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How, precisely? Do I have to make these decisions every time I install an app, every time I exit an app, every time I boot... ?

Finding the best answer to questions like yours is why it is taking Apple so long. Just like cut and paste - everyone complained about the long wait for cut and paste and had a million ideas about how to implement it - virtually all of which were terrible.

Apple had to get cut and paste right the first time, and their solution was ultimately a very natural and elegant extension of the touch metaphor.

How to control the performance and behavior of background apps, as well as the task switching, is a similar problem that Apple wants to get right the first time - not pull the rug out from under us and keep changing the interface.
 
So let me get this straight... the iPhone doesn't have enough battery power for Flash, but it does for multitasking?

If there's anyone left who truly believes the Flash controversy isn't a blatant war between Apple and Adobe, WAKE UP.

-Clive

It is partly that. On the other hand, there are now numbers available for the impact of Flash on Android and WinPhone 7 devices. It is not pretty. At all. Some of these stories were linked to here on MR about two weeks ago, shouldn't be hard to find.
 
Finding the best answer to questions like yours is why it is taking Apple so long. Just like cut and paste - everyone complained about the long wait for cut and paste and had a million ideas about how to implement it - virtually all of which were terrible.

Apple had to get cut and paste right the first time, and their solution was ultimately a very natural and elegant extension of the touch metaphor.

How to control the performance and behavior of background apps, as well as the task switching, is a similar problem that Apple wants to get right the first time - not pull the rug out from under us and keep changing the interface.

Yep. That was precisely my point.
 
Really? So you'll close your apps and open them again just because you're too stubborn to admit multi-tasking has its advantages? :rolleyes:

Let me guess, because you said you don't need copy & paste when the first iPhone didn't support it, you're still writing things down on paper? :D

I agree with him, I don't see the point to multi-tasking, especially when the iPhone has problems handling RAM as it is. With push notifications I just don't see the need. And I thought copy and paste was a great feature to add--this not so much.
 
If there's anyone left who truly believes the Flash controversy isn't a blatant war between Apple and Adobe, WAKE UP.

Jobs has pretty much already said it's an ideological war. He wants Flash to die, and he thinks he has the clout to make it happen.

He's in the unique position where he's actually got the capital to make it happen - an extremely popular platform that he controls. The technology to replace Flash is already there, people just need to transition to it, and we just have to suffer in the meantime.
 
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Some apps (besides the radio apps) do need to be able to run in te background. 2do, my task manager, is a good example. It displays badges showing # of tasks for the day. But since it can't run in the background, I have to open it each day to get the new day's total to appear. Sure, that's a small thing, but it's just one example. Clock apps are another - how much more useful is apple's clock app because it can run in the background? Would be nice if third party clocks could too.

Then there are the apps with passcodes - for me, that's 2do, air sharing, and msecure. Let's say I'm looking at a doc in air sharing and want to check it against an email in mail. It's annoying that I have to put in the passcodes again when I go back to air sharing.

These are little things, but they do make a difference in the overall experience. I loved my iPhone before cut and paste, but it's so much more functional now. Same thing here. I think the people who say you "need" multitasking on a phone are ridiculous. I have it on my bb, and it's useful, but hardly essential. It's just a matter of "if apple can do it, why not?"

tho on the ipad, I do think it's essential, if only because of iWork. You can't effectively use a word processor without multitaskng.
 
I think that is background processes are used along with Push notifications, that could work quite well. There is really only one application for background processes that I can identify and that is streaming audio. So if we continue to use push notifications for IMs, Facebook, ESPN, etc and only allow one streaming audio app to run in the background at a time, that should not make for a really bad user experience.
 
I think that is background processes are used along with Push notifications, that could work quite well. There is really only one application for background processes that I can identify and that is streaming audio. So if we continue to use push notifications for IMs, Facebook, ESPN, etc and only allow one streaming audio app to run in the background at a time, that should not make for a really bad user experience.

Here are a couple more: GPS apps that provide driving directions, "check in" apps like foursquare and google latitude, and the plethora of apps that currently don't exist like apps that keep track of your location to do things or provide alerts or information related to your location (a simple example: an app that detects you are stuck in traffic and automatically adjusts your calendar or sends a notification to other meeting participants.)

Other examples are apps that detect the presence of other nearby iPhones and react accordingly, for example by automatically exchanging business cards or popping up networking information ("you are connected to someone here through friend X").
 
I think that is background processes are used along with Push notifications, that could work quite well. There is really only one application for background processes that I can identify and that is streaming audio. So if we continue to use push notifications for IMs, Facebook, ESPN, etc and only allow one streaming audio app to run in the background at a time, that should not make for a really bad user experience.

Location based services have suffered because of the lack of background processes. There are lots of potential uses for sending GPS data to a server and getting data pushed to your phone when your position triggers an event, but we'll never know what could have been created until we have the ability.

Leaving apps open in your pocket for this isn't an option. Those are the apps that get used once or twice as a gimmick or a tech demo then are forgotten.
 
Your iPhone didn't have to be laggy... you just chose to install 3.0 on it. I'm running 2.2.1 on my iPhone 3G and it's smooth as butter.

Just saying. You don't HAVE to have lag.

I run 3.1.2 on an iphone "2G". it's really smooth. Only opening sys prefs and notes takes "a while"...
 
2do, my task manager, is a good example. It displays badges showing # of tasks for the day. But since it can't run in the background, I have to open it each day to get the new day's total to appear.

Ahhh. Finally a non-Pandora, non-fringe example. That's a really good one. It had never occurred to me before now that a third-party app can't throw up a scheduled notification, because I personally use the built-in calendar for that. But that's a very good example.

Except that's not really "multitasking," is it? That's more like your app schedules a task to be run at a specific time, or after a specific interval, then hands that task off to the operating system. The app stops running until that task is scheduled to run, then the OS fires it off. In the meantime, your process is not actually running, which guarantees that it's not sucking up resources like RAM or power.

I agree, that would be a really cool feature to have in the iPhone OS — assuming it's not there already; I'm just assuming it isn't. But it would be a really lousy idea to get to that feature by implementing this "run a bunch of crap in the background" idea that keeps getting floated around.

Then there are the apps with passcodes - for me, that's 2do, air sharing, and msecure. Let's say I'm looking at a doc in air sharing and want to check it against an email in mail. It's annoying that I have to put in the passcodes again when I go back to air sharing.

Badly designed app is badly designed. Why do individual apps need passwords? The phone itself can have a password, at the owner's discretion.

tho on the ipad, I do think it's essential, if only because of iWork. You can't effectively use a word processor without multitaskng.

I couldn't disagree more. I haven't used iWork on an iPad, so I can't speak to how it will work. But if it near-instantly saves state whenever you press the home button, and near-instantly restores state when you touch the app icon, then you'll never notice that it's not running.

This is the thing I think most people are totally not getting about "multitasking." An app that's running in the background is doing something. If I'm working in my suite (as I will be as soon as my clients get here, the lazy bums) and I kick off a render, I can switch to another application. After Effects or Final Cut or Smoke continues to render in the background; it's doing something.

But if I were writing something in Pages and I switched to another application, Pages wouldn't be doing anything in the background. At least not anything that it actually needs to be doing. It might tick over periodically to make sure there's no input waiting for it or something, but that's just wasting electricity really.

If — and this is a crucial "if" — on your iPad switching apps via the home button is near-instantaneous, then there's absolutely no virtue in keeping an app like Pages running in the background. To the contrary, it's just a waste of memory and battery power to do so.

That's what I was talking about when I said we need to reach a consensus about what "multitasking" means. So far it means actually running more than one app at a time (the Pandora case), quickly switching between apps (your Pages case), and asynchronous scheduled events (your to-do case). These are three totally different things. Lumping them all under the blanket term "multitasking" and then proposing a really lousy solution to cover all three isn't going to get anybody anywhere.
 
I couldn't disagree more. I haven't used iWork on an iPad, so I can't speak to how it will work. But if it near-instantly saves state whenever you press the home button, and near-instantly restores state when you touch the app icon, then you'll never notice that it's not running.

But if half your apps are designed this way, and the other half aren't, you're going to have a fractured, frustrating experience. The whole purpose of an OS is to give us a base set of behaviors we can rely on.

If the apps can simply be allowed to suspend, even without background processing, everything gets to take advantage of the state restore ability. You don't have to maintain a mental list of which will and which won't, you just switch with confidence.

Keep in mind that iPhone OS already does this for Apple blessed apps and the limitation is currently an artificial one.
 
I dunno, man. Mine's an original iPhone, the now-extinct 4 GB model, and I just tried it with Mail and Safari as I described above. It was as fast as I am. If it went faster, the phone would be waiting on me.

See, Mail never loads that fast for me, but I have eight email accounts. I agree that my use cases are fairly niche, but there's plenty of us with niche use cases that could all be solved with the same implementation.

Replacing a button press and a tap with a non-obvious gesture and a task manager app and a hell of a lot of OS infrastructure seems like a lot of work for no tangible benefit to me. But what do I know. I'm not a computer nerd, I'm just a regular person.

It's not really about being a nerd or a regular person. When the iPhone was brand new, all of the gestures were new to everyone... but because they are so natural and intuitive, they soon became familiar to everyone - from your grandma to your dorky programmer friend.

We're already used to holding, tapping and swiping. I'm sure Apple will think of something unique enough to avoid confusion yet simple enough that anyone can do it.

I don't want the full OS-style multi-tasking some people are alluding to. I would like to have the option of keeping two or three apps open at once so I can listen to music while performing some of my day to day tasks.
 
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lol, the first two things you want are on the 3gs, the third won't be on the 4g, and the fourth is software that the 3gs will get.

It boggles my mind that people are still saying the 3gs was not a substantial upgrade. It was far, far more significant than 2g to 3g (though that was important too). I don't think anyone who has spent significant time with both models would ever say that.

So true. I didn't like the iphone 3G because it was SLOW. The new CPU, more ram, and more 32gb size of the 3GS is what made me finally get an iphone.
 
this will be a software update that will work fine on the 3GS.

I can't wait to see the look on friend's faces when this is announced, because from the day the iPad was announced I told them that the iPad doesn't make sense without multitasking, and therefore it will come to both the iPhone and iPad in OS 4.0. They didn't believe me, but its coming.

I'm looking forward to the update.
 
Why? You missed out on over a year's use of the 3gs, and any new OS will work on the 3gs as well - it's a software feature.

I got the 3G when it launched in Canada, and I'm tied to a 3 year contract. Which means I will be skipping this gen of iPhone as well. *sigh* I have to wait until next year to get an iPhone at the $199/299 price.
 
On iPhone, I'm guessing muli-tasking will be done by a three finger swipe down the screen on an app to "close" it, possibly accompanied by holding the home button. Then it'll run in the background with the icon badged indicating it's running. I think that our current method of pressing the home button to quit an app entirely will remain.
 
If the apps can simply be allowed to suspend, even without background processing, everything gets to take advantage of the state restore ability.

They can. There are already iPhone apps which do this. Tweetie, just to name one example of an app I just used not ten seconds ago which does this.

The capability is there. Some apps don't do it? Those apps could stand to be improved. But what's Apple supposed to do? Reject all apps from the App Store which don't implement this totally standard, built-in, right-there-in-the-API feature?

See, Mail never loads that fast for me, but I have eight email accounts.

I have one, a Gmail account that's set up like an Exchange account for push purposes. So maybe I'm the one who's out on the fringe that way, I really dunno. Is there any way to even guess what fraction of iPhone owners have more than one email account, or how their email accounts are set up? I have no idea what the most common case is there.
 
I could care less what many think. This is what is needed most for the iPhone. Flash is at the very last on the list. This is a news story and not where Jobs is on the richest list.

I can't wait!
 
I can count the number of times I have used cut and paste on one hand as well. That is because I am something of a mutant with far too many fingers.

:D

That's cool, I'm glad you use the feature - I'm sure there are others that do. I'm just not one of them. But that makes neither you nor me a mutant with too many/too few fingers.

It means we all use the device differently. But I don't pretend that the way I use it is the only right way, and so anything that I'm missing MUST be missed by everyone and Apple is just being stupid.

Some of the reason that Apple devices hit the sweet spot for ease of use is that they don't try to be all things to all people. They try to keep the user-interaction as simple as possible, and to the extent they succeed is shown by the number of mom's and grandma's that I know whose first smart phone was an iPhone.

It's always a balancing act - but if in order to bring on multi-tasking, they would have to give up some ease of use, I would see it as a bad trade off. I'm not saying they would have to, but it is certain imaginable.
 
Ahhh. Finally a non-Pandora, non-fringe example. That's a really good one. It had never occurred to me before now that a third-party app can't throw up a scheduled notification, because I personally use the built-in calendar for that. But that's a very good example.

That's a big one, not being able to run an app at a preset time. Take an app that should wake up and display a picture of the next pill to take. On other phones, it's easy. On iPhone, you have to finance a server somewhere that can send a notification at the correct time and hope the user opens the app. And if you're out of range, like on an airplane, it all fails to work.

As for apps actually running in the background, some examples are apps that watch for coded text messages to do certain things. Or automatically change wallpapers to match the weather. More commonly, background apps that watch your location and change the phone profile automatically.

Or automatically text your kids to let them know that you're five minutes away from picking them up at school. Lots of things that the iPhone cannot do, and other phones can.

If — and this is a crucial "if" — on your iPad switching apps via the home button is near-instantaneous, then there's absolutely no virtue in keeping an app like Pages running in the background.

Not only is it a crucial "if" that fails to happen with all iPhone OS apps, but you didn't take into account searching for each app icon again to restart it. If your editor is on one icon page and your other app two pages away, the switch is both obvious and obnoxious.

Another biggie is keeping context. If I search for a restaurant in one app, then want to see its menu, I'm usually taken to the browser to read it. Now I want to go back to the next restaurant.

On other phones I just click a back button and I'm instantly looking at my results again, exactly where I was. On the iPhone, I have to go find and restart the search app and hope it kept state. It's not fun at all. Quite primitive, in fact.

To the contrary, it's just a waste of memory and battery power to do so.

Idle background tasks don't use battery, just memory space.

The real waste is using up battery power and flash read/write cycles to needlessly save state and restart apps all the time.

As for general multitasking, I can easily run ten or more apps (I think someone got to 50 in a test of a Pre Plus with more memory) on my wife's Palm Pixi. And just as easily manage them.
 
Idle background tasks don't use battery, just memory space.

If they're properly coded. Developers have to properly respond to the "I am no longer the foreground app" message and do things like inhibiting pointless drawing code (including code that decides what to draw - the OS, of course, can inhibit calls to drawRect: ), disabling timer messages (or decreasing their frequency), and possibly releasing memory for things that can quickly be reallocated when needed.

(They needn't waste physical memory space, of course - they can be swapped out).

Of course, an exciting next stage in all this would be the ability for apps to communicate with each other other than by the existing URL mechanism. iPad already adds something in this regard, but, for example, multi-tasking is the first step in allowing plug-ins.
 
I'll welcome multitasking, but personally I think the iPhone notification system is the biggest issue they need to fix in OS 4.0! Anyone agree?
 
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