More Details on Apple's Intel Mac

[poundsmack]

on the plus side Intels on board graphics are actualy really really good (not including the older Intel extreme line)

 

[Balin64]

Dudes... and girls...I am still in Shock

I need at least a few months to assimilate this. This may be great, or it could be the end of something great.

Only time will tell...

"There are places I remember, all My Life though some have Changed..."

 

[sw1tcher]

Illegally bend the rules so you can get what you want. Childish. Most of you people had a silver spoon in your mouth since you were born so you're not used to NOT getting what you want. People like you delusionally think you are making a statement for the end user when all you're doing is making it more difficult for honest ethical people to use hardware and software they legitimately paid for because companies are trying to protect themselves from selfish spoiled brats like yourselves. We end up paying more and jumping through more hoops so you people can "buck the system". You are truely a rebel!

So what you're saying is that companies should protect themselves from people like iBunny, that iBunny shouldn't be allowed to modify or tweak a computer that they've "legitimately paid for" and now own? That's absurb. Without all the tinkerers and tweakers out there, we would not be where we are today.

What would've happened if Jobs and Woz were not allowed to "bend the rules of computing?" Apple would have probably never gotten off the ground.

 

[gid79]

Doesn't iTunes already run on intel?

How does iTunes run since it is still carbon?

Apple has been shipping an intel version of iTunes for a good while now. I'd image it's the easiest carbon app to port, as they must have already sorted out all the byte swapping stuff.

Just a guess.

 

[sw1tcher]

Does any one have a link to that CNBC thing. I must have miss it.

Just watch the keynote

 

[beatle888]

That is because the computer was tucked away where you couldn't see it.

i cant believe you posted that. do you think? at all?

 

[poundsmack]

does anyone know when Intel will release "pentium 5" and leave the mess that is the P4?

 

[vollspacken]

I just don't like the idea of leaving PPC hardware. I don't like the idea that some software starting in two years won't run on my Mac (sure, existing stuff will come with fat binaries, but the new stuff will no more come with fat binaries than new OS X applications that were released 1.0 after 10.1 came out were released with OS 9 implementations), which I spent $3000 on in part because I figured I could get 6 years out of it; I don't like the idea that Apple is going with a supplier who has a reputation for going for quantity, not quality. Possible changes with lower probability that I really don't like - if the final boxes have much in common with these developer boxes, I don't like the idea of a Mac that can run Windows natively (believe me, that will HURT OS X, not help it; people don't buy an OS because it's a good OS, they buy it because it can run the software they need - the Betamax effect), I don't like the idea of a generic BIOS rather than Open Firmware (I work with generic BIOSes all day long, and they suck; open firmware is much, much easier to deal with), I don't like the idea of Apple loosening control over their hardware platform, which I think may be inevitable with the switch to Intel hardware (even if they do intend the shipping systems to have open firmware, etc.), and which I think will soon enough put us in the same kind of driver hell Windows users have been experiencing. I bought a Mac because I'm SICK of dealing with the problems with Intel boxes - regardless of what OS they're running (yes, some issues are hardware related, not software). Finally, the idea that the developer boxes have integrated video scares me.

If the new Mactel boxes are anything like the developer boxes, which may mean easy OS X hacks to beige box systems or easy install of Windows on Mac systems, I don't see much of a future for Apple as a computer company. Let's hope Steve's much vaunted business acumen doesn't fail him on that score.

exactly my thoughts

vSpacken

 

[broken_keyboard]

I find the comment that Windows will install on these new Macs interesting.

Maybe Apple are not going after Microsoft after all, but rather after Dell. Selling Mac industrial design hardware to Windows users = $$$

 

[vollspacken]

you guys can pour over specs and theories and rumors all you want; it means absolutely nothing. all you have to consider is we're talking about steve jobs here, the guy who had the robots in the NeXT factory re-painted 9 times because the color wasn't right (...) that's all i need to know.

you do know what happened to NeXT's hardware business, don't you???

vSpacken

 

[sokalegga]

relaax

you do know what happened to NeXT's hardware business, don't you???

vSpacken

Guys relax

First of all let me introduce myself: I am a graphics/web designer from Greece, that works on a PC (yeah I'am on the other side of the fence for now), but would be very eager to switch on the "white side" for good after Steve Job's announcement

Remember: I DEFINITELY don't want to launch a war here!! I am fed up of the Mac vs PC bout quite some time now-and I almost lost a good friend after escalating the...hmmm...attacks to personal level.

I have, however used macs for a looong time during my studying in UK since all the computers were Apple ones-naturally for and Art and Design faculty.

My experience however was not very nice, since their latest "achievement" was buying G4s with 256 megs RAM and OS 9 on 'em. I was using mostly Photoshop 6.0 and Flash MX and the thing was moving on a snail's pace compared to my P4@ 1.8 Ghz and 512MBs (probably lack of RAM?)!! I initally thought that the whole Apple thing was a hoax and I 'd never look on the other side of the fence again.

HOWEVER I checked the same systems with 256+ added and OSX 10.3 back in Greece and they were running extremely better than the crappies I have seen. Everything smooth and crisp-and better than my P4 for shure...So once again, it becomes obvious that the OS makes a huge difference on almost the same system!!

Now, if you don't now it already, you CAN run OSX 10.4 on a PC, using the PearPC emulator. Granted, it runs on 15% (at best) of an original G4, but the reactions of most PC users was "F**k MS!! i am a swtichaaa". Remember Apple has done NOTHING till this day, to stop development of PearPC.

But since Apple is moving to intel architecture, i am pretty sure that the problems facing PearPCs developers will be instanlty eliminated: all the cumbersome processor command translation code will diminish and it will be MUCH faster-but still an emulator.

New Apples will be a lot cheaper than the G series models since it was the mobo-CPU combination that skyrocketed the prices. Every other component was standard (HDD, RAM, DVD etc). And yes you can load a custom Bios picture-or even an animation if you want!!!

So you'll got

-Cheap Apples
-PC geeks running emulated OSX (well they already do...)
-And cumbersome PC users using Xpees..

What happens next? The geeks want the real thing (with XP running natively), Apple sales skyrocket, and Leopard becomes an instant classic-a trend like iPOD. And even more switchers appear.

Microsoft doesn't give a f"rt and they shouldn't because, the ain't gonna loose their Office afficionados. They got Xbox 360 already running with PS3 not officially launched. they 've got Media centers, PocketPCs and Tablets-as well as Longhorn in the way.

You say it "won't run on a stndrd PC". Well I am sure the hardware lock/firmware/keylock will be certainly bypassed and many people will install OSX on their machines. Pirated copies? Sure!! And Jobs WILL allow that...at least for the small fish. Why? Appreciation of the OS!! What about the hardware?

Well, honestly, only crappers would buy a cumbersome DELL tower to install OSX..Remember: Skoda Fabia is almost identical to VW Polo and the same goes with Octavia and VW Passat since VW is producing both cars. Have VW sales dropped a bit? No way!! A VW will always be a VW. Same goes with this case: "hey, you can buy a Mactel from HP, but the real thing is muuch better"

About viruses: ask any Linux/Unix user if they have ANY problem with viruses. Ask any server admin what OS they are using for secure server side apps: UNIX folks, since it is the most secure system today. OSX is using a very much modded OpenDarwin architecture which is in turn, based on UNIX. I don't see any virus problems.

Count me in after a year or so. I say Long live Steve

 

[broken_keyboard]

You say it "won't run on a stndrd PC". Well I am sure the hardware lock/firmware/keylock will be certainly bypassed and many people will install OSX on their machines. Pirated copies? Sure!! And Jobs WILL allow that...at least for the small fish. Why? Appreciation of the OS!! What about the hardware?

This is actually a huge concern of mine - Apple makes most their money from hardware, so pirated OS X running on beige boxes would be a disaster.

And experience with Fairplay should tell them they won't be able to stop it. A hardware dongle is no more secure, because it is still only a software change to disable checking for the dongle. Only having the whole thing coded for another processor gave them real security.

 

[johnc8117]

I switched and I'm happy

I recently switched from Windows to the Mac (first a mac mini which then made me realise how cool Mac OS X is, and now I have a 12" powerbook). I think that it an excellent move by Apple - they are giving themselves much more flexibility for the future. If they decide to sell OS X to people outside of Apple, then they will have the capability to do so. People, myself included, buy a Mac primarily for the OS and secondly because they look so cool. Would I still buy hardware from Apple even if Mac OS X was available on other machines - probably is the answer. Just think about this too though - how many people out there would EASILY switch to OS X if they just had to pop to their nearest computer store and pick up a copy of OS X? These days I think that there would be a huge amount of people. I can't understand these people who are whining so much - they are the same people who complain about any kind of change.

Oh, before anyone attacks me for not really knowing much about Appe, I bought my first Mac in 1989 and only stopped using them in 1998 due to the work I was doing and the software I needed. OS X does everything I need thanks to the Unix base and I'm starting to move our entire (small) company over to it

 

[Claudia]

My friend asked me if this means, that 3rd party Mac parts will be made. I dont know much about anything on this topic, but i just thought id throw this in the mix and see what y'all had to say about it

 

[emulator]

And experience with Fairplay should tell them they won't be able to stop it. A hardware dongle is no more secure, because it is still only a software change to disable checking for the dongle. Only having the whole thing coded for another processor gave them real security.

There are very good dongle protections: Cubase SX3 still haven't been cracked.

 

[Zaty]

With regard to OS X running on standard PCs. I'm sure Apple is aware of this problem. What can they do to prevent John Doe running OS X on his Dell? They could use some sort of dongle soldered on the mainboard which the OS X boot loader uses to verify if it's allowed to run on that particular computer. That of course doesn't mean some hackers couldn't find a way to manipulate OS X to make it run on any PC. That's a risk Apple has to take. Such a solution, ONTH, would also mean you couldn't install a non-altered retail copy of OS X on your PC. That's what's most important to Apple. Obviously, pirated and altered copies of OS X would appear on the net before long. Whenever Apple releases an update, they could make sure, the update blocks OS X again. Anyway, those copies would only be used by people who wouldn't buy a Mac under any circumstances, so the potential loss for Apple is marginal. Apple can't prevent people from running unlicensed copies of OS X completely. I'm sure even today, not every copy of OS X being used is licensed.

 

[freechris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sour_grapes

It's too bad IBM is so silent on this whole Apple x86 mess. It would be hilarious to have a counterpoint to the barrage of Apple spin.

IBM's response to apple announcement

Earlier today, Apple informed its developers that the
company will begin a phased shift to Intel chip
architecture for its Macintosh products, starting in
2006. Analysts will debate the logic of the switch
and press reports will speculate over Apple's
motivation as it held just under 2 percent of the
worldwide PC market in 2004 according to IDC. While
we value the Apple business and are proud of the
award-winning processors we have created for them, we
are also committed to holding the line on a strategy
of deep partnerships that make sense for IBM and our
Systems and Technology business.

Power processors have tremendous momentum,
particularly in the fast growing gaming space, with
our architecture selected as the engine behind all
three next-generation consoles from Sony, Microsoft
and Nintendo. In addition, we have excellent
opportunities in industry-specific applications
through Engineering and Technology Services for
medical imaging, CAD design and computer simulation,
security and defense – each with a unique need for the
extreme processing power. Most importantly, Power is
the engine behind many of our leading eServer and
Total Storage products, including eServer pSeries, the
industry's fastest growing UNIX systems, and the Blue
Gene/L supercomputer that tops the list of the 500
fastest supercomputers in the world.

As will be evident at our Power.org event later this
week in Barcelona, we are also opening up and bringing
the Power architecture to a new generation of devices,
from supercomputers to handhelds.

It's important to note the Apple business represents
only a single digit percentage of our OEM
Microelectronics wafer starts and revenue.

 

[broken_keyboard]

There are very good dongle protections: Cubase SX3 still haven't been cracked.

Maybe... but it seems that no matter how complex the dongle or the interaction with it, and some point in the code will be a simple branch that asks "did we pass?" and if the hacker can find that and hard code a "yes," it is all for nothing.

 

[MattG]

It's important to note the Apple business represents
only a single digit percentage of our OEM
Microelectronics wafer starts and revenue.

Oooh....snap

 

[Ghibli]

But there is no reason why they can't be "standard wintel" boxes either. Closing the system costs money, won't work, and worse keeps the market share down and the money down for Apple.

Apple will have the best and cheapest solutions for OSX. But there is absolutely no reason to try and prevent somebody from installing on a standard wintel box. Other than to poke out your eye to spite your face.

Apart that an Apple executive said that OSX WILL NOT BOOT on a standard Wintel box...

 

[Mod_Edit]

Wooohaaa

I need at least a few months to assimilate this. This may be great, or it could be the end of something great.



May be great? WILL be great. I admit I know jack about the whole hardware-dev-mobo stuff,. but I do know something about business strategy (it's my profession for pete's sake). This move to use Intel chips (if that's the technical idiots term) is the very reason Steve Jobs is idolized and Bill Gates is simply a guy who made a lot of money.

I *love* the fact that S.J. is allowing a dual boot enviroment, I've noticed some don't. Apple makes most of it's PRtM from the sale of hardware. OSX is great, but hardware is the money maker. Win/Win situation. A) Absolute confidence that new users will love osX so much Windows won't be given a second thought and B), Even if they don't like osX,. Apple still made money. "Let them eat cake! If they don't like the cake,. oh well. We still charge them for the plate." Good timing or well planned good timing,. these computers will be out before or close to the same time Frighorn or whatever the stupid "Code" name for the next Windows .... thing... is, and what better way to say "Come this way"?

I'm a Mac lover. Altho *gag* I'm, at this moment, using a Dell laptop because the G4 madness still existing in a Powerbook kinda made me a little osX is fantastic, dual boot or not, Mac users aren't going to be tainted by Windows.

 

[DeepIn2U]

My Concerns regarding porting to Intel cpu's

1st Let me iterate that I'm a user, Windows, and will be switching to Mac this summer; regardless. I'm not a programmer. However I have many concerns.

Quotes are from another thread that is related.

Who effectively "showcased" the PowerPC before Apple? PowerPC became a household name because of Apple's use in Macs. Apple's advertising pumped and promoted it. Apple's benchmarks of it again the Xeon etc. showed it's speed, power and capabilities. Apple is not leaving IBM because of it's unusable chip. Apple is leaving IBM because IBM has told Apple that they mean nothing to IBM now that IBM has BIG CUSTOMERS like Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony. Apple is leaving IBM because of broken promises. Steve Jobs does not like to be thought of as a second fiddle to MS and company, but that is how IBM has treated Apple. Thanks Steve for all your help (and advertising dollars) in showing the world what our processor can do, now shoo ... shoo fly!! We want the money now!!

What perplexes me is what should we expect from Intel in terms of a long term marriage if the big $$ comes from Microsoft and Suse Linux; German government is overhauling ALL computers to use SUse - huge contract on Intel/AMD cpu's. Who's to say that Intel won't do the same thing that IBM has done in the past & currently, Apple STILL went back to the dumped girlfriend that is IBM. (they did dump the G3 for the G4 then back with the G5)

Now just because Apple is going to Intel cpu's HOW does that mean that we're automatically gonna get cheaper Mac's?? Sure reduce prices over each term is a given and has already been so for the past 3 years; or at least better performance/package for the previous iterations pricing. Apple will more than likely go with their own design for chipset - to ensure lockout of just slapping Tiger to a competitors PC. Also, Intel's chipset will not support most of what Mac users currently do today; Target Disk Mode for user preferences/home folder swapping (not possible with Windows), Options Boot, etc. Furthermore, FireWire 800 isnt a standard connector on Intel Mobos. Not sure what else is highly unique to Macs but those I've mentioned will increase price of a comparative Intel mobo thats made for the Mac.

My concerns are ... what about the usefulness of Apple OS and iLife apps. I've seen posts that they work, but are they any qwerks. iTunes for PC doesn't allow you to cut pieces of an MP3 like I've seen done on a Mac - something I'd like to use for ringtones on my Nokia. What are the future implementations of Bluetooth v2 going to be on Intel Mobo's and how is that gonna work with Mac. What are the implementations of the Pentium-M based Intel (Yonah?) - essentially a Centrino - with regards to compatibility with AirPort Express/Extreme; because the chipsets either the same or not (Broadcomm) are very proprietory and usually are not compatible even amongst Wireless Routers/Cards with the existing Mac Airport Extreme/Express. What about how other unique features that switchers have likened and Mac-faithful are used to in OS X or iLife, are they working the same on these developer boxes, if not, and/or should we expect them to work in shipping systems? Most importantly how is the technology Spotlight going to be able to work on the Intel based Macs'? Is this partially cpu specific? Is the future of Mac OS X still going to be coded with Objective-C or is every programmer going to have to go back to school, slowing development time?? How will my Mac formatted iPod react with this new Intel cpu based mobo?

Developers want to assure us users that its not a big thing to hold on and wait. Thanks, and thats good advice, but is it advice meant to only hold people to the Mac OS for fear of lost future sales? Again your using developer kits, so unless you've too have got a working system there is no way to assure me, the user, that what you recompile will work sweetly on a shipping Macintel system. However, I do have faith in you developers, you've shown the world that your the best as they come. Just remember when you compile and see a spinning beach ball and determine for how long it spins is acceptable, the users point of view on this while running other applications. This I feel isn't really respected from a Windows application developers point of view. Sure you'll hear Windows users say that multitasking is capable and sweet; but the reality is some apps hang until another app has finished with the system calls, or whatever. I see hanging on my system and other much faster Intel 32-bit systems and I'm guessing its the OS and the apps not respecting one-another.

Microsoft's Mac Business Unit has mentioned that we should see "much" more features in Entourage. Will I be able to use Entourage like Windows 2003 server for wireless sync of a BlackBerry or even a PocketPC, natively?? Will I be able to seemlessly sync calender/tasks/notes/journals/etc with MS Outlook ?? Not sure if this latter mention can already be done.

All in all when it comes time for me to upgrade this years purchase of a G5, will the Mac OS that I'm used to still be essentially the same core - Spotlight included; along with applications updated? Oh yeah, isnt Intels SSE3 already been implemented since the first Pentium4 and nothing new?? Can a developer explain in lamens terms how it can be advantageous to the Velocity Engine??

 

[Infinity]

This is indeed very interesting. I can just imagine the new Powerbook running on the latest Pentium M @ 2.5Ghz by the time it comes out...NICE!

Just don't know about the whole naming of "Mactel" though, kinda sounds like a phone company

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

"The tested Cell as well. That processor is NOT intended for PC applications. (it was designed for game systems, not as a general use CPU) The lack of out of order execution and ILP control logic creates very poor performance with existing software."

If this is true, then why would IBM be bringing out a high-end Cell workstation?

Here's why:

The Cell processor from Sony, Toshiba and IBM is this year's most awaited newcomer on the CPU market. It promises unprecedented performance in the consumer and workstation market by employing a radically new architecture. Built around a 64 bit PowerPC core, multiple independent vector processors called Synergistic Processing Units (SPUs) are combined on a single microprocessor.

Unlike existing SMP systems or multi-core chips, only the general purpose PowerPC core, is able to run a generic operating system, while the SPUs are specialized on running computational tasks. Porting Linux to run on Cells PowerPC core is a relatively easy task because of the similarities to existing platforms like IBM pSeries or Apple Power Macintosh, but does not give access to the enormous computing power of the SPUs.

Only the kernel is able to directly communicate with an SPU and therefore needs to abstract the hardware interface into system calls or device drivers. The most important functions of the user interface including loading a program binary into an SPU, transferring memory between an SPU program and a Linux user space application and synchronizing the execution. Other challenges are the integration of SPU program execution into existing tools like gdb or oprofile.

A model has been proposed to provide an interface that attempts to integrate well into the existing set of Linux system calls and enable software authors to easily integrate the use of SPUs into their own libraries and applications.

from Linux Tag which was linked from IMB's Power Architecture Community Newsletter, 08 June 2005. It seems they've encounted some problems, when it coems to harvesting the (enormous) powers of the Cell for general purpose computing. Also, look at the heat sinks on the proposed Cell based Blade server. Doesn't seem like they will be running any cooler than, lets say, a couple of G5s or even P4s...

I really wanted a Cell-based Mac, but with the latest news I'm actually leaning towards a change of mind...

 

[Platform]

With the right drivers this machine will run cooler than the "PPC PM"

It does not have the fans at the front only one on the CPU, and if apple are clever when they make their product the will keep the same design as the current heat sinks, only that they would be in thinner copper blades, by that the machine could run SOOO quiet