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And my point is obviously that there are alternatives, but they're not from Sony....

The issue here is how you misinterpreted and misrepresented what he was saying:

Sony offers no alternative either. :p

His point: Similar to Apple, Sony offers no alternative.

By responding, "Yes, there are alternatives to..." exudes a challenge in comprehension, as well as a snarky attempt to correct his original statement.

Had you said: "However," instead of "Yes, there are.....", things might have been less problematic.

English 101.
 
Ultimately if these bad boys had a better video card and a high-speed serial interface, they'd be about the best thing since buttered toast. (mmm. buttered toast.)

Even still, I'm HIGHLY considering buying one, since I doubt iMacs with USB 3.0 or light peak will be available for QUITE some time.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong. I want buttered toast too. It's just that I'm holding off until the first of 2010 and I'm hoping (whether or not that's futile is open to debate) that some of the somewhat shortcomings become moot.
 
Excellent numbers.

Now put something in there besides last year's low end video card.

4850 low end? lol, are you a newb or is it just me? The 4850 isnt the NEWEST card but it aint no low end. It can push a 2550x1400 display than it aint no slouch. The 4850 is a HIGH end video card. Just not the highest end. Make no mistake, a 4850 will max COD4 on 1920x1600 or whatever it may be with no problem. Thats not low end dude. A 7300GT is "low end", lol.
 
I don't think Apple would like to get rid of its pro customers as they need to keep up the image that Macs are what drive everything professional ;]

Mac Pros do need an update though or Apple needs to fix price discrepancies.

a Mac Pro update is coming in 2010, don't worry guys. We will drool like always. The pro machine isn't all about speed. Everyone thinks speed is all there is that makes a pro machine. IT IS NOT. Consumers that do college work and Games/rendering etc need stuff done just as fast as pros do. Hence, the consumer level i7 iMac. Apple see's consumers are crying for faster machines and this i7 iMac answers that call. In this day and age of instant gratification consumers want stuff FAST as pros. So much so I see many consumers buying mac pros they don't need.Its the platform Mac Pro users love and the platform that sales them and a true pro sees the advantage of the Mac pro platform.. The mac pro can have 8 displays so it can run a damn theatre. I can have multiple hard drives that are changeable in less than 5 minutes for live broadcasts/netcasts, it offer's the ability to use capture cards like KONA and BLACK MAGIC and other I/O devices. Apple is separating the men from the boys. Now the only people buying mac pros ARE THE PROS. Consumers bought mac pros cause imacs wasn't enough, now the i7 imac is here consumers can go back to buying imacs. Trust me guys, i predict 6 and 12 core mac pro mid 2010.
 
4850 low end? lol, are you a newb or is it just me? The 4850 isnt the NEWEST card but it aint no low end. It can push a 2550x1400 display than it aint no slouch. The 4850 is a HIGH end video card. Just not the highest end. Make no mistake, a 4850 will max COD4 on 1920x1600 or whatever it may be with no problem. Thats not low end dude. A 7300GT is "low end", lol.
The hardware behind the HD 4850 has been at retail since June of 2008. Mentioning the 7300GT is anachronistic at best given today's low end video cards.

a Mac Pro update is coming in 2010, don't worry guys. We will drool like always. The pro machine isn't all about speed. Everyone thinks speed is all there is that makes a pro machine. IT IS NOT. Consumers that do college work and Games/rendering etc need stuff done just as fast as pros do. Hence, the consumer level i7 iMac. Apple see's consumers are crying for faster machines and this i7 iMac answers that call. In this day and age of instant gratification consumers want stuff FAST as pros. So much so I see many consumers buying mac pros they don't need.Its the platform Mac Pro users love and the platform that sales them and a true pro sees the advantage of the Mac pro platform.. The mac pro can have 8 displays so it can run a damn theatre. I can have multiple hard drives that are changeable in less than 5 minutes for live broadcasts/netcasts, it offer's the ability to use capture cards like KONA and BLACK MAGIC and other I/O devices. Apple is separating the men from the boys. Now the only people buying mac pros ARE THE PROS. Consumers bought mac pros cause imacs wasn't enough, now the i7 imac is here consumers can go back to buying imacs. Trust me guys, i predict 6 and 12 core mac pro mid 2010.
Only if you can afford a Mac Pro or quad core iMac of course. The differences are boiling down to a few I/O ones.

I've brought it up before but it's a little depressing to see a $300 Dell be more expansive than an iMac. The ability to have expansion gets tossed around like a pro feature far too often.
 
You guys should actually get to the Apple Store, and take a look at that 27" screen. It's nothing that I have ever seen before. Its a really high quality IPS panel, i5 or i7 with up to 32Gb of ram. That's a pro machine in my book. And the best part, it's still cheaper than the cheapest Mac Pro on the market. You can't even build a hackintosh with that display/spec for that little money.

The iMac only supports 16 GB of RAM. That may actually be a problem: my usual experience is that need for memory goes up about as fast as the ability to cram more of it onto a module, i.e. with Moore's Law. And Apple usually underloads their systems to get people to buy their insanely overpriced RAM, which means an iMac bought now will likely be maxed out in three years and still not have enough. My four-year-old G5 can take up to 16 GB; a current computer ought to be able to do better.

And no, I have no idea what I would do with more 16 GB of RAM (I have 4.5 GB now, and it's mostly sufficient), but I can remember having 5 MB of RAM and having that be sufficient, too, so I think it's reasonable to expect that something will come along that requires it.
 
Its a really high quality IPS panel, i5 or i7 with up to 32Gb of ram. That's a pro machine in my book. And the best part, it's still cheaper than the cheapest Mac Pro on the market. You can't even build a hackintosh with that display/spec for that little money.

Exactly.

I've brought it up before but it's a little depressing to see a $300 Dell be more expansive than an iMac. The ability to have expansion gets tossed around like a pro feature far too often.

Well I think we need to define "pro" here to debate that further. Notwithstanding the folks in this thread, Apple's point, which they've been making since the original Mac 128k, is that 99.9% users DON'T need that expansion. How many people in the community at large ever even open up their mini towers and put in RAM, let alone graphics cards or new drives? If you go into the houses and offices everywhere, mostly you find mini towers with 4 or more USB leads falling out the front or back, connected to cameras, keyboards, mice, iPods, speakers etc etc. When are folks going to realise that the days of the "average" PC user, tinkering around with PCI cards, Soundblasters, "3d accelerators" etc are basically over. PC Gaming is already a niche with every man and his dog now playing consoles. The vast majority of users are quite happy with not having the ability to fiddle with the internals. As as far as "power users" such as gamers go, they usually throw the whole lot out to upgrade anyway. People agonising over CPU sockets like they are really gonna upgrade. Get real, you'll throw out your MB to get USB3 or something else soon enough. They will make sure of it.

The iMac is an appliance. As eMeek77 says, non-pro users still need their "appliance" to be fast especially as we are increasingly playing with large digital images and movies, hence the i5/i7 iMac. Macs keep their value a lot better than windows boxes, so what's not to love.
 
Well I think we need to define "pro" here to debate that further. Notwithstanding the folks in this thread, Apple's point, which they've been making since the original Mac 128k, is that 99.9% users DON'T need that expansion. How many people in the community at large ever even open up their mini towers and put in RAM, let alone graphics cards or new drives? If you go into the houses and offices everywhere, mostly you find mini towers with 4 or more USB leads falling out the front or back, connected to cameras, keyboards, mice, iPods, speakers etc etc. When are folks going to realise that the days of the "average" PC user, tinkering around with PCI cards, Soundblasters, "3d accelerators" etc are basically over. PC Gaming is already a niche with every man and his dog now playing consoles. The vast majority of users are quite happy with not having the ability to fiddle with the internals. As as far as "power users" such as gamers go, they usually throw the whole lot out to upgrade anyway. People agonising over CPU sockets like they are really gonna upgrade. Get real, you'll throw out your MB to get USB3 or something else soon enough. They will make sure of it.

The iMac is an appliance. As eMeek77 says, non-pro users still need their "appliance" to be fast especially as we are increasingly playing with large digital images and movies, hence the i5/i7 iMac. Macs keep their value a lot better than windows boxes, so what's not to love.
Sadly that really only works in Apple's closed, mystery box environment. You break that and everyone is suddenly buying a minitower and display.

Why do consoles always get dragged into this? It's getting rather tiresome. I can imagine someone digging up some doom and gloom from the arcades or how "insert console name here" is going to kill PC gaming from every 10 years in some pattern.
 
can anyone do a comparison between imac i7 and the mac pro octo 2009, with about like 10 power hungry apps open at the same time.

I think the reason the imac i7 came out on top is cause the tests dont take into account multitasking, which I would think the mac pro would be better at, or am I mistaken...
 
Sadly that really only works in Apple's closed, mystery box environment. You break that and everyone is suddenly buying a minitower and display.

Could you elaborate on this? The reason "everyone" is buying minitowers is because as you say, they are $300. It's not because they need the expansion. I'm willing to bet that most folks who own a $300 minitower end up adding an external drive for additional storage anyway, rather than installing it internally. Why? a) it's easy to do and to understand and b) it's portable.

Actually I am wrong about one thing. Everyone is not buying minitowers anymore either. They are buying laptops, either notebooks or netbooks. Why? They don't need the expansion, and they value the portability. Now you may well argue that an iMac is basically a laptop with a big screen that's no longer portable. I'm not arguing you are wrong there. However, at least he 27" model is a good product for the price if you don't need that portability, and DO need a high quality large screen.

Why do consoles always get dragged into this

Because the average person is tired of fiddling with cards and having to upgrade half their system everything they want to get higher fps in games. The myth of the upgradable graphics card is one such. How many times have gamers had to change power supply and/or motherboards just to fit the latest and greatest graphics card? Not to mention the requisite memory which is always constantly changing form factor and interface. Then there's the processor, drives, peripherals etc... as a proportion of the population there are far more "casual" gamers (wii?) than hard core gamers. Casual gamers much prefer consoles.

Here's a perfect example. Earlier in this thread you said that the 4850 "has been at retail since June of 2008", and earlier still called it "lackluster". You also said "welcome to 2008". Well guess what, the Xbox360 has been around since 2005 and is still going strong. That's the sort of product cycle that most people are looking for.
 
That's the one I'm holding out for. eSATA would be nice, but I'll take one with an ATI 5700 without looking back - performance for the 27" i7 is impressive.



Response:



Your response further reveals your deficiencies and challenges in reading comprehension.

HLdan clearly stated: "Sony offers no alternative..."

Sadly for you, your tangents of ranting and whining will do little to compensate.

eSata? Why? Because it's 10 % faster than FireWire 800? There are more ways to USE FireWire than eSata.
 
eSata? Why? Because it's 10 % faster than FireWire 800? There are more ways to USE FireWire than eSata.

Because it's a faster, native way of accessing a disk (or array of disks) with a dirt cheap enclosure, and would cost about $0.05 to implement on any of their machines?
 
Could you elaborate on this? The reason "everyone" is buying minitowers is because as you say, they are $300. It's not because they need the expansion. I'm willing to bet that most folks who own a $300 minitower end up adding an external drive for additional storage anyway, rather than installing it internally. Why? a) it's easy to do and to understand and b) it's portable.

Actually I am wrong about one thing. Everyone is not buying minitowers anymore either. They are buying laptops, either notebooks or netbooks. Why? They don't need the expansion, and they value the portability. Now you may well argue that an iMac is basically a laptop with a big screen that's no longer portable. I'm not arguing you are wrong there. However, at least he 27" model is a good product for the price if you don't need that portability, and DO need a high quality large screen.



Because the average person is tired of fiddling with cards and having to upgrade half their system everything they want to get higher fps in games. The myth of the upgradable graphics card is one such. How many times have gamers had to change power supply and/or motherboards just to fit the latest and greatest graphics card? Not to mention the requisite memory which is always constantly changing form factor and interface. Then there's the processor, drives, peripherals etc... as a proportion of the population there are far more "casual" gamers (wii?) than hard core gamers. Casual gamers much prefer consoles.

Here's a perfect example. Earlier in this thread you said that the 4850 "has been at retail since June of 2008", and earlier still called it "lackluster". You also said "welcome to 2008". Well guess what, the Xbox360 has been around since 2005 and is still going strong. That's the sort of product cycle that most people are looking for.

Eidorian is lost in translation. Nothing new. +1 by the way.
 
What on earth does adding an esata port have to do with the uses of firewire?

Because there is USB for people who don't care and FireWire for everyone else. USB only is the cheapest solution and eSata would be getting the same treatment as FireWire while FireWire can be used for many things there is no need for eSata. And Yes Apple doesn't care what people on MacRumors want.
 
What is the point of even buying a Mac Pro now? Why don't they discontinue it if they have no desire to resurrect it?!

Well, for one thing the imacs don't have pci slots. People in the recording business use Mac Pros specifically for music recording. Most of the popular music recordings you hear today are recorded on ProTools HD systems. The PCI audio cards the engineers use cost around $10,000-$40,000. I imagine that's those Mac Pro's are called Mac Pro's for a reason, they're really for professionals. I imagine there are other professions that use Mac Pro's, film maybe?
 
Because there is USB for people who don't care and FireWire for everyone else. USB only is the cheapest solution and eSata would be getting the same treatment as FireWire while FireWire can be used for many things there is no need for eSata. And Yes Apple doesn't care what people on MacRumors want.

An esata enclosure can (and should) be cheaper than a USB one and is faster than firewire in both latency and throughput.
The sort of consumers that 'care' are the sort of people that do want esata (because honestly, why not?), and the sort of people that you're arguing (with no points) with.

You're right... apple seem to be more concerned about the aesthetics of their systems rather than the feature list (certainly in regards to I/O).
I know what I 'want', and I'm a member of MacRumors and a huge tech enthusiast. Personally I think it's a shame apple aren't building systems for (or that work for) people like me. I think their mass marketed target audience, while good for profit margins, hold back the potential of their machines.
 
The iMac has gone from underpowered laptop on a stick to serious power house in one revision :)

It's great to see that the higher end competes well with the mac pro but I have to rate it as a negative for lack of an express slot.

The express slot, now even missing in the 15 mbp, is to laptops, in a way as pci slots are to towers.

http://emusician.com/hardware/universal-audio-uad-1209/

the above device is just one of many uses the express slot served and what the above does in audio and say logic or pro tools is it takes the load off the CPU allowing for more virtual instruments and so on. Another express slot is one that allows you to attach esata drives. I just wish apple had included the express slot, this would be the fastest way to prowithout having to buy a mac pro. Adding esata too would have been awesome. Now will the extra power compensate for the lack of the above device? Hard to tell as some of these devices can run as high as a MacBook itself and Apple is so close to closing the gap. Now they need to take this tech and release it in a headless system for all those gamers, prosumers, and people with wonderful monitors.


I think this would help apple grow larger. Not take away from mac pro sales at all.
 
Having just purchased a refurbished Macpro 2.66, I was a little freaked by the iMac release. But The ease of installing additional hard drives, the separation of the tower from the display, having a 23" cinema display on hand and the prospects of future upgradability and expansion won me over and have kept me happy.

As for Pro Tools my new MacPro can record 48 stereo tracks at once @24 bit/96k resolution with a full compliment of plug-ins on each channel. The days of all but the high-end Pro Studios needing fancy HD cards are here.

And that's with cheap WD green drives rated for 3Gbps

I wonder if Open Cl will be a factor? Isn't that loading up with Graphics cards for off loading processing? Maybe I'm mistaken.
 
An esata enclosure can (and should) be cheaper than a USB one and is faster than firewire in both latency and throughput.

For people who want more storage without a mess of cables and little boxes, there are multi-disk eSATA enclosures like:

16-111-057-S01
Sans Digital TR5M-B (click to enlarge)

Five hot-swap drives for $199 at Fry's and Newegg, and it includes a two-port eSATA PCIe x1 card (Sil3132).

If Imacs had a PM-capable eSATA port, you'd get up to 10 TB of data at up to 3 Gbps, with only one power cord and one eSATA cable..
 
iMac faster for now...

but not in the long run.

The whole point of SL was to make it easier for application developers to take better advantage of multi-core machines with GCD and GPUs with OpenCL. Over time, as successive versions of applications arrive that have been written within these frameworks we'll see 8-core machines with better GPUs (READ MAC PRO) pull ahead in benchmark tests against quad-core iMacs.
 
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