The problem is that these devices are meant for the general public. They don't read the warnings and then complain that their device is too slow.
i
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
More Rumors of Limited Third-Party Background Apps Coming to the iPhone?
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
The problem is that these devices are meant for the general public. They don't read the warnings and then complain that their device is too slow.
i
One thing has nothing to do with the other. Just because limited the abilities of what you can on the SDK is not indicative of whether the OS is modern or not. The iPhone does not have the RAM (128 MB) currently to multi-task third party apps (just apps). A jailbroke iPhone running backgrounder does work a lot of the time, but sometimes it does not. is not going to allow functionality that will only work most of the time. What you are citing has nothing to do with it. The more modern an OS is, the more power you need. Look at Leopard & Vista. With both of these OS's you now need at least 2GB of Ram to have a great user experience whem in XP/Tiger you could get by with 1GB.
There are much more going on with these newer OS's. Look at the iPhone OS/Android next to Windows Mobile/Blackberry. They are worlds apart They are almost like desktop OS's. Android is even getting pushed to netbooks. The limitation is not in the OS. It is in the hardware they use. In terms of technology the software is actually ahead of hardware. To see true multi-tasking you'll have to wait until next year when ARM/Nvidia release their low power multi-core processors.
MG Siegler yesterday from TechCrunch:
"Owners of the G1, the Android-powered phone that allows robust apps to run in the background, will know what Im talking about. And background apps also eat up processing power. With some high-powered games that now run on the device, system resources are already getting heavily taxed, imagine running one of those with other applications also running."
This has been reported by Ryan Block, Engadget, Leo Laporte, and a whole host of other people. There were constant complaints about the G1 losing battery power overnight while sleeping because the background processes would not shut down.
The iPhones OS is OS X, which is based on Mach-BSD UNIX. It was created as a multi-user, multitasking operating system from day 1 (i.e. 1971). Just because Apple currently doesnt allow it for 3rd party apps to maintain performance on a hardware-constrained initial device doesnt mean the OS wasnt built to handle it. Indeed, many core Apple services on the device do rely on exactly this sort of background processing (Mail fetching, sync, etc. rely on background processing currently a peek at running processes with no visible apps open on a jailbroken phone will reveal exactly this).
It is a ridiculous assumption to say that and Google don't know how to code but Microsoft/ Blackberry does. You are talking about who many consider the best coders in /Google vs what many consider to be the worst in RIM/Microsoft. These OS's debuted within the past two years Do you not think that they couldn't see multitasking as part of their future? The only reason that the Pre is offering background apps is because they're are essentially Safari browser tabs or widgets with hooks into WebOS. Palm's SDK only utilizes HTML & Javascript.
There is a reason why no one still uses browsing heavily on the WM/BB. BB still run a very old browser that is based of Java for God sakes. Hardware manufacturers are skinning WM6/6.5 because it looks old. The only problem is when you go deep into an application, the old interface is still there. WM7 has been worked on for as long as Vista because it is so far behind the other OS's
AT&T would never have any control over what is in the OS or what it can do. That is the one reason they signed with AT&T over Verizon. The only influence AT&T has is with apps that may utilize their network. Apple is not going to limit their OS or the entire App Store for two or three apps.
If the new iPhone is 20% faster and has more memory, and developers could have Apple certify that their app takes less than 10% of the CPU in background mode, then users could run 2 of these specially certified apps in the background on new devices without any slowdown.
Won't work for Pandora because it eats too much CPU to background while a typical user is doing absolutely anything they would want to do in the foreground without any slowdown.
imho
Won't work for Pandora because it eats too much CPU to background while a typical user is doing absolutely anything they would want to do in the foreground without any slowdown.
imho
Hundreds of groups inside and outside Apple are working on new batteries. This is a huge issue for the entire tech world. There is quite a lot of hope that the lifetime of a battery can be increased, as in increasing the number of discharge cycles into the thousands. There is not a great deal of hope of increasing the energy density.
" justflie
Really, I'm not an idiot. Put a little warning that says that running background processes will result in lower battery life and let me determine if lower battery life is worth the tradeoff for increased functionality."
Just stand around the genius bar on a saturday afternoon and listen to the stories people tell. That will give you a much better idea of what Apple is up against. It's not that people are mentally deficient, it's that people are educated in many different knowledge spaces. What seems like common sense for them is not how tech works and vice versa.
Really, I'm not an idiot. Put a little warning that says that running background processes will result in lower battery life and let me determine if lower battery life is worth the tradeoff for increased functionality."
Just stand around the genius bar on a saturday afternoon and listen to the stories people tell. That will give you a much better idea of what Apple is up against. It's not that people are mentally deficient, it's that people are educated in many different knowledge spaces. What seems like common sense for them is not how tech works and vice versa.
I think it is pretty obvious how this is going to go down. The next phone will be essentially the same with the addition of a slightly faster CPU, more ram and a few odds and ends (like compass). The software will be the 3.0 we all know about with a few extras like video.
Next June, however, the upgraded phone will be significantly different and have a much faster CPU. Now here is the key. OS 4.0 will require the June 09 phone as a minimum hardware to run. But, for those who have the June 20010 hardware, OS 4.0 will allow background processes.
So, OS 4.0 will require a faster CPU to run the base applications and OS, but if you have the fastest CPU from 2010, you will have the added features re background processing. Then, over the next few years, upgraded phones will add, among other things, the capability to run more software in the background.
This will allow for significant improvement with minimal unique OS's.
Next June, however, the upgraded phone will be significantly different and have a much faster CPU. Now here is the key. OS 4.0 will require the June 09 phone as a minimum hardware to run. But, for those who have the June 20010 hardware, OS 4.0 will allow background processes.
So, OS 4.0 will require a faster CPU to run the base applications and OS, but if you have the fastest CPU from 2010, you will have the added features re background processing. Then, over the next few years, upgraded phones will add, among other things, the capability to run more software in the background.
This will allow for significant improvement with minimal unique OS's.
It is very simple...
WinMo phones take a HUGE battery hit when things are running the the background. Just look at all the 2X battery packs available for many WinMo phones to confirm this.
My last WinMo phone, a MotoQ, and if you ran a email client replacement in the background, battery life went from 10-12h with light usage to about 4-6 with light usage. Any time the network gets used, the battery life takes a huge hit. It came down to a choice of either push email or being able to use my phone a full day without charging.
If you start listening to music, 2h wasn't even possible, since Windows media player was a huge pig for resources.
Why was I running an email client replacement? WinMo doesn't properly support IMAP up until version 6, so it was impossible to sync email folders without an email client replacement.
Anyone who tells you they are getting great battery life in WinMo with background appls is probably lying, since every WinMo user has had a similar experience to mine with background apps. Pandora is the big complaint I am now hearing, that it kills the battery.
Lots of misunderstandings, misinformation and wrong headedness here.
First let me say that background apps do use battery power in most cases. There is no way around that. The os is going to give the app it's time slice and the app is going to figure out if it needs to do anything every single time it gets that time slice if it isn't already doing something. The exception here is if the OS permits an apps request to be put to sleep or that app is in some otherway blocked from running. Think about it folks an app can't determine if it has something to do unless it is running. It is a given that background apps will load the system.
The performance of the current iPhone sucks ( love it just the same). When the user interface can't keep up with hunt and peck text entry you have issues. Part of this appears to be a regression in 2.xx but I'd be the first to say that the API is a bit thick. It is just about impossible to not see the user interface being heavily impacted by back ground apps. I don't really know if Apple can fix the lag in 3.0, but it is fair to say that the current hardware is strained. One can't really fault Apple for their current approach.
The notification system that is coming is a very good idea for a certain class of apps. It is not however a solution to the issue of multitasking user Apps. Notifications can help limit RF usage which can help battery life, it does nothing for the apps a user might want to multitasking that don't network. The problem is that people seem to misunderstand just how many apps this might be. Depending on the user I could see a person wanting to run several apps in back ground.
Of course all those background apps would run into a big limitation which is iPhone's limited RAM. This is a real problem not to be underestimated. Ideally RAM would be more than doubled in the next revs.
In any event I think Apple realizes some of the limitations above. They know they have an immature platform, both hardware and software wise, thus are very restrictive on what can be done there. They are not wrong in their approach as long as both the hardware and the OS evolve to meet user needs. I just hope they realize there is a real need for multitasking real soon now.
I also would hope that they wise up and supply a user scripting environment as that would work well with multitasking. Ideally Python which would provide for a light weight way to run scripts in background.
Dave
First let me say that background apps do use battery power in most cases. There is no way around that. The os is going to give the app it's time slice and the app is going to figure out if it needs to do anything every single time it gets that time slice if it isn't already doing something. The exception here is if the OS permits an apps request to be put to sleep or that app is in some otherway blocked from running. Think about it folks an app can't determine if it has something to do unless it is running. It is a given that background apps will load the system.
The performance of the current iPhone sucks ( love it just the same). When the user interface can't keep up with hunt and peck text entry you have issues. Part of this appears to be a regression in 2.xx but I'd be the first to say that the API is a bit thick. It is just about impossible to not see the user interface being heavily impacted by back ground apps. I don't really know if Apple can fix the lag in 3.0, but it is fair to say that the current hardware is strained. One can't really fault Apple for their current approach.
The notification system that is coming is a very good idea for a certain class of apps. It is not however a solution to the issue of multitasking user Apps. Notifications can help limit RF usage which can help battery life, it does nothing for the apps a user might want to multitasking that don't network. The problem is that people seem to misunderstand just how many apps this might be. Depending on the user I could see a person wanting to run several apps in back ground.
Of course all those background apps would run into a big limitation which is iPhone's limited RAM. This is a real problem not to be underestimated. Ideally RAM would be more than doubled in the next revs.
In any event I think Apple realizes some of the limitations above. They know they have an immature platform, both hardware and software wise, thus are very restrictive on what can be done there. They are not wrong in their approach as long as both the hardware and the OS evolve to meet user needs. I just hope they realize there is a real need for multitasking real soon now.
I also would hope that they wise up and supply a user scripting environment as that would work well with multitasking. Ideally Python which would provide for a light weight way to run scripts in background.
Dave
So, Pandora, iheartradio, etc. need to run in the background, i get that. So, what needs push? AIM? perhaps facebook (notifications, requests)?
and we should have push with 3.0 right
ok, android has badly implemented multiprocessing. so?
so now you're saying os x is not more modern than the other mobile operating systems, it's more antiquated?
just try to take off your apple shaped specs for a little while, ok?
fact 1: microsoft, rimm, nokia phones: multitasking: check
fact 2: apple phones: multitasking: lacking
ergo, microsoft, rimm, nokia do program better than apple.
simple as that.
if you make an operating system that is "too powerful" for the hardware platform, it's worse by design. not better.
they are doing it. it's a fact. just look at the front page news.
You are wrong.
fact2: apple does not allow third party apps to multitask. Apple's own apps multitask just fine. SMS, Mail, iPod, MobileMe all mutltask just fine. Apple just hasn't let 3rd parties multitask yet. If you want to get around this artificial limitation, you can jailbreak and multitask to your hearts content.
IMHO, the reason Apple wont allow apps like pandora, etc. to run in background is more than just battery life. It entices you to buy the music from iTMS so you can listen to it through the iPod bit. By Apple keeping control of the apps that are allowed to run in the background, allows them to exercise some control over how we source our music. The iTunes store is available on device, so there is no reason not to purchase and listen whilst you're out and about. If pandora could run in background, it would stop the impulse buyers that just buy it as soon as they think of a song. I dont see any application that needs to run in the background (as opposed to having push notifications eg. IM) that Apple would approve.
That being said, I could see Apple using this push-notification to make that the standard way, and then open up background at a later date, so that the majority of existing apps use the push-notification service, rather than waste the work of re-coding to run in background efficiently.
EDIT: Another thing to comment on, people say that the palm Pre can multi-task, but you will find that you can open multiple tabs in iPhone's safari, and have many web-apps all loaded at the same time. There is a limit, but I've had more than 3 loaded.
Then again, this being Apple, anything could happen.
That being said, I could see Apple using this push-notification to make that the standard way, and then open up background at a later date, so that the majority of existing apps use the push-notification service, rather than waste the work of re-coding to run in background efficiently.
EDIT: Another thing to comment on, people say that the palm Pre can multi-task, but you will find that you can open multiple tabs in iPhone's safari, and have many web-apps all loaded at the same time. There is a limit, but I've had more than 3 loaded.
Then again, this being Apple, anything could happen.
Pre's web based applications are much, much more than the web pages you can load in Safari. There is no comparison to Safari's "multitasking" and the Pre's native, true multitasking.
I may be ignorant on this, but how are Pre's web-apps different? I thought they only utilised HTML and JavaScript libraries. By saying true native multi-tasking, on the same hand an iPhone can simultaneously show more than 1 HTML/Javascript page.
Please correct me if I'm wrong though, I've not read too much of the press reports on the Pre.
BTW the link in your sig is just a parked domain.
MotoQ has a tiny, tiny battery. For reference, you can get a 1640mAH extended battery for the Q...but my Samsung Epix came standard with an 1800mAH battery.
With google sync, flexmail running IMAP IDLE, Opera Mobile, and connecting to a Celio Redfly via bluetooth, I end up at around 30% at the end of the day. That's with it off the charger at 6am, on the charger at around 10pm.
Now, I don't do much internet radio streaming or IM, and both of those WILL kill your battery faster. But that's common sense, not a flaw in the entire multitasking process.
Apple knows enough to do whats best for them and the iPhone ecosystem. Allowing background apps initially would have led to disaster (they actually had to add extra code to prevent apps from running in the background). Simple reason is that the iPhone OS is not stable enough, not optimized enough, and the API's are not optimized enough. Battery life would be horrible. You and a small majority of people might have been intelligent enough to work around that (and use BG apps smartly) but the larger public would have shunned it for poor battery life and performance (there are already innumerous complaints about these issues) which would have hurt the iPhone ecosystem by reducing adoption by both consumers and developers.
If Apple is able to optimize their OS enough that they can do this without hurting battery life and performance too much, they will do it...
Thanks for the sig report. I'll fix that.
Well Safari's web apps live in Safari, where the Pre's apps live on the Pre, just like any other application. The pre has API's that allow the web apps to have their own libraries and file systems as well as direct access to a lot of tech in the Pre. Safari's web apps, when memory gets too full, are completely purged from the cache. This means that, unless whatever you were working on was offloaded to the server, you will have to completely start over in what you were doing. Also I don't believe that web apps in Safari continue to function when they are not the focus, rather they freeze where they were at until they become the focus again.
I wasn't aware they were allowing for web-apps to have files system access. The paranoia in me thinks that sounds dangerous. When you say access to the tech, you mean like camera, GPS, those sort of things? I've never really used that many web-apps on safari, so im not sure if it "freezes" the web-app when you change focus. You're defiantly right about it purging the cache when the memory is full though..
And those other OS's you mentioned are well-implemented? With the exception of RIM (which is two steps away from running terminal) all those OS's have consistent stability problems and are well-known for crashing far more than the iPhone and Android.
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Not only is the Mac built on Unix but so is Linux. If you don't understand why people use still use Unix, I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you. Read about it.
Umm...what? If you think multi-tasking is the sum of an OS, then you don't know anything. Your logic is screwed up. What happens with WM,Symbian, RIM, and their current generation of OS's when multi-core processors arrive next year? They will look even worse in comparison to the iPhone next year. That's what you don't get. was building this OS for the long run. Nobody builds an OS so it can last three years. It takes more than that to develop one. I'm going to assume you're a WM user. What happens to all those apps you bought and you upgrade to WM7 next year? Will they all be gone? Will you have to use them through virtualization? If so, get ready to ask why does this phone run so slow.
Combined those OS's that you speak of blow the iPhone away in total sales worldwide. Yet developers have left all three platforms. RIM came out with an app store and very few developed for it (business are BB prime customers and they do not like you installing apps with phone they bought) . No one is developing for Symbian. Why? Because developers know it will not be around for the long run. When the more significantly powerful hardware comes out for it next year, only Android, Palm, and have the software to utilize it's power to the fullest extent.
The thing is most people are already happy with what the iPhone does. If you had actually read what I said the iPhone does run background processes, just not 3rd party. WM has a variety of phones across all carries and they still do not sell as well as the iPhone. You think all those people have "apple shaped specs"? Go look at the Consumer Report ratings on the iPhone.
I have no idea what you are talking about. You should read what I said again. Slingbox is not the name of the iPhone OS, not a part of the OS, nor is it the name of the app store. It is an app. I said the only influence AT&T has is with apps that may utilize their network (ex: Slingbox).
I hated what AT&T did but understand this: the same thing would be going on with those other companies if they had an app store. Once Windows opens up it app store, Microsoft will be under the same pressure that is because they will control the content.
It's more complex than that and nothing appears to have changed with Apple's stance. They now very well that Push Notifications, as great a concept as it is, doesn't work for every app type or process. I suspect future iPhones will be able to run some limited 3rd-apps in the background in a very controlled way, but they might be required to pass additional processing through the App Store and surely won't be available on the original and 3G iPhones. They just don't have enough RAM to support such an operation.
At the link, below, the developer for "Now Playing" on the iPhone under the name Metasyntactic chats up the reasons why backgrounds apps would hurt the iPhone and developers if left to run like they do other smartphones. He also details why coding his app for Android is a problem, especially if other apps are vying for the same limited RAM and CPU. I'd guess that Apple limited number of user-controlled background apps wold also be determined by the amount of RAM needed for the app and for the iPhone system and any called app to be have enough room to operate effectively. So to reiterate, this can't be available for the original and 3G iPhones.
No more dangerous than what Apple is doing. Remember these aren't web apps that you navigate to in the Pre's browser* they are apps that you have installed and given permission to use the Pre's functions.
*does anyone know the name of the browser? I know it's webkit based, but what are they calling it?
I'm not sure I understand your point here. They are localized web apps that utilize HTML5's database feature. These can run over the internet or on the device without access to the internet. Palm's SDK for the Pre is really just a specialized way to make apps using HTML, CSS and JS. These apps will be very limited in comparison to what the iPhone and other smartphones are capable of, but I think it was a smart move for Palm as it is shaping up to be the best competition that Apple has seen. I hope Palm does well with this device if only because I'd hate to see them fold, which may happen if this a flop.
I haven't heard of a name for the browser. The on screen icon just says Web.