More Rumors of Limited Third-Party Background Apps Coming to the iPhone?

[str1f3]

Very unlikely. Think about this. The developer has written an app that requires push notification. He will need to pay Apple, probably a monthly fee. He then charge this cost to the buyers at a one-time charge (when he/she purchases the app). There will come a day in which the app has already been purchased by all intended buyers and no new buyers are coming in (or much lesser buyers). Now, the developer still has to pay a monthly subscription to support the existing users but there is no more/lesser buyers (no more/lesser income to pay the subscription). In this situation, the developer will eat into his previous income (after selling the app to the buyers) to pay future subscription fees.

As such, I believe, end-users who require Push Notification Service will have to subscribe to some 'secret' plan - most likely Apple's mobileMe. This plan will be announced during the keynote presentation.

It's a good point. It doesn't bother me too much since I already have a MobileMe account but I wonder how much money would they charge on a monthly basis. It's also conceiveable that developers could use the in-app payment system to charge a $1 monthly for the service. My guess is that a lot of established companies will be making the most use of this. If Apple were to announce what you were talking about, they would literally be booed off the stage at WWDC.

Thinking about it, I guess there won't be any Twitter push! LOL!

 

[Minimoose 360]

Could see it with the release of the next iPhone with more RAM and higher processing power...

 

[MattInOz]

What types of apps would we actually want to run in the background?

-there are timer-type alerts, and as someone pointed out above, this could be rolled into an API as well, whereby the app would get notified under some condition.

-for location based notifications, I sent this idea in to Apple feedback a year ago or so, but the iPhone is roughly keeping track of your location anyways through changing wifi signals or cell towers. It might be possible to have an app receive a notification when the phone is within a (large) radius of some place.

I'm not even sure what other types of apps I'd want to run in the background. I think the idea of Apple writing lightweight processes that others can opt into should solve almost all of the problems with background processing.

Aren't these the kinds a situations Apple re-engineered and unified all the unix timing system for?
Launchd when it appeared on OS X not only cut boot times but was billed as a way for a program to register with a central controller for time or event based triggering of shell scripts, one place to handle all events.

Launchd must be there as part of the iPhoneOS, but I can understand if they want to careful about allowing access to it. You don't want it getting clogged.

For location based triggers leaving the GPS running might be a killer. Maybe they need some sort of reverse lookup system. That would tell the phone which cell tower or wifi hotspot to expect near the requested location.

 

[jfremani]

GPS apps in the background, please! (loopt, anyone?)

 

[peepboon]

that would be awesom

 

[marksman]

I made that suggestion on MacRumors quite a while ago, and probably multiple times.

I would love it if we could choose one or two slots to put in an app and have it run in the background. This would give us a choice of what we want working in there.

I think this would solve 95% of the issues with being able to run multiple apps. Especially combined with the new alert system.

Maybe one person wants to pop in Pandora as their selected app while doing other things, and someone else wants to have Beejive running all the time while doing something else.

I suspect if they did actually do this, that it would have some pretty strict limits on apps that could do it.

 

[sychee]

It's a good point. It doesn't bother me too much since I already have a MobileMe account but I wonder how much money would they charge on a monthly basis. It's also conceiveable that developers could use the in-app payment system to charge a $1 monthly for the service. My guess is that a lot of established companies will be making the most use of this. If Apple were to announce what you were talking about, they would literally be booed off the stage at WWDC.

Thinking about it, I guess there won't be any Twitter push! LOL!

True. It is highly possible for the end-users to pay a monthly subscription to the developer instead of directly to Apple. No wonder Apple is taking Background apps support away from us. If Apple does introduce Background Apps support, it is like poking a hole in the $$$ filled pocket, isn't it? LOL.

 

[Stella]

Symbian, originating from its EPOC roots, was specifically designed for mobile devices, therefore is a lot more optimized than other such OS devices, and still very much capable as others, if not more.

I read that people have had problems with Symbian but personally, I've never found it unstable and runs background apps just fine. Personally I have around 3 background apps running at all times and I don't lose much battery life, nor does it make my phone unstable. Recharge every 2.5 to 3 days, I don't have 3G enabled.

I respectfully disagree. The Symbian and WM
platforms were essentially developed for 5 year old hardware. It wasn't even until the iPhone came out that everybody started to talk about specs for phones. The chips that will start to come out later this year from the likes of ARM and Nvidia are really the first results of the iPhone influence. Essentially since the iPhone introduction at Macworld, Apple has had to live off the same chip for the past three years with only deifference being processor speed.

.

I'm so glad that Symbian is coming together under one roof.. There was only ever one Symbian but had several UIs on top.. which made them incompatible with each other... the major being UIQ ( Quartz ), S60 ( Nokia ).

Nokia's strategy makes sense actually. Continue with development of S60 until the first Symbian OS under the Symbian Foundation is released. They have to continue with the current S60 for their current and upcoming phones.

Symbian will be around for a long time... Nokia didn't buy Symbian to drop it. Nokia have to continue to make Symbian development easier, at the moment, its still a pig.

I've heard both positive and negative things about Symbian. Open Source gives it an advantage but it can also be crash prone. But I was just reading yesterday that Nokia was pushing another OS for certain phones as well while continuing with Symbian. It makes absolutely no sense. Symbian may be open but how will it last against Android? Open Source mobile developers are going more to Android. I wonder how long it Symbian is going to be around.

As it is there are six platforms. It is too many. With the ever emerging intergration of the phone, the desktop, the cloud, and the apps they use I wonder which platforms will be around in five years

 

[edesignuk]

<cuddles HTC Magic [Android] with it's background applications, ability to install apps not from Market without "hacking" device etc>

 

[svndmvn]

<cuddles HTC Magic [Android] with it's background applications, ability to install apps not from Market without "hacking" device etc>

not trying to get banned or anything , but I thought Android's background apps weren't really running, it was more like having them frozen, am I wrong? It would anyway be better than Apple's implementation until now, just trying to understand more.

 

[macnchiefs]

Thats what competition can do for you. It makes all products better in the long run. The pre isn't even out yet and they're paying attention.

 

[str1f3]

not trying to get banned or anything , but I thought Android's background apps weren't really running, it was more like having them frozen, am I wrong? It would anyway be better than Apple's implementation until now, just trying to understand more.

Theoretically, background apps are not supposed to really use the CPU and only a little memory but it all depends on the kind of app you're running. Something like a task management app or calendar would not use the CPU and little memory but something like Pandora and Twitter/IM client would.

It seems that the G1 does have some power management issues with background apps. Apparently background apps were draining battery life enough for reviewers and customers alike. Some have theorized that some of the background apps were continuously running and didn't quit. It will probably be fixed to some extent with their cupcake update but it is hard to put a exact problem to it because of the variables involved.

The main problem with current iPhone's , it seems, Apple only gave enough RAM for their own background processes and nothing else. While jailbreaking and running backgrounder can be useful, it's not a pleasant experience.

 

[svndmvn]

useful post

thanks, a friend who has a Magic told me they weren't really running, haven't read anything official though.

 

[marksman]

If they also open the dock connector up to new accessories then someone could make a case that uses an app that runs in the background. When that app sense that the iphone is in free fall using the accelerometer it could deploy an airbag out of the case. Of course it would be a small airbag so it would fit in the case with out it being too bulky.

No more broken screens. And it would also float so if dropped in water it wouldn't get wet.

You sir are a million dollar idea genius.

 

[marksman]

I think you are on to something here- the internet music has the issue of always running the radio, but, I feel like apple could easily have a central schedule of alerts that any app could use. One process could manage iphone alarms, calendar alarms, Things alarms or any process that wanted to use it, rather than have these things bounce back and forth between push servers.

Also, from what I was reading elsewhere, this would solve a problem with push notifications. As I understand it, if your a small developer that wants to write an app that can alert people, you would have to set up servers to alert apple's push notifications which in turn alert the users. However, that server stuff is tough to pull off as a small start up. It seems that their could easily be one alert schedule process for all things that are determined ahead of time.

A server that would handle push notifications for a relatively large user base would not very expensive at all. It may take some work if you don't have any sysadmin experience, but you can get managed servers that limit the amount of work you have to do running them and can focus on your push applications.

I suspect Apple already considered essentially an internal push configuration in the phone and found that an untenable solution, most likely because each app would use up too many resources just trying to manage / create their alerts. For an app to push internally, it would have to be running whatever part of the code is needed to trigger that push signal. This could be substantial in some cases. With the external push notification, the notification can be as complex and sophisticated as anyone can make it and it will still only make a small minimal impact on the phone.

I think allowing one background app combined with external push notification would be a pretty good way to manage all sides and problems facing them with this issue.

 

[adbe]

True. It is highly possible for the end-users to pay a monthly subscription to the developer instead of directly to Apple. No wonder Apple is taking Background apps support away from us. If Apple does introduce Background Apps support, it is like poking a hole in the $$$ filled pocket, isn't it? LOL.

Despite Apple's love of margins, I doubt this. I think in this case Apple will see this as a loss leader. For them the cost of providing a push gateway fits into the same business logic as used for most of the iTunes store. Free apps cost Apple money. They have to test them, and handle the server bandwidth for them, and they see no direct ROI for that. By most reports, Apple aren't exactly cleaning up on pay applications, music, or films either. All of this stuff exists to achieve one goal: ensure that Apple has the content necessary to sell hardware. Most people aren't going to subscribe to MobileMe, and that greatly reduces the surface area for PNS. I think Apple know that push needs to be a success if they want to head off the increasing number of competing systems, each with its own app store, that do, or will multitask. I think they'll eat the cost.

That said, as pointed out earlier, even a free PNS service is not exactly a low cost prospect for small developers.

 

[adbe]

A server that would handle push notifications for a relatively large user base would not very expensive at all. It may take some work if you don't have any sysadmin experience, but you can get managed servers that limit the amount of work you have to do running them and can focus on your push applications..

I think that depends on where you are standing when you evaluate that cost.

For AOL, or ESPN, that cost would clearly be minimal.

For a small, specialist app company, that cost may be no more than the initial cost of putting together a Cocoa development group with a few Macs, and as such, easily justifiable.

For a bedroom coder with a smart idea, it may well be an utterly unacceptable risk.

For a free application writer, it's just a non-starter.

 

[imcquill]

Aren't these the kinds a situations Apple re-engineered and unified all the unix timing system for?
Launchd when it appeared on OS X not only cut boot times but was billed as a way for a program to register with a central controller for time or event based triggering of shell scripts, one place to handle all events.

Launchd must be there as part of the iPhoneOS, but I can understand if they want to careful about allowing access to it. You don't want it getting clogged.

Yes, that is it. I think apps could use a limited subset of what launchd could do. It would definitely come in handy for some apps. You're right that you wouldn't want it to get cluttered. Apple would have to control that.

For location based triggers leaving the GPS running might be a killer. Maybe they need some sort of reverse lookup system. That would tell the phone which cell tower or wifi hotspot to expect near the requested location.

Yes, running the GPS would be a killer, but the phone may be (not sure) already keeping track of your rough location with cell triangulation. I don't think background GPS is an option, but some worse form of location based background tracking may be possible.

 

[BongoBanger]

I respectfully disagree. The Symbian and WM platforms were essentially developed for 5 year old hardware. It wasn't even until the iPhone came out that everybody started to talk about specs for phones. The chips that will start to come out later this year from the likes of ARM and Nvidia are really the first results of the iPhone influence. Essentially since the iPhone introduction at Macworld, Apple has had to live off the same chip for the past three years with only deifference being processor speed.

Not sure I agree here. S60 has moved through a number of iterations the current one being S60v3 FP2 and S60v5 (there's no S60v4 as 4 is considered an unlucky number in some of Nokia's key Asian markets). I also remember people talking about the N95's specs when it came out - it was branded as a multimedia computer in Europe - although I appreciate Nokia don't really have a presence in the US so it's probably different there.

I can't speak for Symbian from experience but I can with WM. While it may have multi-tasking, the OS at it's core is extremely buggy creating constant issues of stability. This is not even counting poorly written 3rd party apps (some malicious) and skinning the interface. It's the reason why Microsoft has taken forever to re-write the entire OS for WM7.

I sort of agree here. Although WinMo was OK to use (I had a Samsung Omnia) I'm just more comfortable with Nokia's UI. I also find S60 to be very stable, perhaps more so than WinMo and a good deal more user friendly.

I've heard both positive and negative things about Symbian. Open Source gives it an advantage but it can also be crash prone. But I was just reading yesterday that Nokia was pushing another OS for certain phones as well while continuing with Symbian. It makes absolutely no sense. Symbian may be open but how will it last against Android?

I think a more pertinent question is "will Android survive against Symbian?". Certainly sales of the G1 in Europe were very poor and with Symbian's move to open source I'm not sure there's a great deal of desire for Android at the moment outside of the US.

Open Source mobile developers are going more to Android. I wonder how long it Symbian is going to be around.

That's kind of an illusion - open source developers are developing for Android because there are far fewer apps for it than Symbian which has thousands of mature and stable apps for it. It's the same reason that the iPhone mushroomed - not so much developers leaving platforms as the emergence of a totally new platform with the revenue possibilities that meant.

 

[t0mat0]

Yes, that is it. I think apps could use a limited subset of what launchd could do. It would definitely come in handy for some apps. You're right that you wouldn't want it to get cluttered. Apple would have to control that.


Yes, running the GPS would be a killer, but the phone may be (not sure) already keeping track of your rough location with cell triangulation. I don't think background GPS is an option, but some worse form of location based background tracking may be possible.

Would be pretty cool if background GPS was an option. Lets hope they upgrade from the Hammerhead II - one of the biggest power draws in the current iPhone 3G.

 

[Slayter]

I would like to see in, let's say OS 4.0 beside the PUSH- already properly running(no big delays and so on), also background for let's say 2 third party apps. (radio and something, or something plus something).
Thats enough for vast majority.

IM's - done by PUSH
Mail - already running in the background and also PUSH
iPOD- runnig in background
Safari- runnig in background

Or better solution would be, IMO - let keep runing services for thirdparty apps.
Only the neccessary one's.
But don't cripple the dock, or the UI won't be so cool ande easy-to-use as it was intended.

 

[str1f3]

a rebuttal...

Not sure I agree here. S60 has moved through a number of iterations the current one being S60v3 FP2 and S60v5 (there's no S60v4 as 4 is considered an unlucky number in some of Nokia's key Asian markets). I also remember people talking about the N95's specs when it came out - it was branded as a multimedia computer in Europe - although I appreciate Nokia don't really have a presence in the US so it's probably different there.

I've never really specs before the iPhone. Yes, they would talk about camera lens, MP and what it can do but never about processors and RAM.

I think a more pertinent question is "will Android survive against Symbian?". Certainly sales of the G1 in Europe were very poor and with Symbian's move to open source I'm not sure there's a great deal of desire for Android at the moment outside of the US.

That's kind of an illusion - open source developers are developing for Android because there are far fewer apps for it than Symbian which has thousands of mature and stable apps for it. It's the same reason that the iPhone mushroomed - not so much developers leaving platforms as the emergence of a totally new platform with the revenue possibilities that meant.

While Android does have it's work cut out for it, Google has the money to stay around in the long run. Nokia has the advantage in selling phones outside the U.S. with a extremely large user base, it just posted a really bad quarter and a lot of the phones they sell are "throwaway" phones and not smartphones. Nokia is primarily a hardware manufacturer and it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility of running Android in 5-10 yrs. Remember, Android has only been out for a little more than half a year.
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I posted three articles which are good reads:

Om Malik:For Some App Developers Palm & Nokia Are No-Gos
http://gigaom.com/2009/04/08/for-some-app-developers-palm-nokia-are-no-gos/

"When asked if they would re-write their applications for a platform other than the one they currently support, nearly 56 percent said yes. Google’s Android ranks highest in terms of interest — a whopping 58 percent of non-Android developers plan to port to that platform, while 40 percent of non-iPhone developers plan to port an app to the iPhone platform. In comparison, 26 percent will port to RIM and 20 percent to Windows Mobile. When it comes to the platforms of Palm and Nokia’s Symbian, however, those numbers drop to just 8 percent and 9 percent, respectively"
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VentureBeat:iPhone devotion blinds Silicon Valley app developers
http://venturebeat.com/2009/04/11/iphone-devotion-blinds-silicon-valley-app-developers/

"MacLeod asked a panel of developers if they’re focused on the Ovi Store, which is projected to reach 400 million supported handsets by the end of 2010. (By comparison, Apple has sold 30 million combined iPhones and iPod Touches and is estimated to have a base of 15 million mobile users based in the U.S.). The response? Crickets chirping in the night. Of four iPhone developer “rock stars,” as MacLeod described them, only Alan Wells of Zynga said his company was “thinking about” creating products for the Ovi Store. The other panelists — Ben Lewis, founder of TapJoy; Jonathan Zweig, CEO of Jirbo; and Mike Kerns, CEO of Citizen Sports — expressed no interest."
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VentureBeat:Mobile app developers fire back: Nokia sucks!
http://venturebeat.com/2009/04/12/mobile-app-developers-fire-back-nokia-sucks/

These are some developers:
"Is the Nokia store supposed to challenge Apple? Or Microsoft supposed to? Or RIM? You know what folks, you had your chances. If you want to impress me, if you want me to start developing for your platforms again, get your houses in order. Once things change, once you get your stores developed, released, and proven as a good commercial channels to end users — then we can talk again. Until then we’re all just going to keep laughing at you and developing for iPhone.”
– Mike Rowehl on his blog This Is Mobility.

"Nokia and Blackberry’s hardware and carrier focus has thus far led to lack of investment/interest/capability in software SDK design & developer support.”
– “Diesel McFadden” in response to my story.

It’s time to foster your own counter-cult or get out of the way.”
–“Jon Bell” in response to Rowehl’s post

“As of now, Ovi is not a very developer-friendly place. Developers should get the VERY expensive ‘Java certified’ status for each app (a certificate that cost a decent list of devices could easily run up to $60k+). Nokia won’t do the app-verification process. Without doing anything to verify the app, Nokia takes a 30 percent cut on apps sold. Nokia is like the most tip-demanding waiter in a self service restaurant.”
– “Rapidmortal” in response to my story.

“. . . Developing for Symbian is extremely painful. The tool chain is cr*p on Windows platforms and even worse on Mac.”
–“Jim” in response to my story.
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It is impossible to say which platforms will be around in 10 years but right now there are way too many. As more customers devote time and money to a platform, they are more than likely hooked into it unless another OS has a major paradigm shift (possible with Palm and the Pre). A decent example would be Howard Stern. Palm gave him a early release of the Pre for him to review. He said he liked it but chose not to use it. Why? Because it didn't have Lotus Notes. He was so attached to the software, he refused to switch platforms. So he chose a Blackberry instead.

 

[FearNo1]

Of course this will happen. apple has to find some way to keep ppl re-buying the iphone every year...

 

[Manic Mouse]

Why not have a wider set of frameworks that apps can plug into? Like allow streaming apps to plug into the already running iPhone background app. Or allow to-do apps plug into the calendar notifications and post reminders to it? Along with Push for IM this would pretty much cover nearly all the backgrounding a user would need, without the high over-head of actually running background apps.

 

[str1f3]

Why not have a wider set of frameworks that apps can plug into? Like allow streaming apps to plug into the already running iPhone background app. Or allow to-do apps plug into the calendar notifications and post reminders to it? Along with Push for IM this would pretty much cover nearly all the backgrounding a user would need, without the high over-head of actually running background apps.

That takes time and probably will not happen until OS 4.0. Right now they have to get 3.0 stable and ready in time for late June.