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Sorry, I meant spatial audio in general. But the issue is still valid: Engineers monitor their mixes using the Dolby Atmos Renderer. Apple Music users hear the Atmos mixes rendered using Apple's own "spatial audio" renderer.



No, Logic Pro uses the official Dolby Renderer. Apple has not integrated spatial audio rendering in Logic. Yet. (As mentioned in the article.)

They don't need to. You can already mix in Logic using Dolby Atmos with any headphones. I'll explain...

Dolby Atmos uses psychoacoustic techniques to simulate with only two speakers (along a digital profile that explains a computer processor how big they are, how fast they accelerate and de-celarate, among other things) a multi-speaker setup (surround sound) within a perfect acoustic listening environment. That's why you need certified speakers for Atmos to work.

For Spatial Audio, think about it as an audio plugin like the ones that come with Logic Pro, that Apple has embedded in their newer Macs and earphones/headphones hardware and software, that allows them to simulate that those tiny speakers are certified Dolby Atmos speakers and environments according to the tiny physical speaker characteristics they use for each product.

That's why they go hand to hand. You cannot render Dolby Atmos sound in your Apple headphones or Mac speakers if they don't support the Spatial Audio plugin that allows them to become a certified Atmos setup.

So, Logic doesn't need Spatial Audio support, because it depends on you. If you are mixing Dolby Atmos, you have a physical certified monitoring setup (speakers and probably a DAC.) Or, Logic gives you the option to activate the binaural mode for each track you'll use and mix the final 3D sound file using any type of decent quality headphones.

Again, they are not different standards that Apple is supporting. Spatial Audio-type of audio plugins have been around for ages as additional support for monitoring mixes using headphones, among other applications. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple got some sort of license from Waves and their Nx tech for simulating speakers and studio environments for audio/music mixing.
 
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Because they don’t even know it’s on, it’s usless it ruins music and makes it sound like a demo track; lossless is the real quality, music is made for left and right stereo not virtual sound

Exactly this!

Most people are not into Apple products like we all are in this forum, so like @Kylo83 said, most people do not have a clue this is on.

:apple:
 
Spatial audio is a gimmick — and in Apple’s case — a way to gloss over their crappy stream rate and lack of high rez capability. Digital Audio Players (DAPs) are making a comeback. A player like Fiio, iBasso, Shanling, or Astell&Kern with a quality wired set of earbuds or headphones will really reset your opinion of what music should sound like. Even an LDAC-enabled set of Bluetooth earbuds will get you a good way there. Lossless by itself is meaningless. The sample rate needs to be high, along with codecs that can transmit the higher bit rate. Apple doesn’t do any of that.

It’s great that they’re rethinking this. It’s always interesting when Apple “invents” something that people have been using for years. As Bruce Willis once said:

ff57aaa61cf734d4473e74685b4a1afe.png
 
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A player like Fiio, iBasso, Shanling, or Astell&Kern with a quality wired set of earbuds or headphones will really reset your opinion of what music should sound like.
I would guess, then, that the vast majority of folks don’t want to reset their opinion of what music should sound like… just judging by the sales of wireless headphones. Especially, if it means purchasing a separate device that’s the same size as your phone.
 
I use the lightning to 3.5mm cable to connect my AirPods Max for lossless playback. The DAC in my iPhone 13 Pro Max could be better.
Lightning to 3.5mm won’t give you lossless. Fourth from the bottom of the page https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183

Also, I’m not sure if you can tell how good the DAC is in your 13 Pro Max is. Can you explain how you can tell? Bluetooth? Not a chance.
 
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Spatial audio is a gimmick — and in Apple’s case — a way to gloss over their crappy stream rate and lack of high rez capability. Digital Audio Players (DAPs) are making a comeback. A player like Fiio, iBasso, Shanling, or Astell&Kern with a quality wired set of earbuds or headphones will really reset your opinion of what music should sound like. Even an LDAC-enabled set of Bluetooth earbuds will get you a good way there. Lossless by itself is meaningless. The sample rate needs to be high, along with codecs that can transmit the higher bit rate. Apple doesn’t do any of that.

It’s great that they’re rethinking this. It’s always interesting when Apple “invents” something that people have been using for years. As Bruce Willis once said:

ff57aaa61cf734d4473e74685b4a1afe.png
You’re mis-informed my friend.

Apple Music is providing CD quality (16/44.1kHz Red Book) or better for EVERY track available on its service. Tidal is applying MQA to its tracks and please don’t get me started on that snake-oil.

Qobuz doesnt have the track numbers that Apple has and Spotify Hi-res has been teased for about six months and is looking like vapourware at the moment.

Spatial Audio IS a gimmick but the beauty of Apple Music is that sweet, sweet 16/44.1kHz ALAC.
 
Lightning to 3.5mm won’t give you lossless. Fourth from the bottom of the page https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183

Also, I’m not sure if you can tell how good the DAC is in your 13 Pro Max is. Can you explain how you can tell? Bluetooth? Not a chance.
It says "playback will not be completely lossless". This does not mean "won't give you lossless". It is better than BlueTooth.

From Apple website..."To listen to songs at sample rates higher than 48 kHz, you need an external digital-to-analog converter". Apple songs can be up to 192 kHz for sampling rates. This requires a better DAC. Also, it could be louder. Many songs max-out volume and still it could be louder.
 
Lightning to 3.5mm won’t give you lossless. Fourth from the bottom of the page https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183

Also, I’m not sure if you can tell how good the DAC is in your 13 Pro Max is. Can you explain how you can tell? Bluetooth? Not a chan
Is there some reason you can't just state what you want to prove instead of all these links?

These websites that say AirPods Max won't play "lossless" are talking about BlueTooth. AirPods Max can do both, right, BlueTooth and cord connection. I have AirPods Max. I use both connection types.
Nonsense.

The wired connection in AirPods Max is not the same as a regular wired headphone.

Both links I have posted indicate that you are suffering from confirmation bias.
 
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Apple's own headphones don't support lossless audio. None of them. That means even if you've spent £549 ($549, AU$899) on a pair of AirPods Max, you can't listen to Apple Music in the highest quality. Miffed? We don't blame you.

That's not the whole story, though: the AirPods Max aren't the only Apple device not able to take advantage of lossless audio, and – on the plus side – Spatial Audio support is much wider. Let's take a look at which devices can benefit from hi-res audio, which don't, and why...
 
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I'm an audiophile so I believe in manipulating the sound as little as possible; I don't even like tone controls.

The fact is, adding lossless was to compete with other streaming services that have been touting it as better quality (which it is, technically, but a lot of gear won't be able to pick up the difference). Spatial audio is something whose effects are more noticeable and has more appeal to the masses.
 
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I'm an audiophile so I believe in manipulating the sound as little as possible; I don't even like tone controls.

The fact is, adding lossless was to compete with other streaming services that have been touting it as better quality (which it is, technically, but a lot of gear won't be able to pick up the difference). Spatial audio is something that have more appeal to the masses.
I love my music and my listening set-up but I have a major dislike for the term ‘Audiophile’.

Red Book (16/44.1) quality is as good as having a copy of the CD in my hands. As for Spatial Audio, IMHO it’s a fad.
 
Apple's own headphones don't support lossless audio. None of them. That means even if you've spent £549 ($549, AU$899) on a pair of AirPods Max, you can't listen to Apple Music in the highest quality. Miffed? We don't blame you.

That's not the whole story, though: the AirPods Max aren't the only Apple device not able to take advantage of lossless audio, and – on the plus side – Spatial Audio support is much wider. Let's take a look at which devices can benefit from hi-res audio, which don't, and why...
But you are incorrect. I don't own the AirPods Max, so I've got nothing to defend. But I do use DAWs (especially Logic Pro.) They work like regular wired headphones according to Apple. Check their Logic Pro website and the Dolby Atmos mixing workflow in the manual. You can mix Dolby Atmos using binaural mode with wired AirPods Max or any pair of wired headphones. It means its a completely analogue signal path and doesn't need any sort of special speakers, as long as you activate binaural panning within Logic's track panner and Atmos plugin. You can't mix any sort of session in Logic using Bluetooth speakers (headphones or monitors) or Bluetooth signal paths due to its data streaming constraints. Audio dropouts wouldn't let you work at all. So no, AirPods Max don't "wire" and constrain audio signals to Bluetooth streams when using the headphone's line input. Which means that if you use them wired, you can get lossless support.

PS: And Spatial Audio is not a fad. It's a tool Apple uses to translate its speakers profiles so Dolby Atmos works. Marketing left people confused or misinformed regarding these techs.
 
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Lightning to 3.5mm won’t give you lossless. Fourth from the bottom of the page https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212183

Also, I’m not sure if you can tell how good the DAC is in your 13 Pro Max is. Can you explain how you can tell? Bluetooth? Not a chance.
I'm not sure where you got that the Lightning to 3.5mm adapter won't give you lossless from that support page. It clearly states wired connections (which the adapter is for,) and it has an integrated DAC that supports 24bit@48KHz sample rates. Lossless is at least 16bit@44KHz. So yes, using this adapter gives you lossless support.
 
I'm so glad I don't care about lossless anymore.

Once you get older, your hearing is deteriorating anyhow and worrying about lossless is just time wasted for the most part.

That said -- I do keep my curated iTunes library as lossless as possible, just so I have great source files to always work with, but I'd be lying if I said I can honestly hear the difference between the lossless files and 320 AAC versions of the same source.
 
The above is pointless.

Lossless in CD quality (Red Book, Google it) or better. AirPods, being wireless, are not capable of providing CD quality.
Red Book is a standard for burning data on CDs. CD quality is referred to when you use digital equipment to translate analog signals to sampling rates of at least 16bit@44KHz for recording and playback of sounds. Quality has more to do with the Nyquist-Shannon theorem than with the Red Book standard. :rolleyes:
 
I'm so glad I don't care about lossless anymore.

Once you get older, your hearing is deteriorating anyhow and worrying about lossless is just time wasted for the most part.

That said -- I do keep my curated iTunes library as lossless as possible, just so I have great source files to always work with, but I'd be lying if I said I can honestly hear the difference between the lossless files and 320 AAC versions of the same source.
You shouldn't care and you are correct regarding trying to differentiate between lossless and modern, high quality compression formats. Just enjoy the music. Even lossless recordings may sound far worse than compressed and modern material, because it depends on the recording methods and acoustic spaces used to capture the sounds.

Also, Atmos and Spatial Audio have nothing to do with lossless. What these technologies applied by Apple to its products are trying to achieve is to kinda-solve an inherent problem with regular headphones and small speakers: you can't get a complete and correct stereo perception of the soundstage with them due to the reduced actual space between the speakers and your ears, and their efficiency to move air. These issues lead to ear fatigue and hearing damage.
 
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Red Book is a standard for burning data on CDs. CD quality is referred to when you use digital equipment to translate analog signals to sampling rates of at least 16bit@44KHz for recording and playback of sounds. Quality has more to do with the Nyquist-Shannon theorem than with the Red Book standard. :rolleyes:
Nonce sense.

Red Book is a digital audio standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Books?wprov=sfti1
 
Nonce sense.

Red Book is a digital audio standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Books?wprov=sfti1
The article clearly states the Rainbow Books are a collection of formats for burning data to CDs. CD-DA or IEC 60908 is covered by the Red Book for burning music CDs. It's taken directly from your link. I'm gonna stop responding to your posts since you clearly are very confused, or you are trying to troll. Bye!
 
I would guess, then, that the vast majority of folks don’t want to reset their opinion of what music should sound like… just judging by the sales of wireless headphones. Especially, if it means purchasing a separate device that’s the same size as your phone.
You are right, but the point being made here is that Apple is missing the boat with hi-rez audio output. CD quality is NOT hi-rez, in spite of other's opinions. Many Android devices have the ability to go above and beyond CD quality streaming output. Apple does not. Their catalog might be great with availability, but if you can't hear their top audio quality, then the wireless headset codecs they use are the sticking point. LDAC gets closer, but still doesn't have the throughput for ultra hi-rez. Apple wont even do that.

DAPs are becoming popular again because of the gap in primarily Apple's offering. People want to hear hi-rez content the way it's meant to be heard. We've listened to CD quality for years and have been underwhelmed. And yes, you can hear and tell the difference.

I'm not crazy about carrying a separate device, but I do. I want to hear better quality music. I have the Fiio M11 Plus LTD paired with Meze Rai Penta wired, balanced IEMs, as well as a quality LDAC capable set of wireless earbuds from Sony. I would drop the Fiio in a minute if Apple seriously came out with a competitive device that delivered 24 bit/192 khz output -- wired or wireless. But they're not there yet.

The fact that Apple is seeing Android and DAP popularity as a threat to them that needs to be met is interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing where they go with this.
 
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