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compare apples to apples...

Dutch...again, nice attempt to justify theft.

If you, personally, want to share your music via napster, that is fine. You are completely free to give your music away for free to anyone who wants it. I encourage independent artists to do so. I think it is a primary tool for establishing a following. But, you are not in a contractual agreement with another business not to do so, so sharing your music doesn't violate any laws. That makes all of the difference...

Are you trying to argue that Napstering Major Label releases is not theft? I'd like to see your argument.
 
overpriced?

So, tFaz...if I think something is overpriced, you think I'm justified in just taking it? Is that your reasoning?

Hmmm...perhaps that new dual 1ghz machine is a bit steep, I might as well just liberate it from the shelf of my local computer store.

Is that really the stance you are asserting?
 
how is a contract based on # of albums not extortion?

The whole business is screwed up. This will phoenix it and the Artists will benifit in the end. Get over it, the djinn is out of the bottle.
 
Do you guys know the capabilities of morhpeus. Morpheus is not only for songs, there are a whole lot of Divx movies that you can download and music videos, not to mention programs, here comes mac warez... not to mention a **** load of music
 
The artist signs the contract...

Mischief...extortion of who? The artists, with stars in their eyes and a few bucks in their pockets willingly sign these deals. And, not all of them are terrible.

Again, what is it that you are arguing for? What is the "principle" at play here? That you are free to steal anything that you think is unfair? Its not like we are talking about basic necessities like food here, we are talking about entertainment. If you don't like the product, if you don't think an album is worth a whole $13.99, then don't buy it. But, don't try to pretend that taking it off of Napster is not stealing.

How about software? Should I take a program such as BBEdit off of Morpheus and not pay for it?
 
sputnix

Finally we get morpheus! I just hope it isn't a half-assed port.

By the way, for all you people wanting good music now, download sputnix from versiontracker.com. It really is a fantastic program, but all you can get is songs. It destroys Limewire in everyway possible.
 
Look at what's happening Tim... Because the "theft" that is taking place online is working to change things.

Already the recording industry is comming to grips with the fact that they just don't have THAT much money to keep sueing every little P2P that comes along. Napster is proving to them that the they can't stop file swapping - it simply has become a fact of net life (much like privacy and security are).

So what's happening?

Soon we'll see sites that offer Hollywood films for very little money. The content and quality is guaranteed, the experience is easy and painless, and the customer (as well as the business) get what he/she wants. It's plain to see that Hollywood is living in the real-world.

Who would want to be the recording industry right now? Not only did they miss out on making even MORE money with their product - they are SPENDING money on their mistakes.

Ouch... so instead of paying a small price for a guaranteed, high bit-rate download of the music I want, I'll "steal" it with far less quality and efficency. My experience isn't great... but it's the only thing that the recording industry has left me with.

Oh, but I grow tired...

At least when I want to see "The Royal Tenenbaums" from the comfort of my own G4, I won't have to fellate myself with the in's and out's this moral dilemma. By then I'll just sign on, pay the bill, and watch - knowing that the Wilson brothers will get their check from me.

But that's only my simple little dream... maybe you have another.
 
tFaz...

You seem to be mixing your arguments.

I gurantee you that the movie industry, in the near future, will not be releasing any feature-length movies via download without some method to secure that digital file. Sure, they will develop technology to allow what you are suggesting, but they will make you pay for the use of the movie. And, I'll even bet that the pricing structure will not be too disimilar to current VHS and DVD rental prices. The only difference will be system of delivery.

The music industry will adapt as well. However, they will never provide the music for free with no restrictions on its use. In this way, they will operate very much like the movie industry. I don't really see the difference between the two that you are attempting to define. Perhaps you can clarify?

Stealing is stealing in either scenario.
 
un-clench that sphincter for a minute

Nobody's saying this stuff sould be given away, we're just saying that the existing system is a Racket that benefits the Labels more than the consumer or Artist.

The technology for a paid download that DOESN'T expire is what the labels should use for their paid service and CDs should be selling for about 1/3 what they are now.

Just because the status Quo wraps itself in Copywrite law doesn't mean its the best solution. Do you think it's right to be encarcerated for a substance abuse problem or put in jail for Life just because you have (any) 3 felonies?

If I go to a concert, should I have to pay to remember the music?

What these companies are doing is far more outrageous than swapping a few files.
 
The entertainment industry is itself a double edged sword, the system that forces you to pay $20 for a DVD that costs $1 to manufacture allows the multi million dollar spectacles like Titanic to be made. It also forces anyone who can't sell 50million albums to languish in label slavery. There are alternatives and solutions will arise.
Right now, P2P, dubbing, bootlegging, even used CD stores, all take money away from the bigger artists and record labels and to a lesser extent the up and coming artist. It is no wonder that the record companies will do whatever they can to hold on to their system that keeps the money coming in. We can all see that it won't last the way it is now, and that some of the labels or artists will do what Marillion* did...use the net to organize their fan base to finance their own albums and tour.
*no I don't like the band, just their forward thinking approach to getting their music to their fans.

The P2P system is also taxing other intellectual property mediums as well. Movies (another f***ed system) are being ripped and distributed online next to software, books, and anything that can be converted to a digital format. Without a financial reward for publishing, how many people can continue to create? The system as it stands now is flawed, and P2P is making it worse for some who fight it, but if it is embraced can the artists thrive on it? Would a pay what you like honor system work? A tax for broadband customers that is distributed to the artists that are downloaded? A donation database that goes directly to the artists (or a charity if they choose) so people can pay something for what they download?

Sorry for the long rant, just some thoughts as I've seen some of my own work being swapped online.
 
on theft

In general, I agree with Tim... with some realisitc caveats...

first - no matter how you argue it, justify it, etc... it is stealing. Intellectual property that wasn't intended to be distrubuted freely. Especially with networks such as morpheus which also distribute applications (ie warez)...

however... these networks are a reality, and easy enough to get to... it is a personal line that you have to draw regarding use...

for good or bad -- in our society, copying music has never been considered taboo. Mix tapes (fair use) and copying songs for a friend have just been the norm... so moving this over to the online world hasn't taken much of a stretch for the general public... that's why Napster took off. I'm sure that if Napster distrubted "warez" instead of MP3's, that it wouldn't have been so openly popular... and would have gotten shut down much quicker.

Anyhow... I think the music industry is aware of this moral oversight regarding music... and they're going to have to deal with it... the details of which are being worked out now...

arn
 
Someone should steal ARn's "dessk" and throw it in the gutter....Now, that's entertainment!
 
-Arn, I don't disagree......but.....

The existing response is greedy and Draconian. Continuing to sell CD's at potentially HIGHER prices that most likely won't play on 1/2 my equipment? Screw that! These tactics were my stimulus to use the P2P systems and I'm sure I'm not alone. P2Ping Software (other than M$) and Movies is pretty low though. I buy CD's pretty exclusively used as regular prices are just STUPIDLY high for 1-3 decent songs per Album and knowing that the Artists don't neccesarily bennefit directly...........It just pisses me off. Music wise, everybody is getting screwed here. The Labels are choosing greed over common sense and consumers are responding by effectively boycotting them. That's all. I feel I should be free to boycott any product that sux.

Most of my use of P2P has been concert-unique bootlegs and remixes anyway. Does Jimi hendrix feel screwed because I have a BBC bootleg of him playing Cream songs? I think not. Does Cypress Hill or MTV feel screwed because I have a Remix of "Insane in the Membrane-Cornholio version".

Legality is not morallity and morallity is a subjective concept.
 
i was going to paraphase this and add a bit of my own opinion, but im really busy right now and gotta run so here you go:

Why Software Should Not Have Owners
by Richard Stallman

Digital information technology contributes to the world by making it easier to copy and modify information. Computers
promise to make this easier for all of us.

Not everyone wants it to be easier. The system of copyright gives software programs ``owners'', most of whom aim to
withhold software's potential benefit from the rest of the public. They would like to be the only ones who can copy and modify
the software that we use.

The copyright system grew up with printing---a technology for mass production copying. Copyright fit in well with this
technology because it restricted only the mass producers of copies. It did not take freedom away from readers of books. An
ordinary reader, who did not own a printing press, could copy books only with pen and ink, and few readers were sued for
that.

Digital technology is more flexible than the printing press: when information has digital form, you can easily copy it to share it
with others. This very flexibility makes a bad fit with a system like copyright. That's the reason for the increasingly nasty and
draconian measures now used to enforce software copyright. Consider these four practices of the Software Publishers
Association (SPA):
Massive propaganda saying it is wrong to disobey the owners to help your friend.
Solicitation for stool pigeons to inform on their coworkers and colleagues.

Raids (with police help) on offices and schools, in which people are told they must prove they are innocent of illegal copying.

Prosecution (by the US government, at the SPA's request) of people such as MIT's David LaMacchia, not for copying software
(he is not accused of copying any), but merely for leaving copying facilities unguarded and failing to censor their use.

All four practices resemble those used in the former Soviet Union, where every copying machine had a guard to prevent
forbidden copying, and where individuals had to copy information secretly and pass it from hand to hand as ``samizdat''. There
is of course a difference: the motive for information control in the Soviet Union was political; in the US the motive is profit.
But it is the actions that affect us, not the motive. Any attempt to block the sharing of information, no matter why, leads to the
same methods and the same harshness.

Owners make several kinds of arguments for giving them the power to control how we use information:

Name calling.
Owners use smear words such as ``piracy'' and ``theft'', as well as expert terminology such as ``intellectual property'' and
``damage'', to suggest a certain line of thinking to the public---a simplistic analogy between programs and physical objects.

Our ideas and intuitions about property for material objects are about whether it is right to take an object away from someone
else. They don't directly apply to making a copy of something. But the owners ask us to apply them anyway.

Exaggeration.
Owners say that they suffer ``harm'' or ``economic loss'' when users copy programs themselves. But the copying has no direct
effect on the owner, and it harms no one. The owner can lose only if the person who made the copy would otherwise have
paid for one from the owner.

A little thought shows that most such people would not have bought copies. Yet the owners compute their ``losses'' as if each
and every one would have bought a copy. That is exaggeration---to put it kindly.

The law.
Owners often describe the current state of the law, and the harsh penalties they can threaten us with. Implicit in this approach is
the suggestion that today's law reflects an unquestionable view of morality---yet at the same time, we are urged to regard these
penalties as facts of nature that can't be blamed on anyone.

This line of persuasion isn't designed to stand up to critical thinking; it's intended to reinforce a habitual mental pathway.

It's elementary that laws don't decide right and wrong. Every American should know that, forty years ago, it was against the
law in many states for a black person to sit in the front of a bus; but only racists would say sitting there was wrong.

Natural rights.
Authors often claim a special connection with programs they have written, and go on to assert that, as a result, their desires
and interests concerning the program simply outweigh those of anyone else---or even those of the whole rest of the world.
(Typically companies, not authors, hold the copyrights on software, but we are expected to ignore this discrepancy.)

To those who propose this as an ethical axiom---the author is more important than you---I can only say that I, a notable
software author myself, call it bunk.

But people in general are only likely to feel any sympathy with the natural rights claims for two reasons.

One reason is an overstretched analogy with material objects. When I cook spaghetti, I do object if someone else eats it,
because then I cannot eat it. His action hurts me exactly as much as it benefits him; only one of us can eat the spaghetti, so the
question is, which? The smallest distinction between us is enough to tip the ethical balance.

But whether you run or change a program I wrote affects you directly and me only indirectly. Whether you give a copy to
your friend affects you and your friend much more than it affects me. I shouldn't have the power to tell you not to do these
things. No one should.

The second reason is that people have been told that natural rights for authors is the accepted and unquestioned tradition of our
society.

As a matter of history, the opposite is true. The idea of natural rights of authors was proposed and decisively rejected when the
US Constitution was drawn up. That's why the Constitution only permits a system of copyright and does not require one; that's
why it says that copyright must be temporary. It also states that the purpose of copyright is to promote progress---not to
reward authors. Copyright does reward authors somewhat, and publishers more, but that is intended as a means of modifying
their behavior.

The real established tradition of our society is that copyright cuts into the natural rights of the public---and that this can only be
justified for the public's sake.

Economics.
The final argument made for having owners of software is that this leads to production of more software.

Unlike the others, this argument at least takes a legitimate approach to the subject. It is based on a valid goal---satisfying the
users of software. And it is empirically clear that people will produce more of something if they are well paid for doing so.

But the economic argument has a flaw: it is based on the assumption that the difference is only a matter of how much money
we have to pay. It assumes that ``production of software'' is what we want, whether the software has owners or not.

People readily accept this assumption because it accords with our experiences with material objects. Consider a sandwich, for
instance. You might well be able to get an equivalent sandwich either free or for a price. If so, the amount you pay is the only
difference. Whether or not you have to buy it, the sandwich has the same taste, the same nutritional value, and in either case
you can only eat it once. Whether you get the sandwich from an owner or not cannot directly affect anything but the amount
of money you have afterwards.

This is true for any kind of material object---whether or not it has an owner does not directly affect what it is, or what you can
do with it if you acquire it.

But if a program has an owner, this very much affects what it is, and what you can do with a copy if you buy one. The
difference is not just a matter of money. The system of owners of software encourages software owners to produce
something---but not what society really needs. And it causes intangible ethical pollution that affects us all.
What does society need? It needs information that is truly available to its citizens---for example, programs that people can read,
fix, adapt, and improve, not just operate. But what software owners typically deliver is a black box that we can't study or
change.

Society also needs freedom. When a program has an owner, the users lose freedom to control part of their own lives.

And above all society needs to encourage the spirit of voluntary cooperation in its citizens. When software owners tell us that
helping our neighbors in a natural way is ``piracy'', they pollute our society's civic spirit.

This is why we say that free software is a matter of freedom, not price.

The economic argument for owners is erroneous, but the economic issue is real. Some people write useful software for the
pleasure of writing it or for admiration and love; but if we want more software than those people write, we need to raise funds.

For ten years now, free software developers have tried various methods of finding funds, with some success. There's no need
to make anyone rich; the median US family income, around $35k, proves to be enough incentive for many jobs that are less
satisfying than programming.

For years, until a fellowship made it unnecessary, I made a living from custom enhancements of the free software I had written.
Each enhancement was added to the standard released version and thus eventually became available to the general public.
Clients paid me so that I would work on the enhancements they wanted, rather than on the features I would otherwise have
considered highest priority.
 
message too long!

heres the rest...

The Free Software Foundation (FSF), a tax-exempt charity for free software development, raises funds by selling GNU
CD-ROMs, T-shirts, manuals, and deluxe distributions, (all of which users are free to copy and change), as well as from
donations. It now has a staff of five programmers, plus three employees who handle mail orders.

Some free software developers make money by selling support services. Cygnus Support, with around 50 employees [when
this article was written], estimates that about 15 per cent of its staff activity is free software development---a respectable
percentage for a software company.

Companies including Intel, Motorola, Texas Instruments and Analog Devices have combined to fund the continued
development of the free GNU compiler for the language C. Meanwhile, the GNU compiler for the Ada language is being
funded by the US Air Force, which believes this is the most cost-effective way to get a high quality compiler. [Air Force
funding ended some time ago; the GNU Ada Compiler is now in service, and its maintenance is funded commercially.]

All these examples are small; the free software movement is still small, and still young. But the example of listener-supported
radio in this country [the US] shows it's possible to support a large activity without forcing each user to pay.

As a computer user today, you may find yourself using a proprietary (18k characters) program. If your friend asks to make a
copy, it would be wrong to refuse. Cooperation is more important than copyright. But underground, closet cooperation does
not make for a good society. A person should aspire to live an upright life openly with pride, and this means saying ``No'' to
proprietary software.

You deserve to be able to cooperate openly and freely with other people who use software. You deserve to be able to learn
how the software works, and to teach your students with it. You deserve to be able to hire your favorite programmer to fix it
when it breaks.

You deserve free software.
 
I think those RIAA executives should cut down on their crack and coke habits and maybe they wouldn't be so uptight about consumers exercising fair use. Those execs worried about losing their $2000-3000 weekly spending money for coke so they try to sue every p2p provider as they can.
 
BRAVO!!!!!(standing ovation)

Free The Data! Freedom of Information is noticeably absent from the US constitution. If you want that and you're American, move North 1 country and pay your $1000.00 entrance fee. Good talent is always appreciated in Canada.;)
 
Just to play Devil's Advocate here for a minute...

Listening to some of the big names in the recording industry recently, such as the Foo Fighters and Madonna (who incidentally has her own label), I was interested to hear their stance on Napster, and other P2P servers. Surprisingly, they actually were in AGREEMENT that it wasn't damaging their sales at all...

...and according to market research, record sales have remained steady - even throughout this minor recession.

As for the whole theft issue, I for one could not be bothered to download entire albums on my paultry 56k modem, which would probably take 2 weeks anyway. I would, however, rather go out and buy an album after hearing a track that I'd downloaded as a "taster" though, instead of being stuck with an album filled with bizarre songs that I'd hate. It just inspires me to listen to and purchase material from new or hard-to-find artists, which hardly get any airplay on crappy commercial radio stations, because they're not "mainstream" enough for the masses...

It also gives me a genuine and welcome alternative to listening to manufactured "Boy Bands".


Bring it on - I say.

Sorry Tim (Democracy says: "You lose")
 
gentlemen, start your flamethrowers...

The RIAA is coming! The RIAA is coming!

Here's a different slant on the whole stealing music issue:

It appears that most people would like to see the system of music distribution change / evolve / whatever into something both more user friendly and economically fair. Changing the system is probably not the motive behind most file-sharing, but the end result should be that the music industry will be forced to reevaluate its practices (and hopefully any change will be for the better rather than the worse).

The guys who dumped tea into Boston Harbor were also breaking the law, and [history of US Revolution snipped] were able to effect positive change [positive that is, unless you were a Native American but that is a whole 'nother thread].

Therefore, yes, it is stealing, but because it is from a corrupt system it is entirely likely that this "bad" behaviour will have a positive result.

The argument about megabands supporting the less successful bands is bs. Many more people would be buying those other bands music if they were not so expensive. I have no idea what the realistic economics of the situation are, but if I'm curious about Band X, I am far more likely to risk $8-$9 on it instead of $15.

I use p2p for music, and I know it's technically wrong. I spend a lot of money on cd's, about as much as I can afford to. If I nap some additional stuff no one is really losing out, as it does not represent a lost sale. In fact if I like what I've napped enough I often buy more stuff from same band.

Bring on the revolution!
 
what about making a tape for a friend?
or for yourself? or making a CD for your car and using the original at home? or making MP3's for your MP3 player?
technichaly all of those are illegal.
so, i don't think these post are really worth it anymore..the fact is it happens and will always happen. bootleging is something that has always, and will always happen. and it's up to the person whether or not it's moraly right.
 
I'm the last person you'd hear advocating stealing things you don't want to buy. I'm a big pro-capitalism guy myself. But to play devil's advocate, here's an argument by analogy you might find somewhat persuasive:

It is always illegal to revolt against your government. If you want to live in a country, you have a legal obligation to abide by the laws set up by the government of that country. If your government is unjust, your hypothetical legal option would be to leave the country. But this option may not be possible. And an unjust government, knowing it is unjust, will further tighten restrictions on the people, in the misguided belief that they can stifle any dissent.

When people look at the Napster incident a hundred years from now, they'll note how the music industry became a lumbering, oppressive behemoth, charged customers prices two orders of magnitude higher than the cost of production, and tried to manipulate an untenable combination of law and technology to maintain an empire rendered largely obsolete by the advent of global digital networking. Under these circumstances, a Napster-like scenario was inevitable. Eliminating the industry and their price-gouging from the music-acquisition process became obscenely easy. The music industry took a number of steps to compensate for this phenomenon, all of them self-destructive. Notably, they tried to invent even more restrictive technology with the insanely uninformed goal of making it impossible for users to duplicate a stream of bits, lobbied for new laws which caused more problems than they solved, raised prices further to cover their expenses in implementing these new strategies, and stepped up their policy of trying to engineer talent rather than go looking for it, in the hopes of cutting losses from non-hits. The result was an industry which charged more and more money for blander and blander music, distributed in ways that made it harder and harder for legitimate consumers to enjoy it, thus exacerbating all the conditions which led to the Napster situation to begin with.

The history lesson will continue in one of two ways: Either you will read about how it just wasn't possible for the music industry to hold back the tide with a sword, so to speak, and how the digital music phenomenon led to a more streamlined (but still profitable) music industry wherein labels are clients of artists and not vice-versa. Or you'll authorize the publisher of your history text to deduct ten dollars from your bank account so that you will be permitted to read the next section, telling you how a combination of innovative technology and vigorous prosecution of their customers allowed the music industry to triumph over the vicious thieves and protect their intellectual property rights forever and ever.
 
Don't flatter yourselves... :D

Trying to compare stealing music and software to a revolution akin to the Boston Tea Party or Robin Hood is ridiculous.

Again, I also support a change in the model of label/artist. I make a living doing so. But, don't kid yourself that you are pursuing some noble cause by stealing music and software. There are legit and noble ways to support independent art, and theft is not one of them.

With regards to the Free Software article...kumbaya. His arguments were almost laughable, except that many of you seem to take him seriously. Here you all are, wetting your pants to get Photoshop for X as soon as you can, and then you are going to try to convince me that you'd wait for some guy to write it for you for free? Ain't gonna happen. There are freeware and shareware programs on the market; feel free to rely on those.

You guys are in denial. Theft is theft, no matter how pretty you try to paint it.
 
Originally posted by PyroTurtle
what about making a tape for a friend?
or for yourself? or making a CD for your car and using the original at home? or making MP3's for your MP3 player?
technichaly all of those are illegal.

Actually, with the exception of making a tape for a friend, the rest is legal.

arn
 
Timothy i hardly ever resort to name calling but im sorry your statements are so screwed up. you are clearly some right wing facist moron or one of the masses you has blindly accepted what the right wing facists morons want you to believe. i like how all your arguments come down to "its stealing" its fun to just label something witha bad word and say the thing you labeled is therefore bad but frankly these sort of tactics only fool the most weak minded of society (which unfortunately is the majority of the public).

your statements about free software are so out of touch with reality i want to just shake you. there have been so many studies performed on free and open software development, that it is as ridiculous to claim that the sun revolves around the earth as it is to claim that private software development is better.

do you even know who wrote that article? try educating yourself before you start attacking other people's morals. quick to point fingers and make acusations but slow to learn. maybe i just feel this way because im a scientist, but im sorry your acusations try reak of a witch hunt.

for those of you who have been agreeing with tim. im not attacking you. you have all been making good points and educated statements, but this timothy guy is really bothering me (ok so it might have something to do with 42 hours without sleep but it doesnt make him any less ignorant and wrong)

i dont even want to argue the facts with someone like you. i might as well argue evolution to a creationist. some people are just too brainwashed or have too many alterior motives to be reached by even the most overwhelming evidence. i might as well try to convince a jury full of idiots that oj simpson is guilty. too many people with too much money and too silver lips trying to prevent me from showing these people just how guilty he is, and no amount of evidence will change that.
 
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