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Not a bad deal

Apple's pro creative products have gotten great reviews all along. But look how much you now get bundled, vs. what things used to (or still do) cost alone! Here's what things have cost in the past:

* Final Cut Pro $999
* Cinema Tools $999
* QuickTime Pro $29.99
* QuickTime MPEG-2 Playback $19.99
* Soundtrack with thousands of loops $199
* BIAS Peak Express $199
* Compressor (not available alone)
* LiveType with LiveFonts collection (not available alone)
* Boris Calligraphy (not available alone but still qualifies for Boris upgrades)
* DVD Studio Pro $499
* Motion $299

That comes to $3243--and the non-priced items add a LOT of additional value.

Now with Production Suite you get the latest version of ALL of the above for $499 (education), or $699-$1299 (everyone else).
 
GrannySmith_G5 said:
Damn me and my archaic year old laptop. I do a lot more then browse the web and look at pictures on my low end, year old ibook. I suspect a lot of other people do as well. You are right though. I'll be stopping by my local apple store after I leave the water bar tonight to pick up a g5 powermac so I can run this "cutting edge professional" $300 application. After all, clearly only a POWER user would ever use motion. Now that I know that I've been misusing my ibook, I can delete all the programs I have except for safari and preview and free up a buttload of disc space to store awesome pictures I download off of geocities and tripod sites! Sweet.

My 17inch imac won't run it either. I've got to stop buying these expensive web browsers and get a real man's computer.

You're taking what I said too literally. Although you can use all sorts of high end apps on a low end machine it's not meant to be used by it. The iBook is geared towards students and people who don't need power. You clearly do.

I myself find my 1ghz PowerBook to be a little slow for stuff like Photoshop.
 
Hi all,

Very interested as a student about the education Production Suite -- as I'm sure many are.

Has anyone found info on the site about upgrade pricing from this to the commercial version of Production Suite if this is the way to do it?

Any link to terms and conditions of the education 'version'?
 
It's been said before, but I'll say it again. MAN, that is one HOT deal on that package. It's like buying Final Cut Pro HD and getting Motion and DVD Studio Pro for FREE! :D
 
Hoef said:
Anyone got an idea whether Motion will be the AE killer?

I bet it will. I tried to us After Effects. That's really not a great interface or way of doing things. Motion has realtime previews and a genuine Apple interface. It'll kick AE's buns.
 
Darn, now I have to get rit of DVD Studio Pro and buy the bundle .... Makes more sense for me. Anyone interested in DVD SP3 Academic? .... Opened the box, but never installed or registered (still waiting for the G5 ... whereas software came in faster than speed of light).
 
Not to bash on software, but Logic Pro? Grr....

Seriously, are you already familiar with using Logic software, or do you just want it to have Apple's MIDI/music package to go with everything else?

I used a lot of different MIDI sequencers and HD recording software on the PC before moving mostly to the Mac a couple years ago. I don't find that many people who ever really liked Logic Audio on the PC, and it looks about the same on the Mac....

It's not that its feature set is lacking or anything. It just seems very non-intuitive and overly difficult to get around in it! This is something I've found even harder to believe is accepted on the Mac platform, than over in a Windows environment!

It's a little frustrating to me that for years, the Mac was considered the way to go for computerized music production work, but someplace along the line, they let that slip. The PC got software like "ACID Pro" before the Mac had anything even remotely equivalent, and it still has pretty user-friendly sequencers like Cakewalk Pro Audio/Sonar and high-end HD recording packages like "SAW Pro" that don't exist for Mac at all.

When Apple bought out Logic and canned the PC version, I understood their desire to sort of "buy their way back into the pro audio market", but it seemed like the worst possible choice to align themselves with. Steinberg would have been a much more powerful business to own/control, for example.


ifjake said:
maybe in the future. depends on whether i go for the masters in media in a couple of years. if the bundle had Logic Pro, i'd probably just get it now.
 
Rocketfella said:
Any link to terms and conditions of the education 'version'?

It's worth being sure before you buy... but Apple's deals for education are most often nothing but a lower price! If so, then you get the SAME version everyone else pays more for!

I'm pretty sure that's the case here, since there is only ONE version of Production Suite at the Apple Store.

Enjoy your free lunch :)
 
njmac said:
It's not actually an educational version, it's educational pricing.It's exactly the same. Use it for anything including commercial work

are you sure? have you compared the license papers included in two differently priced boxes? are they exactly the same? it is the license what you are paying for, the media is cheap.
 
good deal, but don't go crazy...

the PS is a great deal but let's cover a few things:

- unless they changed it with this release, the edu version of FCP is NOT upgradeable to the full commercial version.

- Motion is NOT an AE killer. AE is on version 6.5, and has been rock solid for years. It has an amazing color corrector, 3D camera import, 3D layers, professional keyer, etc. etc. It's also THE standard for desktop compositing/motion graphics. (although i'll probably pick up motion... but not before I get particular). No one who uses AE full time (like myself) is even considering dropping AE yet. (In fact, when motion was released, a lot of the AE people were scared Adobe was going to drop Mac, in which case, we'd go buy PCs. AE is THAT good.)

Motion looks promising, but it's a 1.0. FCP and DVDSP weren't USABLE until 3.0.
 
AE is going to die.

Ok, So AE is on 6.5, and Motion is 1.0

But look at it this way all you ever had was AE for YEEEEEARS on broadcast and the like. Not that you use AE for much else professionally. And in only a few years FCP has gone to 4.5 (cmon HD is 4.5) and is a new standard in DV and obviously soon to be HD (if the standard ever comes, you all know that DVDs arent HDTV right?). I argue FCP is not broadcast standard yet but is fastly becoming a niche market for itself in being cheap (cost wise only)

Now Adobe already dropped premiere cuz it sucked anyway and FCP just made them stop supporting it. So tell me AE isnt in trouble to some extent. AE requires ALOT OF SKILL to use effectively in a professional environment and thusly you need someone who costs alot of $. Now with motion you can have entry level people be just as effective as the AE gurus for a lower cost. And the real kicker to me is that, look at livetype and then look to motion. How long does it take to make something cool looking? 30min at the most if you know what you want and what you are doing. Now in broadcast (the biggest market and really the only one, without getting into film and the 24p people) you need stuff NOW and FAST for the nightly news. So you say JOHNSON MAKE ME A MOTION GRAPHIC. The AE guy would take all day to keyframe and tweak, render etc. And it would look good. BUt the motion guy would crank it out in 1/20th the time and would probably look better because tweaking isnt really as difficult as it is in AE.

THE ONE THING AE ALWAYS HAS GOING FOR IT, is layers. FCP sucks at layers, AE rocks layers in RT and everything you would ever want. BUT like I say what does LiveType and Motion NOT have that AE does? I can tell you the one thing Motion will take eons to get: VECTOR PAINT. Vector paint is the professional bundle of AE6 and it kicks ass with what you can do. And motion is missing it, so no real time hand drawn effects, stylus created moving masks etc etc. So AE has a legup in a few categories but what remains in the professional MONEY MAKING world is cost and time. Apples suite cuts time and cost into a fraction businesses (and competitors im sure) pee their pants at.

And another thing LIVETYPE is ALWAYS gonna BE THE TEXT motion program. If you play with Motion and its text stuff, its not treated the way LiveType treats it. You have to use both together to make motion graphics with good animated text. Plain 3D text, fine Motion is good for you. But for those of us who have used LiveType to make presentations and DVDs and the like, know it has alot of stuff it can do (and ALOT MISSING TOO) that motion doesnt do. Motion is for graphics and single entities, LiveType is for text, cuz LiveType can let you edit, manipulate in EVYERWHICHWAY each individual letter, motion treats the text as ONE object. GET THE POINT!?

I hope so. Rock on.
 
Hoef said:
Anyone got an idea whether Motion will be the AE killer?

Certainly not yet... and has been pointed out, unlikely to until atleast the 2nd release or maybe even the 3rd. The lack of 3D support alone is a MAJOR issue. I've also heard rumours that it lacks Vector import support, I can't imagine that such a basic requirement would be left out though.

The one thing I am expecting as a result of this app is a whole host of poor quality, ubiquitous motion graphics due to the fact that it's 'Behaviour' based, alittle like how the web was influxed with poor quality, unimaginative Flash sites immediately after it's launch. Something that has taken 5 years to drop and erase from the minds and desires of clients. :eek: :rolleyes: :)

I'll add Motion to my current motion workflow which currently includes After Effects 6, Combustion 3 and Shake 3.5, but I'm expecting it to be only in supplement to those apps, not a viable replacement, even for After Effects.
 
mr_austin said:
Motion looks promising, but it's a 1.0. FCP and DVDSP weren't USABLE until 3.0.

i agree that motion won't kill ae right away, if ever... but i think fcp was certainly pretty good by version 2. even though by version 1 it had gotten most to drop premiere (though it didn't compete so much with avid yet...)

same goes for dvdsp i'd say

as for srdashiki's post... it's definitely not as simple as "an awesome ae guy could do it well, but an entry level motion guy could do it well in 1/20th the time"... there's more to motion graphics than just tossing together presets, believe it or not

i agree that motion will probably reduce cost, but i don't think that it will reduce the need for talented artists, right igav? ;)
 
Motion: AE Friend not Foe

Hoef said:
Anyone got an idea whether Motion will be the AE killer?

When working on any project the more creative tools you have the better. AE did not go away when Discreet released combustion ( 3.0 rocks! ) and AE will not go away now that Motion is here. Sure Premier went bye bye, but how many editing programs do you need for editing a project? One. But when working with motion graphics and compositing the more tools and tricks up your sleeve the better. For example, LiveType for text, FCPHD for editing, Combustion 3 for amazing particle effects and 3D tools, AE for vector paint and 3D tools, and Motion for RT effects and more cool particle effects ( not to mention the amazing MSRP of 299! ). All these programs can work together to give you a product that will sell.

System Requirements, another reason AE is not dead. You can run AE on some really barebones systems ( compaired to the Motion Sys Reqs ). By the time you upgrade your system as reccommended by Apple you could have bought a hell of a lot of other software tools.
 
JFreak said:
are you sure? have you compared the license papers included in two differently priced boxes? are they exactly the same? it is the license what you are paying for, the media is cheap.
No, I was given bad information, and I'm sorry that I passed that on. It seems you have to get an additional license to use the ap for pro work.
 
Vegas

Have any of you ever tried Vegas? Real time, real easy...

And I agree... Motion will complement and be a tool for quick, nice things... but still AE is the 'more complex thing' solution.
 
Apple of my eye said:
But when working with motion graphics and compositing the more tools and tricks up your sleeve the better. For example, LiveType for text, FCPHD for editing, Combustion 3 for amazing particle effects and 3D tools, AE for vector paint and 3D tools, and Motion for RT effects and more cool particle effects ( not to mention the amazing MSRP of 299! ). All these programs can work together to give you a product that will sell.

This is true, but switching between programs can be a pain as well, especially when time is a factor (when is it not?). I used to do particles in C*, and integrate with C4D stuff in AE, but it ended up being slower and more difficult to tweak, so I just do particles in C4D, or a plugin. If I have the choice between motion, C*, and AE (plugin) for particles, AE is going to win just to keep things simple.

One thing that Motion has going for it is DVD menu creation (i see it as a HUGE complement to DVDSP) with back-and-forth editing similar to FCP/LiveType or PSD/AE.

I use C4D with AE often, but often I'll use invigorator, or render still frame as a quick fix just to speed up he process.

Also, I think people are just set in their ways. For example, I never use livetype. AI/C4D/AE can do just about anything I want to do with text. Motion will be great for early adopters and 'Johnson, get me a graphic'/Digital Juice types, but AE is not in trouble... (yet)
 
brykken said:
Quick Story -

I am a student and last Thursday I went to the EDU store and purchased Final Cut Pro along with DVD Studio Pro for a total of $748. My FCP shipment was delayed and this morning Apple email me to tell me that they upgraded my $499 order for FCP was upgraded to the Production Suite for the same price! That means I will get 3 programs that I was willing to pay over $1000 for, for only $499.

The only problem was that I had already been shipped DVD Studio Pro and it had been opened. I gave apple a ring and they quickly agreed to pay to return it for the FULL amount! I have been slightly jaded with the push back of my Dual 2.5, so this has renewed my confidence in Apple. Way to go Apple!
:D

Dude, That's a beautiful story. Brought a tear to my eye. Seriously though, that's f**king ace customer support
 
Great Peter Wiggins Motion review

Lest anyone think Motion doesn't have some nice features check out the above review. This app is very nice for a version 1 give it 2 more major updates and the lines between AE and Motion will begin to blur.

I agree with the poster above DVD Studio Pro and Motion go together hand in hand. In fact, there are new videos on Apple's Motion page showing the included templates. Many templates would make a DVD project look professional from the start. Check the water effects...very nice.

Apple truly is going to have one hell of a workflow. In 5 years I'm betting they have over a million FCP workflow setups and the Production Suite will consist of at least 2 new apps.

We also know that Quicktime 6.6 is going to have some nice features that greatly impact what the future Apple Pro products can do. This is only the beginning. I don't see AE being the stalwart that it is in 4 -5 years. Motion is just built better from the core. Adobe will have to totally re-architect AE to compete.
 
time will tell

nuckinfutz said:
I don't see AE being the stalwart that it is in 4 -5 years. Motion is just built better from the core. Adobe will have to totally re-architect AE to compete.

You're right about Motion being built better from the core, but 4-5 years is a long time. (I think we paid 25K for a media 100 in 99 or so...)

As for re-architecting to compete:

"The render for the 8 second clip took 44 minutes using the Apple 10bit uncompressed codec." I don't see that as blowing AE out of the water... even with 256 layers. the AE team is not a bunch of stiffs. Every update has been better than the last. This isn't a Premiere/FCP case where apple's product is clearly superior (although it does look nice for a 1.0)

And the better products don't always win in the market (windows, quark).

That said, at 299, go buy it anyway :)
 
"The render for the 8 second clip took 44 minutes using the Apple 10bit uncompressed codec." I don't see that as blowing AE out of the water... even with 256 layers. the AE team is not a bunch of stiffs. Every update has been better than the last. This isn't a Premiere/FCP case where apple's product is clearly superior (although it does look nice for a 1.0)

The only problem is rendering in Motion isn't any faster than AE or any other product but where Motion is going to demolish AE is in all the work preceding the render. No need for RAM previews and test renders. In Motion I just loop the video and keep tweaking until things look the way I want then and only then do I need to render.

For those that don't get my gist think of rendering as a Toll Booth on a highway. It's going to slow everyone down on that highway.

Motion sits on a highway that has a 200mph speed limit

AE sits on a highway with a 55mph speedlimit.

With Motion I'm getting to that Toll Booth a lot faster. 4-5 years is a lot of time. 5 years ago FCP was just hitting. Avid had left the Mac and Apple was struggling. Today FCP has over 250k registered seats. Apple has 5 billion in reserves and is debt free with a new UNIX foundation for their OS. Do I think the AE programmers are good...yes I do but I don't think they're as good as the ex Discreet team that put Motion together. Adobe had COSA's code to work with. Motion was created from scratch and not an aquisition.
 
jelloshotsrule said:
i agree that motion will probably reduce cost, but i don't think that it will reduce the need for talented artists, right igav? ;)

I hope not!! hahahahahahahahaha! :p
 
It's always all about me, isn't it?

I have been anxiously awaiting Motion. Now, I'm not sure whether my machine will run it. I've got a dual-gig Quicksilver with 1GB RAM running 10.3.4 and a GeForce 4 MX card with 64MB VRAM. Will that work? Will gladly update to 10.3.5 since it seems to be, from all indications, a pretty painless update.
 
TNeile said:
I have been anxiously awaiting Motion. Now, I'm not sure whether my machine will run it. I've got a dual-gig Quicksilver with 1GB RAM running 10.3.4 and a GeForce 4 MX card with 64MB VRAM. Will that work? Will gladly update to 10.3.5 since it seems to be, from all indications, a pretty painless update.


You'll need to upgrade your graphics card. These are the current supported cards

One of the following graphics cards:
— ATI Radeon 9800 XT
— ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
— ATI Radeon 9700 Pro
— ATI Radeon 9600 XT
— ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
— ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
— ATI Mobility Radeon 9600
— nVidia GeForce Go5200
— nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
 
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