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Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
In the end, yes, but[ Altivec is] not directly designed for that. It's *directly* designed to process vectors. Vectors are numbers with directions, whereas normal numbers without directions are called scalars. A direct application of vectors is in physics.[/B]

Whoa! This is almost like saying that derivatives are mathematical representations of slopes of a curve when we are talking about options and futures.

The vector we are really talking about in Altivec is a nx1 matrix of numbers. In the case of computers n is 128 and the numbers are bits (1 and 0)--or an exchange of these values as we'll see in an example below. Now a vector in physics is a nx1 matrix of numbers. In the case of your example, n is 3 (1 magnitude and 2 direction if in three dimensions). But it can also be 4 (adding time to position, or energy to momentum for Special Relativity), or 6 (3 position and 3 momentum values in advanced classical mechanics), or perhaps 10 (I'm told String Theory uses this, I guess that's the number of dimensions you need so that everything gets symmetric), or sometimes infinity (a "wave function" in Quantum Mechanics is an infinitely-dense, infinite-dimensional "vector" in something called a Hilbert Space). The fact that both physics and computational "vectors" are representable by a nx1 matrix is the only reason they're both called vectors.

The aspect of "vector computing" that is interesting is SIMD, or the ability to apply a single operation on multiple sets of data (in parallel). Lets say we are talking about integers (typically 32 bits) we can perform the same operation of 4 of them at once--a 4x1 "vector" of numbers. If that represents 4 pixels that we are applying some filter to... you see the advantage of being able to perform that operation on 4 pixels of data at a time instead of one at a time: "vector computation". In the case of Velocity/Altivec/VMX (all brand names for the same thing) we can do this processing without cost; in the case of 3DNow/MMX/SSE, we lose the floating point unit to do so (we also have a smaller register space because we have to combine 2 floating point register into a single vector register)--I think you can intuit that vector processing likes a lot of registers to drop intermediate results into.

A program is "vectorizable" to the extent that it can be mapped onto this sort of computing. For example, if the next action the program depends on the result of the previous action, then what is the advantage of being able to perform the same action on multiple sets of data simultaneously? Software which deals with manipulating large data sets (scientific computation, photo editing, video editing, audio processing, rendering) is usually what sees the biggest gain. Deciding whether or not the user clicked on the "OK" or "Cancel" button in Word is not going to see any benefit by vectorization.

In other words, some software we use today (iTunes, iMovie, Photoshop, rendering windows in Mac OS X, etc.) runs faster with such a unit available, but not so for Office and our database-based web application--the last case deals with large amount data, but not manipulating it.

Where physics "magnitude and direction" enters into it... I fail to see.

Take care,

terry
 
It's already been established that physics vectors and chip design vectors are different things. I had been confused because they were both called "vectors", and that in both cases they were different than "scalars".

That said, perhaps it's time to note that the 970 was supposed to debut at a maximum of 1.8 GHz, instead it started at 2.0 GHz. IBM is overachieving, which is what we all want to see. It's a far cry from anything Motorola ever did ever since cancelling the Book E G5/8500 three years ago.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
It's already been established that physics vectors and chip design vectors are different things. I had been confused because they were both called "vectors", and that in both cases they were different than "scalars".

Yes, so I noticed after the fact. However my post explains why they are both called "vectors" even though they mean different things. Also I distinguish between vector computation (a la supercomputers) and SIMD (a subset of vector computation) as well as the differences between PowerPC's SIMD implementation and the ones in Intel/AMD (known as MMX, SSE, or 3DNow).

That understand is important when comparing p****s size as well as when making a purchase of your next computerr--it's important to understand what exactly you are paying extra bucks for.

Also note that there are significant advantage for vector processing in scientific computation (which is related to your comment and perhaps a cause of your confusion).

One thing I didn't mention is that Intel's compiler (ICC) automatically detects at compile time whether or not vectorization will cause a speedup in code and will auto-vectorize parts of code to take advantage of it. This is why Pentium SPECmarks are so high (Dell and others run SPECmarks on ICC, not gcc like Veritest did for Apple). I imagine that VisualAge (IBM's compiler) does something like this because IBM sits on all the patents on this sort of thing. There is a note in Ars Technica that IBM engineers announced the possibility of such a thing for gcc if the gcc team will accept the patches (this is not foregone as gcc is based on portability so most accepted optimizations are not back end).

However, it does leave the option of Apple supplied patches to gcc so us common folk (with Developer Tools or XCode which uses gcc as its compiler) can get SIMD speed without any extra programming work. Apple already maintains small patches to many open-source code bases (many of which are available on their Darwin website) including gcc so this is a possibility.
 
Its all vector units to me

Thank you guys for the explanations on the word 'Vectors'. Now could you could please tell us all why 'Chips' is used to describe computer parts when we all know that the edible chips were here first?
 
Let me reiterate this.

Originally posted by Snowy_River
With regards to these comments, don't you understand that the IBM G5 (PPC970) is Apple's plan B?


What utter hotwash! Apple tried from the very beginning of hearing about the Power4 to get it made into a PowerPC processor. It was never 'plan B'. Apple is trying to get the fastest PowerPC processors that can be made.

It was about two years ago that Moto truly demonstrated their failure, when they discontinued their development of the G5 (PPC8500?). That was when (if we are to believe what evidence we have at our disposal) Apple approached IBM to start development of the PPC970.


Apple approached IBM to get a PowerPC version of the Power4 long before Motorola gave any sign of delaying development of the next generation of PowerPC host processors. Even if Motorola did make a new PowerPC processor Apple would still have gone ahead with trying to get IBM to make a cut down version of the Power4 chip.

It's clear that Apple is trying to move away from Moto entirely.


Baloney! Apple will still be buying PowerPC processors from Motorola as long as Apple is still buying PowerPC processors. Apple is simply not going to limit themselves to only one supplier of processors. The same thing was the case with Apple still buying processors from IBM when the G4 came along. The G4 was just as clearly superior in performance to the IBM's G3 as the G5 is to the G4, yet Apple continued to use the G3.

On the plus side, if the rumors of Mohave are correct, then we might well see it in the near future, as IBM will have a 'G4' type chip for Apple to use for it's lower end products.


IBM's 750 series of PowerPC processors are far inferior in performance compared to the 7500 chips from Motorola. The 750FX is up to 900 Mhz on a 130-nm process size and the 7457 will top out at 1.8 GHz, that's double the frequency of the 750FX.

This is something that it's hard to blame IBM for. I think that this is likely the fault of Apple marketing and Moto. Apple marketing has long held that consumer level products shouldn't outperform their Pro-level machines. So, because the G4 was lingering at a maximum of 800 MHz by 2001, there were not going to be any 1GHz G3 to be found. Even now, the fastest PowerBook is at 1GHz, so you don't find anything faster the 900MHz in the iBook (which is now the only G3 processor in the Apple line).


What a hoot! The reason IBM's 750 series of PowerPC processors have not progressed beyond Motorola's is simply due to economics. Apple's sales are too small to justify investing enough money to make substantial upgrades to the architecture of the 750 chips. As for the 970, it's essentially just a cut down version of the Power4 chip. IBM just tacked on Altivec to it. There simply is not enough money to be made in creating a whole new architecture exclusively for Apple's small marketshare.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
That said, perhaps it's time to note that the 970 was supposed to debut at a maximum of 1.8 GHz, instead it started at 2.0 GHz. IBM is overachieving, which is what we all want to see. It's a far cry from anything Motorola ever did ever since cancelling the Book E G5/8500 three years ago.

Motorola's 7455 processor was supposed to top out at a maximum of 1 GHz. Motorola supplied Apple with 1.42 GHz 7455 processors. That's 42% above the listed maximum frequency. That's also about a tripling of frequency since the G4 processors first became available. Motorola's upcoming 7457 processors are listed for a maximum of 1.33 GHz and yet internal Motorola documents state that it will top out at 1.8 GHz on a 130-nm process. Clearly you are ignoring the reality of the situation.

Also, it took 41 months for PowerMac G4s to go from 500 MHz to 1.42 GHz. That's an increase in frequency of 2.84X. The Pentium 4 increased in frequency 2.1X in 31 months. Clearly Motorola has been advancing the frequency of the PowerPC processors supplied to Apple at a slightly faster pace than Intel has with the Pentium 4. This whole idea of Motorola dropping the ball on this is just a bunch of baloney.

Motorola has not taken in enough money from sales to Apple to justify the torrid pace of capital investments in chip making or processor architecture upgrades that Intel is making, but then no chip manufacture has been able to match the pace that Intel is setting in this regard.
 
Motorola

Motorola needs to be tarred and feathered, but unfortunately, that's all I could do with GraphicConverter in a short of time as I had before going to bed.

Jaedreth
 
phinius, you don't find it even the slightest bit convenient that no G3 has ever been released that equals the clock speed on whatever G4 was in the powerbook at the same time? Even though IBM said it had gotten the G3 to 1ghz two years ago? Do you think apple would allow the ibook (the only apple machine still on the G3) to be running a 1.5ghz G3 while the powerbook was hanging out at 1.0? Did you notice that the second the powerbooks went to 1.0, the ibooks bumped up to 900mhz? No, this doesn't prove anything. But it sure looks suspicious to me. Then again, IBM doesn't have a ton of motivation to spend money improving this chip, something like 200,000 units last year from apple, plus however many sold to upgrade makers (which doesn't seem like it can be a whole lot.)
 
Re: Re: Re: IBM has never shipped a G5 on time

Originally posted by Phinius
In October of 2000 IBM announced that the 750FX would hit speeds up to 1 GHz and as of yet there has been no 1 GHz 750FX produced. In fact IBM is now stating that the 750FX will only go to 900 MHz.

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that IBM has up until now been unable to produce a PowerPC processor that can match the speeds of Motorola's PowerPC processors. Yet you claim IBM is the good guy and Motorola is the bad guy. Geez...
The G3 at Motorola and IBM are the low power PPC chips, ramping up the speed would eat up the power advantages of these things.

They're ramping the speed up slowly while maintaining the low single digit Watt figures.

If you look at some of the integrated CPUs IBM and Motorola are offering in the PPC line, you'll probably see the power curve start sub 1W -- but they definitely won't be 1+ GHz chips.
 
I've decided Phinius is actually the Iraqi Information Minister who has been recently employed at Motorola.

Apple asked IBM to make the 970 as a Plan B either in case the Book E 8500 was cancelled by Motorola, or because it was cancelled. The Book E 8500 was cancelled by Motorola. Which is why we have the 970.

Oh, and incidentally, Motorola spent an entire year twiddling their thumbs as the G4 stayed at 500 MHz interminingly. And this was after the G4 was released and then speed-dumped by 50 MHz because an "errata" prevented the G4 from going above 450 MHz. And that was after the G4 was scaled down from the multicore beast it once was into a meek G3 with AltiVec and a better FPU.

And this was after Motorola dropped the ball on G3 production, necessitating that IBM do all the work.

Yes, Apple needs a second chip maker, optimally. But Motorola has failed. Any product using a Motorola processor will likely be delayed and held back. The need to dump Motorola outweighs the need to have a second chip maker.
 
i dont know why people say that its not possible at the current time to annonce a g5 pb (no-1s saying release, but just to annonce it) everyone talks about heat dissapation issues and the fact the pm g5 hasnt been released yet (will be by aug/sept)

if apple do want to use a g5 it is possible at the g5 @ 1.2GHz dissapates 19w which is acceptable, no-1 argues with the fact that @1.8GHz is dissaptes too much heat (49w) for a portable. By apple using the G5 would also be great marketing.....here come the g5 the same famly of chip which is in 'the most powerful computer'.

then they can move the ibook to g4 so peeps can have a superdrive and use idvd, keynote and other products which say alvitec recommended.

only if......
🙄
 
Do you make everything up or just get your info from rumor sites?

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac


Apple asked IBM to make the 970 as a Plan B either in case the Book E 8500 was cancelled by Motorola, or because it was cancelled. The Book E 8500 was cancelled by Motorola. Which is why we have the 970.


Well why don't you show everyone your inside information about this since you claim to know this. The 8500 was never intended for Apple's use since it is not a host processor. It was and still is listed on Motorola's website as a product. Don't let the facts confuse your incredible judgement.

Also, Motorola's G5 processors were never intended to perform at the same level as the 970. So even if Motorola was now making a G5 processor, Apple would still want the 970 to be the topend chip for the pro Macs.

Motorola designs the host processors used in Apple's computers with the intent of moving them down through the PowerPC line eventually. By selling the PowerPC host processors in other markets, Motorola can keep low prices on the processors that Apple uses. If Motorola designed a processor for Apple's exclusive use, then the cost per chip would have to be raised significantly because of Apple's small market share in personal computers.

Oh, and incidentally, Motorola spent an entire year twiddling their thumbs as the G4 stayed at 500 MHz interminingly.


Do you realize that every chip manufacturer has delays? Intel was originally supposed to release the upcoming Prescott in the third quarter and then it was pushed back to the fourth quarter of this year. IBM's 750FX has not yet been reached 1 GHz as the company had announced in October of 2000.

And that was after the G4 was scaled down from the multicore beast it once was into a meek G3 with AltiVec and a better FPU.


Show us where that is stated. It seems you get most, if not all, of your information from rumor sites.

And this was after Motorola dropped the ball on G3 production, necessitating that IBM do all the work.


The 'G' designation that Motorola uses stands for the generation of the chip architecture. IBM and Motorola design their chips independent of one another. Simply because Apple uses the term G3 or G4 does not indicate that IBM and Motorola have the same chip designs. The only thing common between the IBM and Motorola PowerPC processors is the instruction set and not the chip architecture. This is much like what happens with AMD and Intel desktop processors. What's in common between the two companies designs is the instruction set.

Yes, Apple needs a second chip maker, optimally. But Motorola has failed.


What chip maker would step in and make a processor exclusively for Apple's tiny market share? The answer is none. Apple has to use Motorola for a second PowerPC chip suppler due to the fact there are only two PowerPC processor manufacturers. If Apple turns to another computer processor manufacturer it will more than likely be Intel and that would occur after IBM or Motorola can no longer supply competitive processors to what Intel can offer. Apple would simply be buying yet another off-the-shelf component to make sure that they can compete in personal computers.

Any product using a Motorola processor will likely be delayed and held back.


Show everyone where that has consistently occured with Motorola over the years.

A Motorola executive recently stated that they intend to double the frequency of the PowerPC processors about every 18 months. Judging from other statements that the company has made it would appear that Motorola intends to take the G4 to a listed 2 GHz on the 90-nm process sometime next year. That would occur from about a 35% increase from the process shrink and also up to a 20% increase in frequency with the addition of a low-k dielectric coating. A low-k dielectric was used on some of the G4 chips that were supplied to Apple on the 180-nm process and it will be more extensively used as Motorola gets more experience in using it.

Motorola delayed getting to the 130-nm process and the next generation of PowerPC processors probably due to being severely in the red for several fiscal quarters in a row. It would have been foolish of the company to keep spending at the rate they were and expect to turn a profit. There were cutbacks to get back in the black and the chip making division was not immune to this. Incidently, Apple's falling sales did not encourage Motorola to keep increasingly pump money into making major upgrades to the host PowerPC processors.

It's more than likely that Apple and Motorola worked out a plan where Motorola would use its limited chip making funds to work on increasing the frequency of the G4 chips. Motorola did this by adding SOI, low-k dielectric and boosting the voltage of some of the processors that Apple bought. In the end the G4 on the 130-nm process will be at about 10% lower frequency than the G5 that Motorola had planned. Also because Motorola will be able to shrink the G4 significantly on a 90-nm process, two G4 processors will be put on one chip. If Motorola was making the G5 that would be much less likely to have happened. There is more than one way to obtain performance, having a older chip architecture does not necessarily mean a slower overall performance.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: IBM has never shipped a G5 on time

Originally posted by Sun Baked
If you look at some of the integrated CPUs IBM and Motorola are offering in the PPC line, you'll probably see the power curve start sub 1W -- but they definitely won't be 1+ GHz chips.

Look on IBM's website, the 750GX will be produced on the current 130-nm process and it will run up to 1.1 GHz.

Man, I don't know where you guys get your misinformation.
 
Re: Let me reiterate this.

Gee, mighty argumentative, aren't we?

Originally posted by Phinius
IBM's 750 series of PowerPC processors are far inferior in performance compared to the 7500 chips from Motorola. The 750FX is up to 900 Mhz on a 130-nm process size and the 7457 will top out at 1.8 GHz, that's double the frequency of the 750FX.

I just thought that I'd comment on this. This, based on what information we have available, is simply not true. If it were true, then we wouldn't see 800MHz iBooks outperforming 867MHZ PowerBooks in benchmark tests in everything but Altivec tasks. That rather clearly shows that the 750 series is not inferior to, oops, sorry, I was comparing it to a 7400 series chip. My mistake. I guess I don't have access to the specs on the, to date, vapor-ware 7500 series PowerBooks.

For that matter, I haven't even hear of a 7500 series chip. Isn't the latest greatest chip that we know exists (seeing as how you have summarily dismissed any knowledge that comes from rumors) the 7455? Isn't that still a 7400 series chip? Well, given that, I guess a 7500 series chip from Motorola might outperform a 750 chip from IBM... if it ever comes into existence.

But, the simple fact is that even if Moto does get the 7457 chip out, we have no reason to think that it will outperform, per clock cycle, the 7455. And we already know that the 7455 does not outperform, per clock cycle, the 750FX, except in Altivec tasks. So, if a 750VX (Mohave) is produced by IBM with an Altivec compatible vector unit on it, it will likely outperform the 7457 per clock cycle, and might even be capable of reaching higher clock speeds. Further, IBM's plant technology is far advanced over Moto's and they can therefore produce such chips for less. So, Apple would have the option of having a G4 class of chip that could outperform the latest, greatest G4 from Moto for less money.

Finally, I think that I'd like to agree with what others have said. Yes, Apple wants to have more than one supplier, but Moto isn't a good candidate. They have publicly stated that they are getting out of the desktop processor business. And their chip fab capabilities are falling way behind the cutting edge, where Apple needs a chip supplier to be.

Whether Apple chooses to drop Moto or not is not up to us, and we can really only sit by as observers. But, I, for one, think that it is in Apple's best interest to do so.
 
Originally posted by panphage
Did you notice that the second the powerbooks went to 1.0, the ibooks bumped up to 900mhz?
Actually, they didn't. They went to 800 MHz when the 867 MHz/1 GHz PowerBooks were introduced, and to 900 MHz about five or six months later.

HTH
WM
 
But, the simple fact is that even if Moto does get the 7457 chip out, we have no reason to think that it will outperform, per clock cycle, the 7455. And we already know that the 7455 does not outperform, per clock cycle, the 750FX, except in Altivec tasks. So, if a 750VX (Mohave) is produced by IBM with an Altivec compatible vector unit on it, it will likely outperform the 7457 per clock cycle, and might even be capable of reaching higher clock speeds. Further, IBM's plant technology is far advanced over Moto's and they can therefore produce such chips for less. So, Apple would have the option of having a G4 class of chip that could outperform the latest, greatest G4 from Moto for less money.
Absolutely.

Finally, I think that I'd like to agree with what others have said. Yes, Apple wants to have more than one supplier, but Moto isn't a good candidate. They have publicly stated that they are getting out of the desktop processor business. And their chip fab capabilities are falling way behind the cutting edge, where Apple needs a chip supplier to be.
I agree. It would be better for Apple to have multiple suppliers, not just for the sake of options, but also to promote bit of competition between suppliers to improve their products which in turn help Apple. But Motorola simply has not been able to step up to the plate and do something.

But as much as I would like Apple to dump Motorola, I wonder what such action would mean for Apple's future. Apple will have to rely solely on IBM's efforts. However at the moment, IBM seems more than capable of handling the task.
 
IBM and Apple

IBM is more than capable of handling the tasks...

IBM makes as yet the worlds fastest computers. Nobody can touch them when it comes to their Mainframes. Nobody.

AIX is the most secure and stable System V variant.

Apple would do well to just drop Motorola entirely, and trust in IBM. Especially if further technology exchange were to occur.

There were speculations years ago of kicking Moto out of AIM, and putting in AMD. That's not gonna happen these days...

Nor would it be good for Apple. Not unless Apple were going to make actual PC's that run an AMD version of OS X (not Intel)...

But I don't see Apple going into that market...

Unless Apple did something very devious, and didn't sell Mac OS X for AMD separately in the box... But again, that would still never happen.

So who would replace Motorola? Who could do as good a job as IBM? In my opinion, no one. We don't need no water let the MF burn. Burn MF, Burn...

Jaedreth
 
Phinius, I suggest you learn how to use quotes.

Originally posted by Phinius
Well why don't you show everyone your inside information about this since you claim to know this. The 8500 was never intended for Apple's use since it is not a host processor. It was and still is listed on Motorola's website as a product. Don't let the facts confuse your incredible judgement.

The 8500 was originally designed to be Apple's G5. It was codenamed Book E and was supposed to have come out a couple years ago. It didn't. Blame Motorola.

Originally posted by Phinius
Also, Motorola's G5 processors were never intended to perform at the same level as the 970.

That's because the 970 was designed at a later date, and intended for a later release. Chips actually perform at higher levels as time passes. It's called "innovation".

Originally posted by Phinius
Do you realize that every chip manufacturer has delays?

Staying at 500 MHz for twelve months isn't a delay, it's a catastophe!

Originally posted by Phinius
Show us where that is stated. It seems you get most, if not all, of your information from rumor sites.

Phinius, I suggest you remind yourself where this forum is hosted.

Originally posted by Phinius
The 'G' designation that Motorola uses stands for the generation of the chip architecture. IBM and Motorola design their chips independent of one another. Simply because Apple uses the term G3 or G4 does not indicate that IBM and Motorola have the same chip designs.

In the case of the G3, they did. The 603, 603e, 604, 604e, and G3 were all designed by IBM and Motorola at a joint facility. and manufactured by both.

Originally posted by Phinius
The only thing common between the IBM and Motorola PowerPC processors is the instruction set and not the chip architecture. This is much like what happens with AMD and Intel desktop processors. What's in common between the two companies designs is the instruction set.

Actually, AMD processors use their own proprietary instruction set. They have an extra unit to translate back into x86. This makes it feasible for AMD to replace Motorola--simply get AMD to produce PowerPC's, and they can sell them as x86 processors by attaching an x86 frontend to the processor.

Originally posted by Phinius
Show everyone where that has consistently occured with Motorola over the years.

1. Motorola promises a May release for the 7457. It's not out yet.
2. The 500 MHz for 12 months debacle.
3. Motorola dropping the ball on G3 production, necessitating that IBM take over all manufacture.
4. Failure to ever provide even compatibility with DDR SDRAM.
5. At initial release, the "errata" holding the G4 back to 450 MHz, necessitating the infamous "speed-dump."
6. Also at initial release, from apple-history.com: "There were extreme supply issues with the G4 initially, due largely to Motorola's inability to deliver the 7400 chips in adequate supply."

That's since Motorola became Apple's single supplier of high-end processors.

Originally posted by Phinius
A Motorola executive recently stated that they intend to double the frequency of the PowerPC processors about every 18 months. Judging from other statements that the company has made it would appear that Motorola intends to take the G4 to a listed 2 GHz on the 90-nm process sometime next year.

Wow. Sometime next year, Motorola will have a slower processor at the same frequency the G5 is at now! And by that time, it'll probably support a 250 MHz bus!

Originally posted by Phinius
There is more than one way to obtain performance, having a older chip architecture does not necessarily mean a slower overall performance.

You don't think a Motorola G4 next year will have a slower overall performance than a G5? The mythical dual-care G4 you keep blathering about still won't keep up with a G5. And if it follows Motorola's past history, it'll probably just be restricted to a single bus at one tenth the frequency, or be stuck at 1.5 GHz because of an errata.

I don't think Motorola could even add DDR support by 2004! Forget about dual-core. Motorola can't even reliably produce a single core processor.
 
Re: IBM and Apple

Originally posted by jaedreth
IBM is more than capable of handling the tasks...

IBM makes as yet the worlds fastest computers. Nobody can touch them when it comes to their Mainframes. Nobody.

AIX is the most secure and stable System V variant.

Apple would do well to just drop Motorola entirely, and trust in IBM. Especially if further technology exchange were to occur.

There were speculations years ago of kicking Moto out of AIM, and putting in AMD. That's not gonna happen these days...

Nor would it be good for Apple. Not unless Apple were going to make actual PC's that run an AMD version of OS X (not Intel)...

But I don't see Apple going into that market...

Unless Apple did something very devious, and didn't sell Mac OS X for AMD separately in the box... But again, that would still never happen.

So who would replace Motorola? Who could do as good a job as IBM? In my opinion, no one. We don't need no water let the MF burn. Burn MF, Burn...

Jaedreth
Jaedreth, I disagree with some of your positions.

IBM commercial mainframes are not fast. There are a number of Unix servers in the marketplace that will blow the doors off mainframes, and that is not a new development. IBM mainframes still exist for two reasons: Software and reliability. Software in terms of OS capabilities, especially in terms of virtual machine partitioning and workload management, but also, very importantly, in support of legacy applications. Reliability in terms of dual cores that check each other for errors (only one core's worth of real work gets done), redundant io channels, etc. IBM has been pushing this technology down into their Unix servers, but it still isn't close to parity. I have a feeling that you will come back with the "G5 gov'ment super secret thing", but that's not germane to the topic at hand.

As far as AIX goes, please add "in my opinion" since you cannot prove your claim. Many people (Sun and HP come to mind) would disagree with you, but again nobody can prove their postion, one way or the other; it's a holy war, among many. Sun was actually a close partner with AT&T during the development of the latter releases of System V Unix, having contributed a newly re-architected VM subsystem, among other things. So, to give IBM the Unix crown when IBM was actually *very* late coming to the party is a bit presumptuous. Now, of course, they are embracing Linux, so it's not clear where they are going with AIX.

Trust IBM? Right. Once they have you, they'll make you squeal like a pig. If you don't believe me, ask one of their long term customers. Some of them have been clients of mine. They'll give you the sun, the moon and the star, for free, up front, but they'll rape you on the back end, when you can't get away. It's kinda like a drug dealer. NOTE: This is my opinion and nothing more, and I'm not saying their technology isn't great, it's more their business practices that I'm concerned with.

With regard to AMD, I don't think they would be a bad choice to replace Moto at all. They are pivital in the HyperTransport consortium, of which Apple is a member and, now, a technology consumer. They are well regarded in the industry for their high clock rate designs and interconnect technology. Finally, they are not direct competitors. Bingo, sign'em up! This, in no way, requires, or even suggests, that Apple port to x86.

Well, that's it for me. I hope you understand that I simply disagree. Everyone has their point of view.
 
1. Motorola promises a May release for the 7457. It's not out yet.
2. The 500 MHz for 12 months debacle.
3. Motorola dropping the ball on G3 production, necessitating that IBM take over all manufacture.
4. Failure to ever provide even compatibility with DDR SDRAM.
5. At initial release, the "errata" holding the G4 back to 450 MHz, necessitating the infamous "speed-dump."
6. Also at initial release, from apple-history.com: "There were extreme supply issues with the G4 initially, due largely to Motorola's inability to deliver the 7400 chips in adequate supply."

That's since Motorola became Apple's single supplier of high-end processors.
This is so true. And another proof is the time when Dual Processor Power Macs came out. It came out around the time G4 speed update wasn't going any where. Some do speculate Apple introduced Dual Processor Power Macs in order to keep up with the speed war with PC's and also to keep up its sales.
 
Re: Re: IBM and Apple

Originally posted by WM.
What's the difference?

WM

AMD uses a proprietary instruction set they translate to Intel x86.

Mac OS X for the proprietary AMD instruction set wouldn't be nearly as good as an AMD-PPC though.
 
Originally posted by macphoria
This is so true. And another proof is the time when Dual Processor Power Macs came out. It came out around the time G4 speed update wasn't going any where. Some do speculate Apple introduced Dual Processor Power Macs in order to keep up with the speed war with PC's and also to keep up its sales.

Right. Notice also how they originally made duals only of the lower end processors. The high end processors were too rare to do that with.

Ahh, Motorola. Too bad that such a long-time Apple partner has turned into what it is today.
 
BOOO

This makes me want to get into the Mot presentation at the microprocessor forum this fall and just go up there and beat the crap out of the presenter.
On second thought... maybe just a loud obnoxious scene with lots of four letter words would sufice.
Go IBM!!
 
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