Mouse Support - The Missing Elephant

Discussion in 'iPad' started by neteng101, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. boston04and07 macrumors 65816

    boston04and07

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    #626
    If they do add it I hope they don’t limit it to just the newer model iPads. I’d love this on my 10.5” and would use it all the time.
     
  2. akash.nu macrumors 604

    akash.nu

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    #627
    Reasonable discussion should be with context. Some things are better left dead. I’m not saying iOS on iPad can’t evolve but just because another platform has a certain feature doesn’t mean every other competing platforms have to copy it, good or bad.

    I don’t disagree, but just a blatant copy is not the answer. An evolved and better interaction method is.
     
  3. Raist3001 macrumors 65816

    Raist3001

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    #628
    I wish folks would stop telling other folks what they should buy simply because they themselves see no value in mouse support for the iPad Pro. An option is there to be used if and when the need arises. That's a good thing.
    Apple is positioning the iPad Pro as a laptop replacement. It is not without reason that folks used to mouse support or trackpad support on a laptop would want the same option in an IPP. Why the potential for mouse support bothers some folks to the core is a mystery.
     
  4. boston04and07 macrumors 65816

    boston04and07

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    #629
    Exactly. It’d be there if you need it and can be ignored if you don’t. Just like using a Bluetooth keyboard. Why people bother to argue against something that wouldn’t actually affect them is beyond me.
     
  5. sracer macrumors 604

    sracer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    #630
    I agree, that would be nice, but I honestly wouldn't mind buying a new iPad Pro if the features listed by @jamesrick80 were exclusive to a future model.
     
  6. richpjr macrumors 68030

    richpjr

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    May 9, 2006
    #631
    People have been waiting for this evolved and better interaction since the very first iPad and...are still waiting.

    The irony of the entire anti-mouse argument is Apple teasing us by giving us cursor support when using the virtual keyboard.
     
  7. George Dawes macrumors 6502a

    George Dawes

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    #632
    After using it for the last few months I don’t miss the mouse on my iPad you can always use the pencil if you want pin point accuracy , otherwise the whole thing works very nicely with just the touch interface . The on screen keyboard on the 12.9 is amazing compared to my old iPad Air 2 .
     
  8. spacebro macrumors 6502a

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    Oct 1, 2015
    #633
    I don't fault people for wanting a mouse because they are used to it. However, the mouse would have never existed if we had touchscreens in 1970. It was a stopgap technology that we don't need anymore, except for people who want what they are used to. Folks should trust that apple has poured a lot of resources into the science of UI design and go with their well researched designs. I have a ton invested in the mouse/keyboard interface, many years playing counterstrike, my mouse skills are top notch. But I also spent a lot of time using the iPad with the Apple Pencil, and it's better. The mouse restricts you to a desk or a table when the beauty of the iPad is that you can use it on the couch or in bed. Use your desk for work, with a real laptop or desktop, and use your couch with the iPad for personal computing. You'll end up liking it better.
     
  9. rowspaxe macrumors 68000

    rowspaxe

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    #634
    The mouse is superior to touch for productivity apps as it allows user to address a tilted display with a flat 2d representation, ie, no "gorilla arm". Additionally, a mouse has left and right click options and a scroll wheel. Touch is fine for consumption and other simple ui's
     
  10. spacebro macrumors 6502a

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    Oct 1, 2015
    #635
    I know you're set in your ways but a touchscreen is infinitely more flexible than even a gaming mouse. An entire moving wheel, just to scroll, will not have a place in the future as more and more moving parts are removed from our devices.
     
  11. sparksd macrumors 68000

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    Seattle WA
    #636
    What specifically is wrong with Android's interaction?
    --- Post Merged, Jan 24, 2019 ---
    If mouse support was available, no one would force you to use it. The intent is that it would be optional for the user.
     
  12. richpjr macrumors 68030

    richpjr

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    #637
    It has zero to do with being set in one's ways and everything to do with how you use your iPad. If I am sitting on my couch, I'd never want a mouse as it makes no sense. Touch is great there. But when I am sitting at my desk with the keyboard attached, editing complicated documents, and constantly have to reach up and tap the screen is an ergonomic nightmare. Yes I could (and do) have two different devices, but the iPad is so close to being an all in one for an awful lot of cases that it is frustrating.
     
  13. sracer macrumors 604

    sracer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    #638
    Maybe peer pressure would cause some to use a mouse because they wouldn't want to be social outcasts.

    As for Android's support for mice, I find that most who claim there are "issues" with it either haven't used it, or haven't taken the time to consider the "when" and "where" it makes sense to use it. The key is to "think different". ;)
     
  14. jeremiah256 macrumors 65816

    jeremiah256

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    #639
    @spacebro, we're not cavemen. Saying we should learn the new paradigm that is touch is illogical when I'm pretty sure that when it comes to maximizing the capabilities of iOS devices, many of us pro-mousers can run circles around most of the people saying we don't need to have mouse or track pad support.

    As for the belief that Apple is making decisions primarily based on UI design, there is conflicting evidence. It can be argued that the new keyboards were designed for thinness first, UI second. The Touch Bar seems to have been added as an attempted response to market penetration of touch screen laptops, not as a logical, carefully researched step toward a better UI experience. Apple, who made fun of larger phones, finally bent the knee and admitted that smaller devices limit the better UI that can be achieved with phablets, and now that's pretty much all they build.

    And last, but not least, how will adding capabilities restrict you? Somethings are better with an external keyboard. Sometimes using the Pencil is better that using touch. And sometimes, using a mouse will be better than using a Pencil.
     
  15. spacebro macrumors 6502a

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    Oct 1, 2015
    #640
    Are we even talking about mice or trackpads? The paradigm already changed to trackpads starting around 10 years ago, finalizing with the Magic Trackpad 2, there is no reason to use a mouse anymore except for games like counterstrike. The paradigm is changing again to touchscreens with a stylus. Its pretty clear to many people that apple will eventually abandon the Mac. By then, us engineers will be forced to switch to linux machines, or more likely, connect to linux machines from our touchscreen thin clients. Things are guaranteed to change, its better to embrace the change than to resist it. I grew up playing muds, my WPM is huge, and playing counterstrike, so I'm probably in the top percentile with my kb/mouse skills. I have the most to lose by changing, but I'm saying its worth it.
     
  16. sparksd macrumors 68000

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    #641
    Great - now just give me a cure for my tremors so that I can accurately use just my finger or the pencil.
     
  17. AlexJoda macrumors 6502a

    AlexJoda

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    #642
    There is no continuous evolution from mouse to trackpad to touchscreen. The mouse and trackpad are indirect pointing devices that are not tight to a display. That is also the biggest advantage of them. You can have as big or as many displays you like with a mouse or trackpad and the movements from your hand are transferred to these displays with maximum precision and speed without even lifting it.

    The touchscreen on the other hand is an input method for special use cases like sitting on a couch with a tablet or phone and consuming media or surfing the web. You can’t replace the mouse or trackpad with a touchscreen but can do that the other way round if necessary with the exception of smartphones (although it would be sad because there are some fairly nice special use cases for the touchscreen...).
     
  18. subjonas macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2014
    #643
    Mouse, trackpad, touch, stylus—they all have different strengths and weaknesses, some of which are mentioned in this thread. No single method completely replaces any other. The best method depends entirely on the situation.
     
  19. Cape Dave macrumors 68000

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    Nov 16, 2012
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    Northeast
    #644
    The fact that we cannot simply use our input device of choice on the iPad is pure and simple insanity on Apple's part. Get it together Apple!
     
  20. aevan macrumors 68030

    aevan

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    Serbia
    #645
    Ah, but what if developers stop optimizing the interface for touch and just say “ah, f$&@ it, they’ll just use the mouse”?

    And what about context switching - where certain operations are better with touch and others with a mouse and I am forced to use both and switch between two completely different user experiences, or even worse, not be sure which to use as I am working?

    I’m not against the idea personally, but adding a mouse would have consequences and sometimes a “choice” is worse than just giving users one, well-thought-out way to do things.
    --- Post Merged, Jan 26, 2019 ---
    It may be a good idea to add a mouse, it may be a bad one - but one thing is certain: nothing is “pure and simple” about the decision to give or not give people that choice.
     
  21. StellarVixen macrumors 68000

    StellarVixen

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    #646
    iOS is basically watered down version of Mac OS anyway, so, everything Apple has to do is make iOS more like Mac OS.


    Many people would be surprised to know how similar iOS and Mac OS are.
     
  22. aevan macrumors 68030

    aevan

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    #647
    Depends on the criteria used to measure similarity.
     
  23. secretk macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    #648
    That is a good point! And let's not forget that the more options you add, the more difficult is to maintain said software. Like you said they will have to test that the app works equally well for both touch input and mouse input (and in some cases pencil input).

    That's the thing though. Like you said there are certain operations that are better with touch and others better with a mouse. Why not offer the best possible option for those cases and leave out the other one? For example I would not read PDF file using a mouse (highlighting with pencil is definitely better) but I also would not use touch input to work with big Excel files. The only case where I would open Excel file in a touch input device only is to annotate stuff. An app can always detect mouse and change its workflow based on this. I don't think that people would want to use both mouse and pencil. For me it's one or the other and I do believe that Developers can make their code recognizing this.

    This is true. Problem is the current option we have is not a well thought-out one. The moment I connect my iPad with a keyboard I would not want to use touch input. It's simple as that. It's completely uncomfortable to use keyboard and touch input in the same time. And the truth is that if I want to type a long text, I would not use touch input. Sorry but it's slow and I like to type fast. I don't want to waste time.

    I agree. It's not that simple. And that is valid for both sides of the argument. I don't think that it's easy to just add mouse to iOS. I also do not think that it's that easy to make the touch input as good as the mouse is for certain cases. If it was that easy, we would not have had so many arguments about this. It's obviously not simple.
     
  24. sracer macrumors 604

    sracer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    #649
    I disagree. It IS that simple. Not only has Android had support for mice for years (without any ill effect), jailbroken iPads (starting with the 1st gen iPad) could install an app to use mice. It didn't interfere with the touch UI and, like Android, was optional. I used it back then and it was excellent.

    The fear that adding support for mice would result in apps requiring mice. That is an unfounded fear because (A) Apple has a tight grip on the app store and could impose restrictions on mice exclusivity, and (B) history has shown that optional accessories don't drift into becoming required.

    A physical keyboard for the iPad has been around since day-1 of gen 1. And yet, there aren't any apps that REQUIRE a physical keyboard... there are no apps that depend upon key combinations for keys that don't exist on the onscreen keyboard. Android apps never required mice.

    I think it is sad that a $100 Amazon Fire HD 10 supports mice, and USB peripherals and yet Apple's flagship Pro iPads don't.

    You assume that it is a technical reason why Apple hasn't included support for mice. It's not. It is a marketing and design decision. Adding mice (and universally accessible file system) would pretty much snuff out segments of the Macbook (Pro and non-Pro) lineup. THAT is perhaps the primary reason.

    When a new feature is optional and transparent to those who don't want it, then I can't see a reasonable argument against that feature.
     
  25. sparksd macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Location:
    Seattle WA
    #650
    Yes, just like what Apple tells developers for use of game controllers -

    Controllers Must Be Optional on iOS and OS X
    Even though controllers are intended to enhance gameplay, not every person who purchases your game is going to own one. Therefore, never require the use of game controllers in your game. If a controller is not available, your game must provide alternative controls.
     

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