Mouse Support - The Missing Elephant

Discussion in 'iPad' started by neteng101, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. secretk macrumors 6502

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    #651
    Could be :). I have not used Android with mouse so I can't comment on how it is working and what is the user experience.

    Also true. I assume that apps can be used with and without Pencil and with and without keyboard. So that is true.

    That's true!

    Agree with you there. Apple's reason to not include mouse support is primarily money and marketing. iPad users have technical concerns, but I really do not think that Apple has even thought about the technical side effects on such solution. It's because they simply do not want to do it.

    In other words I see iPad users' concerns because not everyone can imagine how mouse support would work with iOS but I do not think that this is what stops Apple. Apple just does not want to do it.
     
  2. Cape Dave macrumors 68000

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    #652
    Precisely. Amen.
     
  3. alex2792 macrumors 6502a

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    #653
    iPad will never replace a computer without mouse support.
     
  4. AlexJoda, Jan 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019

    AlexJoda macrumors 6502a

    AlexJoda

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    #654
    I don't understand this argument that Apple do that because they don't want to cannibalize MacBook sales. With iPad Pros selling for more than $2000 it doesn't matter if they sell an iPad Pro or a MacBook....
     
  5. aevan macrumors 68030

    aevan

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    #655
    Well, you also think software development is not hard, so I am not surprised you find this simple. That’s the problem, I think you’re oversimplifying all of this: “just plug in the mouse and be done with it because I had no problems with it”.

    But the fact is, if we had mouse support from day one, perhaps we would never have intuitive user controls of apps like Procreate - it would be far easier to do a traditional UI. The fact that people usually use the thing they are used to (and not potentially the best thing) would just force developers to focus on mouse controls, because people are not even willing to give gestures and adaptive UI a chance.

    Also, personally (and I know you’ll disagree with me here as well), I don’t think Android is a good example for anything other than phones anyway, so it means little to me that they have mouse support. And, again, I’m not saying it can’t be done, but not without consequences. Just to be clear, I would actually welcome mouse support because I’m stuck in the old ways for certain things, but I can understand why they are pushing a different approach for iOS.
     
  6. secretk macrumors 6502

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    #656
    While there are people that can do everything they need on an iPad Pro, most people can't so they end up buying both Macbook and iPad. Lack of mouse support is most probably one of the few reasons (the others being lack of file system, support for external storage devices and extending monitors support) for people to not being able to go only with iPad. If Apple starts adding those features people will choose either Macbook or iPad but would not buy both.
     
  7. sparksd macrumors 68000

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    #657
    I just went on an 8 day trip where I decided to leave the laptop at home and just take the 10.5” iPP. Each day I took several hundred pictures – all RAW format – and some videos. I originally planned on just backing the pictures up to a portable HDD every day, using a RAVPower FileHub. But I ended up with free time and I really wanted to do some processing using Lightroom on the iPP. But I found the associated file handling (I wanted backup of processed images to the HDD and I had very poor Internet access) and finger manipulation of Lightroom controls to be too inefficient for processing for anything more than a handful of images. Next time, I will take the laptop, mouse, and external SSD drive; the iPP will tag along as the very nice consumption device I find it to be. My experience, YMMV.
     
  8. AlexJoda macrumors 6502a

    AlexJoda

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    #658
    Your comment shows the problem very clear....The sad thing is that the iPad would be absolutely able to do that from the hardware side.
     
  9. Cape Dave macrumors 68000

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    #659
    Truth. A perfect argument FOR mouse!
     
  10. sracer macrumors 604

    sracer

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    #660
    I don't know where you live, but it's a stretch to say "more than $2000" as if that is the typical price.
    Do you know how many MacBook Pro owners also own iPad Pros? If the iPad pro had thises added features, there is less reason to own both.
    --- Post Merged, Jan 26, 2019 ---
    You don't give Apple much credit do you? They've spent a lot of resources in designing their keyboard offering, Pencils, and no thought at all on a physical mouse? :confused:

    That's certainly a part of it. But the major driving factor is the herd mentality. If Apple doesn't provide something then most Apple customers don't believe they need it. After the iPad 2 was initially released, Apple quickly discontinued the keyboard dock. Between that time and the release of the Apple Smart Keyboard, Apple did NOT produce a keyboard. During that time there were many heated discussions between the pro-keyboard and anti-keyboard people (identical to the debates about mice now). "If you want a keyboard, get a Macbook!" was the common retort.

    But lo and behold, the day that Apple produced the ASK, suddenly those anti-keyboard people were all on board.

    The same was true for the Pencil. As some clamored for an active stylus, the anti-stylus crowd claimed, "you HAVE a stylus, it's called your finger." When the Pencil was released, these anti-stylus people were all on the Pencil bandwagon... so much so, that when the Pencil 2 was released, they immediately jumped to the next gen.

    The same will be true with support for mice. Apple is reserving the release of mouse support until a time when they need it to boost iPad sales. When they do, most who are currently anti-mouse, will be singing its praises.

    What would change to cause them to think differently about a mouse? Apple said it is good to want a mouse. (by releasing mouse support)
     
  11. adamfozzy macrumors member

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    #661
    It's all part of the strategy from Apple. Each device they make has some limitations to push customers towards buying the device that fills the gaps. Here are few examples:
    Someone may buy an MacBook Pro but will also want an iPad for sketching/note taking to supplement their laptop.
    An iPad Pro owner may use it as only device when moving around creating digital art etc but then buy an iMac for the desk to get full file system, OS and mouse support.

    We all know that Apple could easily add a touch screen to a Macbook and adjust MacOS but they want customers to buy the additional iPad to compensate. Likewise, Apple could easily add mouse support to iPad but they want customers to buy the Macs too.

    The problem is that when people are spending over £1000 on a device, they want it to be their only device. Such as iPhone XS max owners on the forums wanting to plug their phones into a monitor, mouse and keyboard and get a full desktop experience. Apple does not want this though for obvious reasons.

    The problem is the marketing terms that Apple have used to sell iPads such as 'laptop replacement' means people are looking for the iPad to do everything. There are therefore two contradicting narratives coming from Apple.

    From my personal experience, I spent a few years working solely on an iPad mini. I delivered iPad training in schools for teachers and would send my invoices from it when I got home. It was all I needed. Then 2 years ago I put all my resources as videos and made a website, which I could not edit on an iPad (Wix etc). Therefore I was forced to buy both but eventually sold my iPad and bought the Macbook 12 inch. I love it and find it like an iPad in terms of portability but then has full desktop/trackpad etc and not an artist or note taker so don't miss the touch screen really. If Apple continue with bringing iOS apps to Mac this year, even better. It's horses for courses.
     
  12. secretk macrumors 6502

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    #662
    Let me put it like that. We are talking about mouse support not about nuclear physics. Obviously adding mouse support for iOS is not an impossible task. If Apple has not done it, it's not because they can't do it. It's because they do not want to do it.

    That is true and it's something we see on this board every day. Someone wants something and gets told to buy some other device. I also see it all the time on youtube when people review Apple products. It's like they review an iPhone and if iPhone does not have some feature (that every Android phone has no matter the price) you hear how that feature is not important at all. Then Apple adds it to the iPhone and those same people start telling you how awesome this feature is and you are like "WTF". However on the other hand the fandom itself is responsible for this.

    That is actually why I am happy to own iPad, Android phone and Windows computer. Now it's true that I do not get some fully polished ecosystem but I also have the freedom to get advantage of three different platforms. And I can easily compare them and say what I like in each one of them and what I dislike in each one of them. That for me is the best approach. All those platforms have good and not so good things and honestly it would be better if those platforms compete with each other and learn from each other and thus drive each other to be better. And for this to happen all fans need to demand more and better features.
     
  13. AlexJoda, Jan 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019

    AlexJoda macrumors 6502a

    AlexJoda

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    #663
    I am living in Germany were the Apple Products are even more expensive than in the US. But even in the US my gen 2 iPad Pro 12.9 512 GB cellular would cost $2172.95 with accessories and AppleCare as a gen 3 model. And that is not even the most expensive model...

    Although my iPad has no mouse support (apart from my remote apps) I am still not buying an additional new MacBook (stay with my old but gold 2012 MBP non retina for the rare occasions I need a 15" notebook).... Beside my iMac 5K for the MacOS work I am using a small Surface Go as a mouse compensation on the road (as long as the iPad did not has one...).
     
  14. canesalato macrumors 6502a

    canesalato

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    #664
    In the Apple bubble we are still debating. In the meanwhile, on youtube:
     
  15. Neodym macrumors 68000

    Neodym

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    #665
    If Apple insists to market the iPad Pro as a full computer replacement, they have to support mice at some point. It may start for a desktop setting (that’s probably the default scenario for mouse support) with the iPad docked in some way and then trickle down to (more) mobile use as well.

    However, in the long run it would mean that it’d become increasingly different to distinguish MacBooks and iPads, which could lead to the long-feared (by some people) convergence of macOS & iOS as well as (entry-level) MacBook & iPad Pro.

    OTOH: What happens if you could get rid of the display of your work device by using an AR solution (which Apple is reportedly working heavily on)? Could there be better ways of interfacing with the system beyond using Touch, Pencil or Mouse? Perhaps even _required_, as in how to interact with a truly 3D interface? Normal mice would be clumsy to use in such a setting, Pencil obviously doesn’t work without a display and Touch - well, again: without Display no conventional Touch anymore ...
     
  16. AlexJoda, Jan 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019

    AlexJoda macrumors 6502a

    AlexJoda

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    #666
    Daniel describes the problem very good but I was not going that far to replace the iPad entirely because the Surface is such a terrible tablet. As a consequence I stay with my gen 2 iPP 12.9 and add the relatively cheap and light Surface Go with the great backlit Surface Type Cover with trackpad. The combined price is still lower than the new iPP and it gives me so much more value.

    In contrary to the Surface 6 the Go has a USB-C port that allows me to connect a USB-C dock with all the necessary ports (HDMI, USB-A, USB-C, Ethernet). I often connect an external display (if it is a USB-C display the Go would be even charged trough it) which has real value as an extended display to me. My newest discovery is to use my 12.9 iPP as a second display for the Go with Duet! This works best with a USB-C to Lightning cable because with USB-C the iPP will be also charged when connected to the Go (this does not work with the USB-A to Lightning cable). The 12.9 Retina display as the main display is a real upgrade to the 10" Go display. At the same time I use the iPP as a LTE modem (hotspot) over the same USB connection. So there is a real good synergy between the two devices!

    To get the best possibly portability I replaced my 3 chargers (iPhone, iPad and Surface Go) with one Aukey charger that has one 45W USB-C PD port for quick charging the GO, the IPP and the iPhone XR and one USB-A 10.5W port for a second device if the USB-C port is in use. The charging times for all 3 devices are extremely improved with this 45W charger! As a bonus I found the Betop Surface Connect to USB-C charging cable that allows me to charge the Go with the USB-C charger over the Surface Connect port and use the USB-C port for a second display or the dock. I can also use my Citrix X1 or Swiftpoint Bluetooth mouse for both devices!

    With this package I have the best of both worlds but sadly not in a single device....

    If Apple really speculates to urge customers to buy an additional MacBook by crippling the iPad this can also go "in the wrong direction" in Apples sense with people doing the same as Daniel and I did...The new iPad Pro is simply too expensive and too powerful to cripple it with a phone OS.
     
  17. Johanart macrumors newbie

    Johanart

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    #667
    I am very happy with my iPad Pro 12.9 first generation. I use it daily for work and made no more paper notes ever since. I can reach our companies Citrix server but to make it work easy, one needs a mouse. So I use a Surface for it. I am very interested in the latest iPad Pro (higher processor speed,etc.) but waiting for the new IOS WITH mouse supporting otherwise I leave Apple for perhaps a Surface.
     
  18. sparksd macrumors 68000

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    #668
    You've got a long wait ahead of you.
     
  19. gtjeta macrumors member

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    #669
    For Remote Desktop you have the Citrix x1 and swiftpoint gt mouses which are compatible with iPad. Take a look on them
     
  20. tps3443 macrumors regular

    tps3443

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    #670
    If apple could incorporate something similar to black berry. Like a integrated mouse that works as on screen track pad. Tap the screen 5 times, and a circle pops up. And that circle acts as a trackpad for your finger to control a cursor.

    External mouse support is fine too lol.
     
  21. rmariboe macrumors newbie

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    #671
    That doesn’t explain the horrid Surface Pro implementation - I wouldn’t underestimate the power of industrial religiousness, which many here point to as the sole reason for accepting the mouseless environment that is iOS, keeping consumers to a product line that’s turned awry and unimaginative, lemming like developers stumbling down the same, wrong path in a race to catch up to eachother’s bad decisions:eek:|

    I really hope so - but still fear the consequences :)

    Anyway, I think it’s an acceptable middle way to have each developer implement their own support for mice - which is the current state - so they’re forced into an active choice rather than defaulting to what they know and work with on their Macs.
     
  22. canesalato, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019

    canesalato macrumors 6502a

    canesalato

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    #672
    I respect your point of view, but disagree. I think a touch screen is superior to a mouse when the iPad is flat, but a mouse is always superior to touch when the screen is vertical (like when we use an external keyboard). Therefore, i feel "per app" support doesn't make much sense. Furthermore, iOS for the iPad has really grown too fragmented already! Do we want more fragmentation?
    Some apps support the Files App, some are optimized for big screens but don't have multitasking, some have all these features but lack rounded corners, some support keyboard shortcuts etc. It's really a mess already.
     
  23. secretk macrumors 6502

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    #673
    I completely agree with this with one additional note - if the device is in vertical position and you are on the bed you might want sometimes to use touch screen. However that's more like corner case than a general occurrence. If you use the iPad on a desk in a vertical position you need mouse or trackpad.

    Very good point about the fragmentation! It is a mess indeed.
     
  24. ascender macrumors 68020

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    #674
    In many ways it’s such a strange device. I decided it wasn’t a suitable laptop replacement for me and the lack of some sort of pointer was one of the big reasons - as people have said, when its vertical, it seems to really miss a pointer as you end up having to reach over and touch the screen.

    But... having forced myself to use an 11” with keyboard for my last few trips away for work, I’m really starting to love using iOS and the iPad for many more things than I previously did. I think the re-learning of keyboard shortcuts has something to do with this as I’m zipping around the UI much more quickly than I used to be able to do. I’ve worked in technology all my life so am used to keyboard shortcuts and learning new interfaces, but I think possibly I dismissed the possibility of this as a laptop replacement too quickly.

    I’m still not convinced just adding mouse support is the way to go, but there is a missing “something” in the software/hardware which I think would really improve many peoples’ ability to use the iPad as their primary device.
     
  25. Cape Dave macrumors 68000

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    #675
    And that thing it is missing, it is mouse support. Plain and simple.
     

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