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FUD. You think H.264 decoding is done at the gate level on your chips ? These are programmable ASICs you're talking about. The H.264 decoding is actual a software program that runs on top of it. This can be updated to do VP8 and you will get the benefits by updating the software on the device, not by changing the device completely.

Your posts are usually bullying and either (clueless|dishonest), and this is no exception. Yes, everyone is going to open up their device and flash the ASIC. Or, maybe device manufacturers are going to issue a firmware update that will (where it's possible, which won't be every device) enable and perform such a flash?

Get real. I am relatively sure that such a thing has never happened. It's a ridiculous claim of "possibility".
 
Your posts are usually bullying and either (clueless|dishonest), and this is no exception. Yes, everyone is going to open up their device and flash the ASIC. Or, maybe device manufacturers are going to issue a firmware update that will (where it's possible, which won't be every device) enable and perform such a flash?

Get real. I am relatively sure that such a thing has never happened. It's a ridiculous claim of "possibility".
in todays world those updates would happen.

lets see for computer graphic cards that are running windows the MS will include the firm were updates along with their updates.
MS is allowing some 3rd parties to send update threw them. Normally for things like graphic drivers and what not. Since graphic cards are either ATI, Nvidia or Intel chipsets those companies could include the firmware update along with a driver update.
So desktops are covered.
As for cell phones again that firm ware updated could and more than likely would be shoved out along with another OS update for those phones.

These means that most things will get those updates along with other updates for their devices.

Apple being stubborn as it is I could see not sending out the firmware updates for hardware VP8 so yet again only a minor part of the market gets leftbehind.
 
in todays world those updates would happen.

lets see for computer graphic cards that are running windows the MS will include the firm were updates along with their updates.
MS is allowing some 3rd parties to send update threw them. Normally for things like graphic drivers and what not. Since graphic cards are either ATI, Nvidia or Intel chipsets those companies could include the firmware update along with a driver update.
So desktops are covered.
As for cell phones again that firm ware updated could and more than likely would be shoved out along with another OS update for those phones.

No offense, but you're confused--this is a different operation.
 
Your posts are usually bullying and either (clueless|dishonest), and this is no exception. Yes, everyone is going to open up their device and flash the ASIC. Or, maybe device manufacturers are going to issue a firmware update that will (where it's possible, which won't be every device) enable and perform such a flash?

Get real. I am relatively sure that such a thing has never happened. It's a ridiculous claim of "possibility".

Uh, what devices that are web connected don't get firmware updates ? Remember, WebM aims to replace H.264 for the WEB, not for Blu-rays or portable video devices or PSPs or anything else...

What is dishonest about my post ? You think nVidia or ATI never issue driver/firmware updates ? iPhones or Androids never get updates either ? The PS3/Xbox 360 are never updated ?

No offense, but you're confused--this is a different operation.

And I think you're really not understanding how modern hardware/firmware works. Drivers these days load a custom firmware into hardware on boot. There are many such Blobs in the Linux kernel, some that even need to get extracted from Windows drivers, in order to even get the hardware to work.

This isn't 1974. You don't need to Flash hardware using a special program. Most of these updates can be taken care of with simple driver updates or OS images in the case of phones and mobile devices.
 
No offense, but you're confused--this is a different operation.


Oh I know firmware updates are very different that a software update. But often they can load them in and prep them to be flashed in on the next full system restarted.

If the phone is connected to a computer for an update a non issue i can flash the phone and restarted it. In todays world is it not hard to the reflashing of a computer graphic card. It just has to be preloaded in the right spots and that can be programmed in.
 
Uh, what devices that are web connected don't get firmware updates ? Remember, WebM aims to replace H.264 for the WEB, not for Blu-rays or portable video devices or PSPs or anything else...

What is dishonest about my post ? You think nVidia or ATI never issue driver/firmware updates ? iPhones or Androids never get updates either ? The PS3/Xbox 360 are never updated ?



And I think you're really not understanding how modern hardware/firmware works. Drivers these days load a custom firmware into hardware on boot. There are many such Blobs in the Linux kernel, some that even need to get extracted from Windows drivers, in order to even get the hardware to work.

This isn't 1974. You don't need to Flash hardware using a special program. Most of these updates can be taken care of with simple driver updates or OS images in the case of phones and mobile devices.

Be specific, please. Name a few mobile devices which have flashed peripheral ICs during end-user updates?

For the record, I write ARM assembler for a number of devices, so feel free to not condescend about what I might not know. :)
 

Seriously, do you have any hindsight into how my posts are clueless and dishonest, because for someone asking for a lot of specifics, you sure don't provide any yourself :

http://www.ihackintosh.com/2009/07/difference-between-iphone-baseband-bootloader/

(I'm seriously waiting to see what you reply now. Baseband updates on iPhone, which are part of the OS updates, are basically updates to the ASIC which controls the phone part of the device... I seriously hope for an apology from you).
 
Seriously, do you have any hindsight into how my posts are clueless and dishonest, because for someone asking for a lot of specifics, you sure don't provide any yourself :

http://www.ihackintosh.com/2009/07/difference-between-iphone-baseband-bootloader/

(I'm seriously waiting to see what you reply now. Baseband updates on iPhone, which are part of the OS updates, are basically updates to the ASIC which controls the phone part of the device... I seriously hope for an apology from you).

I'm not providing any because I wasn't making any claims. You were. I thought your example was going to be something relevant to your original claim, but it's not.

The sort of thing you're referring to is different from the topic at hand. That's why I think your posts are bullying--you subtly move the goalposts in order to berate people into silence. To wit: Higher-end phones are designed for the baseband-ware to be upgradeable. In lower-end phones, you have to take it apart and flash it, because they're not built for that. You're talking apples-to-oranges.

The presumption here (*your* original assertion) is that we're talking about an arbitrary ASIC, not a component in a system that has been designed to be updated. That's what I'm talking about, because that's what you started with. Not anything else. Where is your evidence of an ASIC that isn't central to a high-end system (such as the baseband in an iPhone) being upgradeable in this manner?

The fact is that DSPs/ASICs for video encoding and decoding in the embedded world are rarely if ever generic and re-programmable on the fly. We aren't talking about adding support in the driver of Foo nVidia video card. Can you provide an example that's on-point?
 
I'm not providing any because I wasn't making any claims. You were.

This isn't a claim ?

Your posts are usually bullying and either (clueless|dishonest), and this is no exception.

:rolleyes: Back it up. Where I have been clueless or dishonest ?

The fact is that DSPs/ASICs for video encoding and decoding in the embedded world are rarely if ever generic and re-programmable on the fly. We aren't talking about adding support in the driver of Foo nVidia video card. Can you provide an example that's on-point?

Since usually video codecs are not released on a 6 month basis, no. That is a loaded question and you know it. I provided a source to show you that ASICs even in mobile phones can be reprogrammed. They sure can in PCs with hardware blobs (most wireless cards and even GPUs require uploads of such firmware in BLOB form on initialization).

I am not moving goalposts, simply dismissing the fact that you need to replace all your hardware. First, it's not all of it, only your HTML5 supporting, web access hardware would be impacted since WebM is aimed for web use only. Second, the logic for H.264 is not at the gate level on this hardware and as such, companies can update the firmwares in the hardware. Be it through JTAG or existing soft update mecanisms. A lot of HTML5 supporting web access hardware is updated via software, which contain firmware level code (case in point, baseband phone updates).

You have done a lot to question my posts and try to deride my comments, but you have provided little factual evidence...
 
I'm not providing any because I wasn't making any claims. You were. I thought your example was going to be something relevant to your original claim, but it's not.

The sort of thing you're referring to is different from the topic at hand. That's why I think your posts are bullying--you subtly move the goalposts in order to berate people into silence. To wit: Higher-end phones are designed for the baseband-ware to be upgradeable. In lower-end phones, you have to take it apart and flash it, because they're not built for that. You're talking apples-to-oranges.

The presumption here (*your* original assertion) is that we're talking about an arbitrary ASIC, not a component in a system that has been designed to be updated. That's what I'm talking about, because that's what you started with. Not anything else. Where is your evidence of an ASIC that isn't central to a high-end system (such as the baseband in an iPhone) being upgradeable in this manner?

The fact is that DSPs/ASICs for video encoding and decoding in the embedded world are rarely if ever generic and re-programmable on the fly. We aren't talking about adding support in the driver of Foo nVidia video card. Can you provide an example that's on-point?

no you are the one moving goal post.

Both things Knight and I are talking about were this type of stuff matters would be in smart phones, desktops/laptop computer, game consols, and bluray players.

All of can and do often receive updates over the web. All of which have firmwire updates sent to them and easily installed.
You are the one trying to agrue devices that would not recieve them. Most of those devices that are very hard to for the user to install a firmware update to play VP8 chances are it can not play h.264 and also it is not in the target group for VP8 any how.

WebM is meant for the web. Most devices that connect from the web can and do receive software updates. In those during those software updates it can flash its hardware.....

I think you are grasphing at straws here.
 
Even then, I don't know of many Web enabled blu-ray players that even support the HTML5 video tag.

while true they could easily be updated to do it.

The point is Blu-ray players I know have received multiple firmware updates over the web.
 
Since usually video codecs are not released on a 6 month basis, no. That is a loaded question and you know it. I provided a source to show you that ASICs even in mobile phones can be reprogrammed. They sure can in PCs with hardware blobs (most wireless cards and even GPUs require uploads of such firmware in BLOB form on initialization).

Yes, it was a loaded question... loaded with, you know, the context that actually matters here. Yes, some ASICs can be reprogrammed. Duh. Nobody questioned that.

Just to be clear, you've now admitted that for the topic at hand it's not (necessarily) the straightforward operation you suggested it was. Since we agree, I'll now amicably move on. ;)
 
while true they could easily be updated to do it.

The point is Blu-ray players I know have received multiple firmware updates over the web.

Yes, they very much do, we agree on that point.

Yes, it was a loaded question... loaded with, you know, the context that actually matters here. Yes, some ASICs can be reprogrammed. Duh. Nobody questioned that.

Context matters, and I kept context. I didn't switch from reprogrammable ASICs to general purpose processors. You just narrowed it to programmable ASICs that do video hardware decoding and got a new codec added. Essentially, you moved the goalposts by making the context narrower and that is the part of your question that was loaded. You knew the answer was no.

Just to be clear, you've now admitted that for the topic at hand it's not (necessarily) the straightforward operation you suggested it was. Since we agree, I'll now amicably move on. ;)

Nope, I never admitted to that. You may think so because you changed the topic, but I never got into your trap in the first place, I called it out. I maintained my position that even for mobile devices, ASICs get updated, provided proof of it, in a straightforward operation.

And he says I'm dishonest and bullying. Pot, meet kettle.
 
while true they could easily be updated to do it.

The point is Blu-ray players I know have received multiple firmware updates over the web.

Actually, the point is whether or not the hardware decoder chips are designed to accept firmware updates in current devices. I don't know the answer, but your examples aren't relevant.
 
WebM is meant for the web. Most devices that connect from the web can and do receive software updates. In those during those software updates it can flash its hardware.....

I think you are grasphing at straws here.

Cite a handheld, web-enabled device that has enhanced a dedicated (co)dec unit with a new codec via a normal end-user update. Unless you can do that, I am most definitely *not* grasping at straws.
 
Cite a handheld, web-enabled device that has enhanced a dedicated (co)dec unit with a new codec via a normal end-user update. Unless you can do that, I am most definitely *not* grasping at straws.

Original Goal posts -->

Coleridge78's posts ----------------------------------------------------->
 
Fine, how about you pay then for a license to H.264 for them and anyone who forks their code base so that the code isn't tainted by patent license concerns ?



They also didn't have to pay a license. The Flash plugin is not part of Firefox nor was it supported by the Mozilla foundation. Where did you even get this ? Adobe paid the license to MPEG-LA and distributes the plug-in themselves.

Mozilla and the Firefox project are not involved in Flash. At all.



Hence why there's WebM and why Google completely opensourced VP8 after their acquisition of On2. Because H.264 is a problem, same as GIF was and we don't need to repeat the mistakes of the past. Let's have all the players support the Free and free alternative, which is as good if not better in some usage scenarios (PNG had full alpha channel vs GIF's transparency on/off bit). WebM is that. Every consumer/vendor wins by having WebM be adopted for Web use.

Set top boxes and proprietary systems and optical media can still use H.264 if they like.

My whole point is that unless Firefox figures out a way to support H264 then I think many Firefox users are going to have to stick with Flash for awhile. Right now any company that has HTML5 video has to have a Flash fallback for 90% of the world. Firefox will just have to keep this fallback because I can tell you nobody is going to use Ogg or WebM. WebM may have a shot but without widespread industry support I just do not see it going anywhere. As somebody that works in a media production company I would rather use the same H264 encoded file in HTML5 and Flash then have to spend the time encoding a duplicate version.

A lot of on demand video will be switching to HTML5 in one form or the other but live streaming video that needs DRM will continue to be H264. I see no hardware based realltime encoders even thinking of supporting Ogg or WebM. I could be wrong but I just don't see it happening. I think both formats will end up being like Linux. It is there and it is open source but the industry will be lucky to see even 5% market share.

By the way Firefox is my browser of choice and I use it all the time.
 
Original Goal posts -->

Coleridge78's posts ----------------------------------------------------->

Yes, because we all know that the original point wasn't the updating of dedicated DSPs/ASICs for video decoding on embedded devices.

Oh wait, yes it was. That was your stated point. Explicitly.

And you wonder why I called you a bully. :rolleyes:

The funny thing is you could have made a perfectly reasonable and accurate market case to support your desired outcome, but you chose a dubious technical one instead because it's easier to browbeat people with jargon.
 
I can tell you nobody is going to use Ogg or WebM. WebM may have a shot but without widespread industry support I just do not see it going anywhere.

I don't know if you've heard of them, but there's these guys that have pledged WebM support :

http://www.youtube.com/html5

I know they are quite small and really have no reason to push WebM into the mainstream but...

A lot of on demand video will be switching to HTML5 in one form or the other but live streaming video that needs DRM will continue to be Flash.

Fixed. Because H.264 does not have any DRM, that is up to the container and streaming software to handle. HTML5 does not have facilities for DRM'ed video in and of itself :

http://apiblog.youtube.com/2010/06/flash-and-html5-tag.html
 
Yes, because we all know that the original point wasn't the updating of dedicated DSPs/ASICs for video decoding on embedded devices.

Nope, the original point was that BabyjenniferLB thought you had no choice but to replace hardware to add functionality. I pointed out that these things use programmable ASICs and that gate level logic is a thing of the past.

You decided to narrow it down to video decoding on embedded devices. The fact that video decoding on embedded is new and that in that time H.264 is about the only codec that appeared on the market leaves little examples of what you ask for.
 
Nope, the original point was that BabyjenniferLB thought you had no choice but to replace hardware to add functionality. I pointed out that these things use programmable ASICs and that gate level logic is a thing of the past.

You decided to narrow it down to video decoding on embedded devices. The fact that video decoding on embedded is new and that in that time H.264 is about the only codec that appeared on the market leaves little examples of what you ask for.

This is how it is. Why is it that you guys think "hardware h*.264 decoding" is some kind of gate logic applied only to H.264 ? Seriously, this idea that somehow "H.264 hardware decoders" can only decode h.264 in hardware needs to die. One simply needs to add a new decoder in the firmware to have the hardware be able to decode it.

*I* narrowed it down, eh? Seriously now. :rolleyes:

A system has to be designed specifically for the case of a DSP or ASIC being re-programmed on the fly (and many such ICs don't afford that possibility at all, which you've ignored). This isn't done unless there's good reason to, and the occasional nature of codec appearances is in fact evidence of why it's unlikely many devices would be able to do this.
 
I don't know if you've heard of them, but there's these guys that have pledged WebM support :

http://www.youtube.com/html5

I know they are quite small and really have no reason to push WebM into the mainstream but...



Fixed. Because H.264 does not have any DRM, that is up to the container and streaming software to handle. HTML5 does not have facilities for DRM'ed video in and of itself :

http://apiblog.youtube.com/2010/06/flash-and-html5-tag.html

Sorry I meant H264 with Flash. Our company mostly does Flash RTMPTE streaming for customers that absolutely need DRM controlled and secure video. I didn't know Youtube was getting into live RTMP streaming. Very interesting. Thanks for that link.
 
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