Multi (Leo/Vista) boot RAID0 arrays from SSDs

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by gugucom, Aug 4, 2009.

  1. gugucom macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #1
    As we discussed in other threads it could be particularly advantageous to use SSD RAID0 arrays for dual or even multiple booting. With a decent amount of striped SSDs the idea is to run all your operating systems and applications with high speed. At least that is the theory. To test the idea I have decided to use two Maxtor 160 GB HDD in a very basic dual RAID0 array configuration for booting OS X and Vista-64 in AHCI mode. Here we go:

    First thing I learned is that you have to partition the HDDs prior to building your array.

    Second thing I learned is that you have to keep it all in HFS+ to make it work.

    So now I have used disk utility to create two equal size partitions in HFS+ with GPT on both HDDs.

    Next I fused the two lower partions together for a first RAID0 array named 2R-Leo. Format is still set to HFS+ and RAID0 mode is selected.

    Then I fused the two upper partitions together for a second RAID0 array named 2R-Vista. Here format is also set to HFS+ and RAID0 mode is selected.

    With that done I exited the disk utility to get a fresh start on it. I then entered disk utility again.

    Now comes the formating of 2R-Vista from HFS+ to NTFS. To make things easy I have 3rd party NTFS drivers from Paragon. So here I went to the formating section of disk utility (I think it is named deleting) and deleted the 2R-Vista array with NTFS. Obviously you can also use FAT32 if you do not have Paragon NTFS. I prefer the right format because I will try to take a shortcut to installing Vista from a Winclone image that has AHCI drivers activated.

    At this point we are ready to clone OS X from an existing boot drive to the 2R-Leo array. I'm using disk utilitie's restore section for the job. I'm now ready to boot from my 2R-Leo array. Booting went without problems.

    Now comes the bummer. :(:confused:
    Neither a Windows DVD nor the Winclone program recognizes the 2R-Vista array. I'm stuck at this point. What can I do to make EFI and Windows recognize that I have another bootable partition here?
     
  2. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #2
    I tried alternatively to create one large HFS+ partition and cloned OS X on it. Then tried to use the BootCamp assistent and got the error message that external drives cannot be partitioned.
    :(:( It looks like there is no way around dedicated arrays at this time.
    At least I have not messed with my SSDs. I can simply throw the Maxtors out and refit my Data and Windows HDDs :(:(

    Anybody any ideas??
     
  3. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

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    #3
    Does it absolutely have to be HFS+? What about a real software RAID available in several OS's? ZFS's RAID-Z maybe? Something else?
     
  4. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #4
    This is something I do not understand. Perhaps I need a bit of help here.

    What I ideally want to do is buy a third SSD to have enough capacity to run Vista as well off my SSD array. Again in an ideal world I would like to stripe a RAID0 array of 3 SSDs that will be partitioned into an OS X and one Vista partition. Obviously in this case I have to be able to boot both operating systems from their respective partitions. This is where I fall down. It appears to be impossible with the chipset controller of the Mac Pro and the disk utility.

    My next idea would have been a hybrid SATA controller with 3 internal ports and perhaps 1 external for eSATA. That controller would need the capability to boot OS X and Vista. Obviously a RAID0 array also needs to be partitionable by the associated controller software. I do not know if this is unrealistic.

    The RAID-Z seems to be a software which I don't understand. Can you give me a bit of a noob lowdown on that, Tesselator?
     
  5. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

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    #5
    I haven't tried to do anything like this before so I dunno much. I would at first assume one could have NTFS and HFS+ partitions RAID'ed on the same set of RAID members. But you indicated that wasn't possible? If so then I would want to find a bootable filesystem that can be used by both Mac OS X and Windowz - and also Linux if needs be. The first one that popped into my head that (I think) meets those criteria is ZFS.

    ZFS is Sun's 128-bit filesystem and because of so many wonderful features has been ported to Windoze, Linux, and Mac OS to name but a few. It's a fairly new creation - only about 3 or 4 years old. OS X Server I believe ships with it standard from 10.5 onward. It's often a "1st choice" of those in home server environments or of folks who are really stressing their drive I/O including RAID users. The RAID levels it supports (which are many :D) has something called ZPOOLING which is like "dynamic expansion" and through vdev you can just add drives as needed.

    Anyway, it's kewl. Or looks kewl to me in any case. If you wanna duplicate the reading I've done on it just start here: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/zfs/ I guess. Wiki probably has a page on it too.

    I haven't tried it for anything like what you're doing so I don't know if it's a workable solution or not. I would recommend looking into it though.


    .
     
  6. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #6
    Thank you Tesselator for the link. To my total embarassement I have to admit that I'm completely lost. I have pretty much zero knowledge of software engineering and this is way over my understanding.

    My impression is that I have to install an operating system on a hard drive and then get it to host the other operating systems that I want to run (OS X and Vista). It seems to involve a measurable amount of code and server technology which I do not understand at all. I do not doubt that it may be an elegant solution in the hands of a capable software engineer but I do not have the necessary education to understand it.

    My hope is that nanofrog comes along and suggests a suitable SATA RAID card that would do the job and comes in at under 200$. I'm afraid I have to keep it on a user level and rely on some clever product which only needs installation. This I am confident I can do.
     
  7. Tesselator macrumors 601

    Tesselator

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    #7
    OK, well what happens if you create two NTFS partitions, and then two HFS+ partitions, and then create a RAID of each pair? Does that work or does it tell you to bugger off?

    BTW, there's not much to understand. ZFS is just another filesystem like HFS+, NTFS, and etc. I think OS X can boot from a ZFS partition but I'm not positive.


    EDIT: Yeah, both sentence one and sentence two above are correct - just tried it. So just do that then. Very simple!
     
  8. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #8
    Unfortunately I have no clue how to create a ZFS partition in the first place. This whole dual booting system has to be run with EFI firmware as that is what the Mac Pro uses. So how would I get a ZFS driver installed that will allow me to create a partition? I know how to install a Paragon NTFS driver which allows me to create NTFS partitions in disk utility.

    Regarding the creation of two HFS+ and NTFS partitions I have described in my first post how I tried that way. Unfortunately neither Winclone out of OS X nor Windows installer recognizes the NTFS array. They only see the single disks and obviously cannot install there.


     
  9. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #9
    Yes. :)

    Unfortunately, that's not the case. You create one array under OS X, the second under Windows. One OS can't read the partition tables created by another. I've never seen this successfully done, and it makes sense, as each OS handles the low level operations differently.

    Windows can't read the GPT created by OS X. You proved this by formatting with Paragon IMO. ;)

    If you still want to try this, create the partitions via the Boot Camp partition tool. DO NOT attempt to create an array under OS X for Windows.

    You should end up with 4 partitions total (pre array creation). Assemble two in an OS X array, and the remaining pair will have to be created under windows. Assuming each partition is 80GB, this won't be a problem.

    But it would be the method I described in the other thread. Install Windows on one of the Windows partitions (use BC, as I think it will install the AHCI driver at the beginning for you), create the array, and reinstall windows to the array (or clone if you wish). If you want to clone, you'd need to run the BC driver set prior to installing on the array.

    If you need it, I made a .zip of the AHCI drivers. (Creating the partitions a tad differently may cause these to get skipped, and need to do a manual driver load during Windows installation). Perhaps a clone isn't the best way to proceed on this either.

    ZFS/RAID-Z/RAID-Z2 won't work under HFS/s, NTFS, FAT16/32. The file systems just aren't compatible. It only works under ext2/3 IIRC.

    Apple was claiming they were going to place this functionality in the Server version of Snow Leopard, but pulled it. I'm assuming they were having too many problems with getting it to function correctly with their file system.

    Let me know if you're willing to try the BC method described above before giving up.

    If need be, I can help direct you to a card, but it won't exactly be inexpensive, as multiple boot capability is rare, and on the higher end models (when you find it). Skip Highpoint, as they can only boot one OS (different firmware needs to be loaded, for the OS intended for boot). That leaves Areca and Atto, which do have cards that can. But figure ~$500 - $600 for a minimal number of ports (likely 8).
     
  10. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #10
    Thank you nanofrog for the lengthy appreciation of my efforts. I'm definitely not spending 500$ on a dual boot controller because the money would be better spent on additional SSDs and a cheap internal controller for windows.

    I'll give it one more shot at Bootcamp. I have tried that for a single array already, and obviously I have used Paragon to create a second NTFS array which wasn't recognized.

    I will use Bootcamp for the first round of partitioning. Its a bit of a PITA to clone OS X on both first partitions but I will do it. I will then try to install Windows but I have little confidence that the Intel Matrix Storage controller will allow me to build a RAID0 retrospectively once I have one partition installed with Vista/AHCI. At that point the game should be over. But perhaps I can run an additional Vista/AHCI drive which will allow me to form the array. I'll be back with some results.

    Edit: proceeding well. Could create Bootcamp partitions without cloning OSX first.

    Edit2: I do remember now that you can load the Intel Storage Manager for the 632ESB2 controller in two different flavours. There is RAID and AHCI. I have never tried RAID. In Vista that is possible via F6 and USB stick. Perhaps Vista installer will present me with a new utility. Keep the fingers crossed.
     

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  11. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

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    #11
    great thread!! just chiming in, i am planning on doing the same thing with two 500GB HDDs for my hackintosh. i am going for a walk then off to uni then ill be back to help :)
     
  12. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #12
    I have cloned OS X on the HFS+ array.

    Then proceeded with booting Vista64 install DVD.

    Found the two Bootcamp partitions and formated with NTFS as required.

    Then loaded ESB2 RAID driver from USB stick. Unfortunately no utility becomes available as speculated. Installer telling me that my BIOS may not support certain functionalities.

    Proceeding to install Vista64 on first of two NTFS partitions to see if RAID utility pops up later in the proceedings.
     
  13. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

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    #13
    ok so keep in mind that my system will be a hackintosh :)

    OSX cannot be installed onto anything but the GPT correct? and because windows cannot read the GPT then that is kind of a sticky situation... using the Bootcamp Assistant, could one create one big RAID0 of two 500GB drives (i.e. total of 1TB), then use the BootCamp tool to partition it evenly, however that wont give you the option of selecting where the data will be held.. (ok so that wont work).

    ahhh i see now, format the two 500GB drives, install OSX onto one of them, run Bootcamp Assistant on the first drive, split it 250GB, then attempt to do it on the second drive (does it need OSX installed on it?). that could work i guess.

    that was my idea of it too, using Disk Utility create the partitions then use the individual OS's to format them together.

    clones = no no for this situation i think, especially for windows. for OSX it might be ok. what are AHCI drivers? do i need them for PC or are they purely for the OSX/bootcamp side of things?
     
  14. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #14
    NP. :cool: I wouldn't either, if there's a way around it. ;)

    The Intel Matrix Storage Controller can operate in either AHCI or RAID mode, and IIRC, both are included in the drivers.

    Edit: proceeding well. Could create Bootcamp partitions without cloning OSX first.

    OK, you did find this on your own. Usually the RAID or AHCI settings are accessed in the firmware, but you can't. So you're going to have to work around that, and I know it can be done. :D

    I didn't expect it would. :( Hence the description of having (no choice) to install on one partition to begin with, just to set up the array.

    Once you get that intitial install (no array), you need to go into:
    1. Control Panel
    2. Administrative Settings & Tools
    3. Computer Management
    4. Storage
    5. Disk Management
    6. Right Click the first partition you want to use, and select New Striped Volume. A wizard will start.

    Hopefully, you'll be able to go from there with smooth sailing. :D It can be found on the web if you need to do a search. ;) Might be faster than waiting for members on the forum, as I'm assuming you're keen on success, and want it sooner than later. :p

    In your case, this should actually make things a tad easier. ;)

    That's what they do on the Mac. I'm assuming it's the only way, but I don't know for sure. I'd have to verify it's the only way on the hackintosh forums.

    You're not using a Mac, so you shouldn't be using BC at all. :eek: :p

    I'm assuming you've windows already installed, and have hacked it with OS X as well, but no stripe sets. Is this the case?

    You used BC to install OS X the first time?

    For some reason, I'm thinking you shouldn't, particularly as it's written (drivers in particular) for a different board. It's not far off the way you did it before, but you have to go into Disk Util in OS X to set up the array.

    You'd need to create the Windows version as well, and you can use the above steps listed out for gugucom. Go ahead and get into the firmware first though, and set it for RAID under the SATA drive settings. It does work. ;)

    Now you could load the RAID drivers during a fresh windows install, but the method listed above may be easier, as I don't know the details as to how you set up your system. (i.e. How easy it is to get to the settings for creating an array, as some are in the firmware, some aren't).

    The board I'm using for example, would depend on which controller I choose, as it has 3 (ICH10R, Marvell SATA, & Marvell SAS). Headaches galore, as I can only do so much, due to the boot restrictions of only one of them at a time. To switch around (booting), I have to enter the firmware and change the settings. :rolleyes: It's a PITA, so I had to carefully think about what I set. (I originally wanted the optical drive on a separate controller than the other drives I use for backup on ICH10R). I can do it, but I can't boot a DVD, or I can't use one of the backups for cloning purposes, and boot from it when the **** hits the fan (eventual, not maybe). :p

    Now if you're board is using a different controller chip, such as a Marvell, you will have to again set it for RAID operation in the firmware, but the driver will need to be loaded during the windows install (so windows can actually see it).

    Clones would be a really good idea once you get both OS's setup properly, as all the RAID settings are there. It could simplify their installation if you ever run into a problem. ;)

    I hope all of this helps the both of you, and not make a big mess. :eek: :p
     
  15. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #15
    Thx nano, you are great! I had not known that you can stripe drives out of Windows.

    I cannot do the striping and I asume that is due to the fact that I have Windows already installed on that Partition. I will reconfigure and fit a drive that has Windows already installen then I will again format both NTFS drives and try to stripe them.
     
  16. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

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    #16
    good thinking, definately worth a shot! from my Cert III days i am fairly certain that an active boot disk cannot be striped and changed in anyway, so you will need a seperate bootdrive to do it..

    my mind compeltely skipped this process!! it makes perfect sense!


    excellent, the fact that everything isnt EFI makes it a lot easier too :p i dont think (from memory) that it needs to be a GPT using the modded version of my installer, id have to double check that though.. so thats a great plus!


    yea on the mac there are alot more hurdles unfortunately :(


    no i shouldnt and wont, it was part proposal for the OP part random idea ;) albeit, a lame one though.

    that is the case yes, but currently OSX resides on a seperate 40GB HDD, XP sits on the 500GB WD HD. i have yet to purchase the 2nd HDD for this experiement.


    :-S how could i install OSX with BC?? BC installs windows OS's lol! but no, i used the normal OSX install method to install it.

    i wasnt aware that i would need to change firmware settings or anything, i thought it would automatically be recognised when you run through the steps you listed above?? hmmm

    [quote[The board I'm using for example, would depend on which controller I choose, as it has 3 (ICH10R, Marvell SATA, & Marvell SAS). Headaches galore, as I can only do so much, due to the boot restrictions of only one of them at a time. To switch around (booting), I have to enter the firmware and change the settings. :rolleyes: It's a PITA, so I had to carefully think about what I set. (I originally wanted the optical drive on a separate controller than the other drives I use for backup on ICH10R). I can do it, but I can't boot a DVD, or I can't use one of the backups for cloning purposes, and boot from it when the **** hits the fan (eventual, not maybe). :p[/quote]

    currently booting is very easy, i have a bootloader installed on each HD and i hit F8 upon startup to choose which HD i want to boot (then the individual bootloader kicks in), so i cant see it being too hard to re-implement this system. my Gigabyte mobo seems fairly competent with dual OS's and all that..(and I can boot from DVDs if i want :rolleyes:)

    come to think of it, your right. i can make an image of my current OSX drive, set everything up then reimage without any problems... it makes sense. is it also possible to restore XP in this manner? (maybe via WinClone or Ghost?)

    im slowly getting there, just want to make sure that i have all processes sorted before making the plunge, $70 is a big investment for me :cool: :p ;)

    p.s. nano, what are you like at networking? (no reason)
     
  17. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #17
    I presume you can't borrow one? (Yes, I know this is difficult). ;)


    DOH! You know what I meant. ;)

    But if you didn't I meant in the sense of installing OS X first, then use BC to install Windows. :p Given the fact you need Vanilla or some other means, this may not even be possible. (I've never looked into it, let alone try it).

    That will depend on the SATA controller chip, but most have the settings for it. For example, the i7 board I have allows me to specify Legacy, AHCI, or RAID for the ICH10R located in the chipset.

    What board are you running (which Gigabyte model), and how is it setup?

    Yes, but I'd get the array done before making any clones. On the Windows side, you can get 3rd party software. I'm using Acronis True Image 2009 for cloning/backup software, but it has problems with XP. I'm using Vista Ultimate 64, and it's doing fine. But there was a review that indicated XP had problems with it. :(

    Offhand, I'm not sure what to recommend for XP now, unless you can find an older version that does OK with it. :confused:

    Sorry I can't be of more help here. :eek:


    I understand, believe me. College hasn't yet evaporated from memory. ;) Yet. :eek: Maybe because I was actually sober most of the time. :p

    Not bad (I've worked in telecommunications, which was a mixture of copper and fiber optic based networks), though I'm sure there are those who know more than I, especially with something specific like the Airport/Airport Express.
     
  18. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

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    #18
    i could clone another 500GB drive that i have then erase it etc, but it is a WD....could that work?

    haha yea im just messing i know what you meant! i dont think that BC will be supported on a hackintosh system - its not needed anyway!!


    ahh i see.. i am running this cheap GB mobo here. apparently it has a "iTE IT8718 chip" I/O chip, if that helps at all..the manual mentions AHCI a few times, but no compatibility lists are there, it seems to support it though..


    yup of course, i dont need to worry about the cloning OSX because its currently on a different drive anyway! (the slow 40GB one lol) so it wont be touched in anyway. for Windows i might just start again with Vista or something... its probably time to upgrade anyway.

    thats fine :) im sure ill find a solution


    i live 1hr away from uni, and buses stop running to my town at 10pm, so parties are out of the question. i spend 98% of my time sober lol!


    oh excellent! im doing a communication course this sem, learning about the Internet Stack layer (from the top down too ;)). SO interesting.

    thanks for everything.

    i think i might go call Apple about getting my two laptop batteries replaced :) (damn they didnt pick up :()

    OP: any lucky yet??
     
  19. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #19
    It's the same size, so it would definitely work. :D

    Even drives not of equal capacity will work, but the array size will be based off the smallest in the set. So if you have a 750GB and a 1TB, it will be 1.5TB, with 250GB as unused. Paritioning can regain access to it, but it will only operate at single drive performance on the inner most tracks.

    The board's specs say it's an ICH7 (Southbridge). The chip you listed is for the floppy drive. :eek: :p

    Check the firmware, as it should have a listing for Legacy, Enhanced (under IDE), AHCI, and possibly RAID (if it's the ICH7R version).

    From what I've seen using Win7, I'd use that. Currently, the Release Candidate is still available, but only until Aug. 22 IIRC. It seems to run well, and is much easier to install, as it has many of the drivers that have to be loaded separately into Vista.

    It's due out on Oct. 22, 2009, so not long at all. So SKIP Vista at this point. ;)

    I didn't have to use a bus system (it wouldn't have been feasible). For me, it was the major (engineering) & resulting work load. Too much work, too little time, and I didn't want to screw up. :D I've never been much of a drinker anyway. Fun with company, but not so much when at home by myself. :rolleyes: ;) Very little/light drinking happens to be cheaper too. :p So perhaps more vegemite in the cupboard instead. :D

    So long as you're enjoying it, you should learn something. ;) The Top-Down approach is the best way IMO. :)

    NP. :)
     
  20. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

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    #20
    ok awsome, looks like i might be trying this method over the weekend then instead of having to wait to pick up a few extra shifts :D:D

    right. so my idea of joining a 250GB partition (from the 500GB) and a 500GB partition (from the 1TB) would not work as the max size of the partition would be 500GB instead of the 750?


    shows you how much i know about the controllers haha! i just saw "I/O Controller" and thought it would be good enough for you to work with haha, mybad.

    firmware of the mobo? will do when i get home. AFAIK its the standard stuff.


    i already have Win7, i forget the release version but its a tad behind the current one, its very stable but does like to run slow at times. not confident at changing just now.


    buses are pathetic here :( i wouldnt call my major intense, but definately involved. especially since i have taken a marketing subject - its all new and wierd to me. completely different from IT. i dont drink much either, got to be in the mood. vegemite is more expensive then most beers ;) (im a spirit man though, so yea its cheaper).


    i learn something everyday, yesterday i learnt HOW ANNOYING mature age students are (no offense to them, they just think they know everything - the ones in my classes do anyway), pisses me off.

    you prefer top-down? it seems alright, the Application layer isnt very interesting, i much rather the Link layer and Network layer :)
     
  21. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #21
    I'm having some serious problems with the disk program. I was not offered to install a striped volume until I deleted the Bootcamp partition and created unallocated space. Unfortunately the creation of a striped volume cannot be restricted to the free spaces. I actually killed my striped OS X volume that way. The HDD reverted to MBR partitiontable. It is creating hefty work. I'm not even sure it can be done. I wish I had partition magic. This job would be done in minutes. Right now I'm preparing the HDDs from scratch again.

    Has anybody successfully striped an array in Windows on a Mac Pro involving multiple partitions with GUID?
     
  22. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #22
    :cool: But picking up extra shifts when possible isn't a bad idea either. The cash can come in handy somewhere down the road. ;)

    Correct.

    Total Capacity (stripe set) = smallest partition size * n drives.

    No big deal. :)

    Those I listed are usually on the "menu" as it where. ;)


    There was a difference IMO. The final version isn't a problem from what I've been able to tell. Though driver issues are always a possibility, and can make the fastest system become a slug in the arctic circle. :p

    Keep in mind, many of those older students have both professional (work experience) and life experience you don't. That doesn't mean what they're spouting is accurate by any means. You can always find those that are full of ****. :p But it tends to be more on track in my experience. From my POV, those just out of college tend not to know nearly as much as they think they do. Arrogance makes this worse (is this the aspect you're having an issue with?). My experience is a "bubble" though, as it's rather specific, and there's a massive amount of information to be learned. Even more on the job than there was taught in uni courses. Though I thought it was easier due to hands on methodology, rather than just a book (theory).

    Generally speaking (i.e. top down programming, circuit design,...), yes as a way to understand the relationships (less confusing logically). This way did seem to make a lot of sense in engineering course work. But I spend most of my time in system level areas. ;) That's not to say I haven't had issues with it. Too much time in the top layers, and understanding of the lower layers tends to be lost (programming for example). It can get messy IMO. :rolleyes: :(
     
  23. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #23
    Hmm.... Have you tried setting the partition type to GPT under windows?

    At this point, it's not recognizing partitions made under OS X. There might be a couple of tools that might help, but I'm not sure (I can't remember if it supports HFS/+ or not), but take a look at Acronis True Image 2009, or Acronis Disk Director. The later may be the better choice.

    I figured this was going to be difficult, but it's worst than I expected. :(
     
  24. gugucom thread starter macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    #24
    I'm attaching screen shots. Sorry this is all set to German. But you see that there is no option of striping. Bootcamp1 and Bootcamp2 are my empty new partitions and Bootcamp is my working Windows drive.

    Edit: In the EFI partition of all three drives it says GPT protective partition. I do not expect Acronis to work on a Mac. It requires some fancy footwork in BIOS.
     

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  25. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

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    Singapore
    #25
    i know i know, i get this from my dad all the time! i have been trying to start a computer repair business to get out of slaving away (i wont get started, i could bitch all day), but dont have enough time. had a 'semi-pro' DVD production lined up for the weekend too, but the guy pulled out.. damn money haha

    it flashes fast :p ill have to pause it lol! will report it back later.

    ahh ok, i only ever tried it VM style, it was noticably better then vista (it didnt BSOD when i installed it :rolleyes: ;)) so im giving it a very good chance. ill have to 'aquire' it somehow lol, hopefully its a small download.


    im not bagging all of them at all, not in the slightest. only the "loud-mouth-know-it-alls" that actually dont know it all..

    e.g. one guy called himself a "programmer", first tute for programming we got into he couldnt find the "start" button (not that it has to do with programming, just the fact that he couldnt possibly be a programmer when he has no idea about the computer at all).

    dont get me wrong most mature age students really do know what they are talking about! one guy asked a REALLY good question in my communication class (where the bottlenecks are in the internet, especially when there is high volume traffic at peak hours). the lecture didnt understand though (not properly speaking english).. but you know.

    they do have lots of other experience, life experience is very hard to come by and i wish that i could get more so that i could interact with people better especially in a business sense..

    some people are really institutionalised, and others are generally just good at what they do and can really make a contribution to my understandings. the out of college people you say would indeed think they know it all, but as i know, they dont.

    yes being an engineer would be rather specific, but its a very important field (what exactly are you in?). i do not consider myself arrogant at all, i know NOTHING.. i come on here and am blown away by what you guys know, and you arent even in the field! i have been fortunate enough to do work experience with a number of companies and its very daunting. when i go into a place i dont know i tend to be quiet and take everything in (being a drummer i am good at learning quickly, if that makes sense). i can learn processes quickly and repeat them easily...but my knowledge at this point is basically nothing compared to others.


    for this Internet Stack, i am annoyed about it, i dont care about the higher levels that much.. getting into networking all i care about is the Link/Network layer (for in depth knowledge). of course i will need to know about the others, but not THAT much.. (unless my naive uni-boy attitude is leading me in the wrong direction here lol). i love learning but :p :)
     

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