Multitouch on the MacBook Air and Beyond

[TBi]

It can send the movement of two fingers independently.

It doesn't. All it does is send data of where something is on it at the time it is polled.

 

[Thomas Harte]

That is not true though. If you split your fingers into a peace sign and place ach finger ont he side of the trackpad, far away and not in alignment and move them. The page scrolls. If it could only track one objects movements, then splitting up the finger would only move the mouse since whichever object is picked, its one finger.

But no it sees both and even moving them out of synch produces a scroll. The trackpad is tracking both objects movement and size. BOTH! Try to put two fingers one one side and a third apart from it. And it wont scroll. Thus it knows the size of both objects on the trackpad and their movements.

But wait, something might disprove my line of thought. Hold one finger steady and move the other, and it still scrolls. So I guess it can see both objects but can only track one of them's movements. Unless they programmed it to scroll when there is two.

One more test. 2d scrollings. Enabble 360 degrees on my tracpad goin into preview. I start my two finger sperate. My left one is going to move to the right. My right one is going to move down. Thus if it can only track one movement, the area will only scroll in one direction down or right. But wait, its scrolls in both directions. Two fingers. Each with different movements, and it understands both independently.

None of those tests would disprove the possibility that your particular touchpad (and there are many different implementations, as discussed in this thread) effectively averages the position of your two fingers through some physical artefact of its detection system, or prove that it is always capable of reliably tracking two independent objects regardless of their position in relation to one another.

 

[Chef Medeski]

Everything you said is right except for one thing. The trackpad doesn't see movement. All it sees is where something is on it.

Basically the computer asks the trackpad for info a few thousand times a second. The trackpad responds by saying

"I've something at this point (X1,Y1)"
then says
"I've something at this point (X2,Y2)"
and then
"I've something at this point (X3,Y3)"
and on and on

Or for two fingers

"I've something at this point (X1,Y1) AND (W1,Z1)"
then says
"I've something at this point (X2,Y2) AND (W2,Z2)"
and then
"I've something at this point (X3,Y3)"**
and on and on

** assuming here you lifted the second finger.

It's the software which translates this into motion.

Yeah I was unsure if it detected movement or location. But clearly now that I have read the whole thread, it detects location and from that can determine motion.

 

[twoodcc]

looking forward to more features of multitouch on macs

 

[Chef Medeski]

It doesn't. All it does is send data of where something is on it at the time it is polled.

Excuse me. Not the trackpad the software does. Cause clearly two objectts indpendent movements can be analyzed and determined through the tracpad, CPU, and software. So lets just say the computer can determine it. Cause it acts upon the action.

 

[phillystax]

Powerbook G4 Trackpad - My 2 cents

I have a Powerbook G4 1.67GHz.

My PB can do the 2-button scroll but I doubt that it's sensitive enough or exact enough, though I haven't touched a MBA yet, to do the gestures thing.

Honestly, I would feel more agitated if my PB could "sort of" do the gestures thing but not really do it well.

So I'm going to hold off even longer, my PB is over 2 years old and still kickin', and get a MBP when it has the new gestures pad.

I also see the MBP and MB eventually following the same form-factor as the MBA. It will have to be a little thicker to get all the goodness in but it will still look stunning.

PhillyStax

 

[sjamaan]

None of those tests would (...) prove that it is always capable of reliably tracking two independent objects regardless of their position in relation to one another.

My point exactly.
Here's something intresting I found out yesterday. While playing Vortex (the iPod game), I found a setting called "control: finger position". This means that the bat (FYI, Vortex is an Araknoid clone with circular design) follows exactly your position on the click wheel. If you put your finger somewhere on the click wheel, the bat in the game flies to the corresponding position on the arena edge.
So the iPod's click wheel is able to track absolute positions (meaning it's able to track relative positions as well, if it was a multitouch device).
As I said before, if the touchpad of our MacBooks can track absolute (or just relative) positions, the multitouch capability is a software issue.

 

[meagain]

My question/concern is - does it 'really' only work on Apple apps?

Would Firefox work or no?

 

[TBi]

Excuse me. Not the trackpad the software does. Cause clearly two objectts indpendent movements can be analyzed and determined through the tracpad, CPU, and software. So lets just say the computer can determine it. Cause it acts upon the action.

Yeah I was unsure if it detected movement or location. But clearly now that I have read the whole thread, it detects location and from that can determine motion.

Exactly it acts on location. Everything else you said is right from the perspective of software though. There doesn't seem to be any physical limitation to stop a MB or MBP from being capable of doing that the MBA does.

 

[radio893fm]

Who cares... give me the two button mouse Apple.

 

[forafireescape]

Thanks Arn for teaching me about 'Screen Zoom'!

I second! I didn't know about it either, before now

 

[Manatee]

I wonder if many people will have trouble with "accidental gestures"? (Please, stop punching me -- I swear it was my index finger!)

On my Toshiba Portege tablet, I finally got frustrated and shut off the simple gesture recognition it supported. I was constantly scrolling through lists and clicking on things when all I meant to do was mover the cursor. It was especially maddening when trying to open something from the Windows Start menu, or do something from a left-click popup menu on the screen. I felt like the machine was possessed by demons -- like it was out of my control.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing with a MacBook Air at the Apple Store when I get back from my ski trip in early February.

BTW, I wonder what will happen at other retailers that now sell Apple -- like Best Buy. I wonder if all the low-income immigrants (NTTAWWT) who inhabit those places will swarm the MacBook Air and shred it, or if it'll be completely off their radar screens? After all, it's not like suddently having a demo Wii in the store.

 

[forafireescape]

My question/concern is - does it 'really' only work on Apple apps?

Would Firefox work or no?

It works on all the apps that I used. I use Camino as my browser and it works.

 

[chadder007]

They could be, as the current trackpad can tell the difference between one, two and three fingers (try it). But knowing Apple they wont allow us to use it, and will instead force us to buy a new laptop for something our current ones can do.

Sigh.

It should be capable. It should only be a piece of software that has to be updated.

 

[jameskohn]

"Impending MacBook Pro update" ???? It should only happen (soon)!

 

[CADer]

They could be, as the current trackpad can tell the difference between one, two and three fingers (try it). But knowing Apple they wont allow us to use it, and will instead force us to buy a new laptop for something our current ones can do.

Sigh.

You are exactly right!!! I can be done on current Macbooks and Macbook Pros but what would Apple make by doing that - they will not let it come to current track pads only future track pads so that they can make more money and more importantly more market share!

 

[ChrisA]

USB touch pad?

When will they sell a USB touch pad? If Apple dooesn't then some one will will soon. It could replace a mouse on a desktop machine.

Maybe Wacom will make one that works with fingers or a pen. They currently have the best graphic tablets. They not only sense position but pressure, tilt and rotation of the pen tip.

 

[Dreamer2go]

After reading posts, I too think that my MBP is capable of multi-touch gestures.

Coming to to think of it, if I do 3 fingers scrolling, the mouse doesn't move at all....that means the MBP is capable on detecting if 3 fingers are currently touching the pad.
Obviously 1 finger and 2 finger works....

So I do believe that a software update should do the trick.

But Apple is mean.... I'm skeptical that they will release a patch for this....

 

[bmorris]

well i just wish they make a big release soon im tired of waiting.
even tho it wont kill me to wait.

 

[Thomas Harte]

After reading posts, I too think that my MBP is capable of multi-touch gestures.

Coming to to think of it, if I do 3 fingers scrolling, the mouse doesn't move at all....that means the MBP is capable on detecting if 3 fingers are currently touching the pad.
Obviously 1 finger and 2 finger works....

So I do believe that a software update should do the trick.

But Apple is mean.... I'm skeptical that they will release a patch for this....

Some numbered points, to make referencing this post more easy:

1. There is no evidence that the touchpad on a MacBook or MacBook Pro can detect and reliably separate multiple simultaneous presses
2. There is high quality evidence that some types of touchpad cannot detect and reliably separate presses, that evidence being datasheets from the touchpad manufacturers
3. Even if the physical technology used by the MacBook and MacBook Pro can detect and reliably track multiple simultaneous presses, there is no evidence that the firmware that runs the touchpad processes this information in a way that allows it to be passed on to apps
4. Even if the firmware that runs the touchpad does process this information, there is no evidence that there is any physical means to communicate it to the processor
5. If the firmware doesn't track multiple presses but physically could, there is no evidence that lines are in place to allow Apple (or anyone else) to do a firmware upgrade without physically opening the computer

 

[LizKat]

I'd pay $20 for this feature to be on my MBP... No question about it.

I'd pay $20 FOR a macbookpro if that feature were rolled out on it

meanwhile lemme stick to my original purchase order which was for the $3k macbook air with a few pacifiers (the ethernet dongle, the external superdrive)

Someone reminded me on the phone last night that basically I already paid for my fancy MacBook Air by stopping smoking, since when I quit 8 years ago I was doing two packs a day, which would cost me three grand a year nowadays. I quit on MLK day... "free at last" .... only because of a blizzard that wasn't forecast. Now I am grateful.

No wonder I didn't have to hunt around that hard to find three grand to part with when I decided I was going for the MBA. I was always good at extracting money from a budget for something I craved. I can remember buying cigarettes with hits on my rent money, fancy takeout food money, subway fare money, beer money and yeah, software and hardware money too. Otherwise I wouldn't have stuck with the 1400c so long, that's for sure. So now it's switched around and I'm buying hardware with the exotic food and beer and cigarette money, what's not to love.

 

[TBi]

Some numbered points, to make referencing this post more easy:

1. There is no evidence that the touchpad on a MacBook or MacBook Pro can detect and reliably separate multiple simultaneous presses
2. There is high quality evidence that some types of touchpad cannot detect and reliably separate presses, that evidence being datasheets from the touchpad manufacturers
3. Even if the physical technology used by the MacBook and MacBook Pro can detect and reliably track multiple simultaneous presses, there is no evidence that the firmware that runs the touchpad processes this information in a way that allows it to be passed on to apps
4. Even if the firmware that runs the touchpad does process this information, there is no evidence that there is any physical means to communicate it to the processor
5. If the firmware doesn't track multiple presses but physically could, there is no evidence that lines are in place to allow Apple (or anyone else) to do a firmware upgrade without physically opening the computer

You are a very negative person! Think positive! There is no evidence to show the mac can do it but why look at it this way!

Wouldn't it be better to say there is no evidence that it can't! Put a bit of hope back into your life!

Remember the glass is always half full

 

[DukeofAnkh]

so i wonder how long it will be b4 someone cracks this software and the remote disc and makes it available for the mb and the mbp's?

You can already hack this into windows by sharing the root of your DVD/CD drive. I haven't tried it but a friend of mine reports that he does it frequently. However, since the DVD drive doesn't show up in OSX when it's empty, it'd be harder to hack it in to permanently work or work while changing disks, etc. Not sure if you can do it at all, though it did let me add the disk currently in my drive to shared folders, so maybe.

As for the trackpad thing, I am so, so hoping this is in 10.5.2. It would be very cool. Not necessarily useful, but damn, I want it.

 

[tgildred]

I've been using a laptop as my primary computer for quite a few years now, and I have to say that I think I may actually be more productive/comfortable using a trackpad than a mouse at this point. Perhaps especially with these new gesture inputs. I'm constantly finding the mouse to be clunky, and less accurate than just pointing and moving my finger around. I would be ecstatic if Apple, or anyone, released a really good, large USB trackpad (similar to a Wacom tablet, minus the pen).

I know I'm probably in the minority with the trackpad preference though. To each his own, I guess...

 

[tcoleman]

When will they sell a USB touch pad? If Apple dooesn't then some one will will soon. It could replace a mouse on a desktop machine.

Maybe Wacom will make one that works with fingers or a pen. They currently have the best graphic tablets. They not only sense position but pressure, tilt and rotation of the pen tip.

USB touch pads already exist. Google knows.

I wouldn't want one myself, because I find mice more comfortable to use. I understand that's not for everyone, but I think that a lot of people would agree with me.