My Crazy Sawtooth(Now Gigabit Ethernet) Project

[bunnspecial]

In all honesty, I didn't do as much homework as I should have and just assumed that the older hardware would be better suited to this project.

With that said, we can debate DA vs. GigE to the end of the day, but I do feel like my particular GigE runs the later versions of OS X better. The memory bus is slower, but that is somewhat compensated for by the fact that it can hold 2gb of RAM vs. 1.5gb in the DA. More importantly, though, when I started this project I had three DAs, all of which had a single 533mhz processor. My one GigE is a dual 500mhz, which again gives a fair advantage in 10.4 and 10.5.

Dual processor DAs exist, but in my experience they are quite uncommon. I do have a single 667mhz(I think) DA, but that's the best I have.

 

[redheeler]

Thanks. It'll be a tough decision for me, as my Gigabit and DA are much closer in terms of performance (dual 450 MHz vs single 733 MHz).

 

[redheeler]

Sorry-got caught up with teaching(summer classes move at 100 mph) and haven't had time for much of anything computer related. The GigE in question does currently have a 4Ti installed, so if it will work with that a 4MX should work. As I said, though, I'll need to play around with what works and what doesn't(the unfortunate fact of this computer is that-even though every version of OS X is installed-I often have to tinker with hardware configurations to optimize each version).

Burned a disk with the Public Beta installer and tried to boot on the 4MX. No go. Booting on a Rage 128 Pro now, seems to be working fine.

 

[bunnspecial]

Thanks for the info on that.

For at least a decent general purpose GPU, try a 2MX. To my knowledge, it will work with everything including PB(I think it was in my GigE when installed). Performance under Leopard is pretty mediocre, but turn off the eye candy and it will at least be passable.

Or, alternatively, just live with the reality of swapping out GPUs depending on what OS you're going to boot. I really wish that a 4Ti would work with everything(it's what i have in the computer now).

 

[redheeler]

So far I haven't been able to install the Public Beta on the SSD, the installer keeps failing. I'll have to try and install it on an external FireWire HDD.

Thanks for the info on that.

For at least a decent general purpose GPU, try a 2MX. To my knowledge, it will work with everything including PB(I think it was in my GigE when installed). Performance under Leopard is pretty mediocre, but turn off the eye candy and it will at least be passable.

Or, alternatively, just live with the reality of swapping out GPUs depending on what OS you're going to boot. I really wish that a 4Ti would work with everything(it's what i have in the computer now).

Thanks for the suggestion, I might have a 2MX in my QuickSilver. I got my first taste of Leopard on a Rage 128 (I had wondered how it performs for a while), and it's not an experience I want to relive.

Since you already have PB installed, have you tried to boot it on the 4Ti?

 

[bunnspecial]

Since you already have PB installed, have you tried to boot it on the 4Ti?

It hangs at the "Happy Mac" on the 4Ti. I don't think the 4Ti works until 10.2.something, or maybe a late revision of 10.1.

Leopard on the Rage 128 improves a LOT if you turn off as much eye candy as you possibly can, but it's still really a poor card for Leopard.

(waiting for Erik to come along and mention running Leopard on a Rage 128 with 300 and some MB of RAM ).

 

[LightBulbFun]

one thing that Does not help with the Rage 128 is Leopard does not include any Kexts aka drivers for it so its extra slow. if you install the kexts from 10.4.11 then it speeds up a bit.

 

[redheeler]

Public Beta isn't playing nice with my FireWire HDD (or optical drive), and still refuses to install on the SSD. I have an actual retail copy of it on the way, so when that arrives I'll try to install it on one of my Sawtooths and image it over to the GigE (which as of yesterday is maxed-out at 2 GB RAM).

one thing that Does not help with the Rage 128 is Leopard does not include any Kexts aka drivers for it so its extra slow. if you install the kexts from 10.4.11 then it speeds up a bit.

Thanks for the advice, but I may just do a GPU swap whenever I boot into Leopard. I did think that performance is very poor compared to Tiger, and that's probably why.

 

[bunnspecial]

A GPU swap is best, but as I said a 2MX is tolerable under Leopard and works fine with PB.

Try putting a single 128mb stick(Apple OEM if you have one) in the GigE, unplugging your FW HDD, and then installing onto a single platter drive in the computer. I know that's a lot of "backtracking" but the minimal possible configuration really is your best bet. I think it took me two or three tries to get it right.

BTW, it actually installed on my Yikes! on the first try. It was pretty much bone stock at the time with the factory HDD and a Rage 128(although it also still works fine with the R7000). It did have some upgraded RAM.

Also, I ended up using a B&W for the DPs and Rhapsody. Overall, it was fewer headaches to get them to work, and the extra performance of a G4 doesn't really help them.

 

[redheeler]

Try putting a single 128mb stick(Apple OEM if you have one) in the GigE, unplugging your FW HDD, and then installing onto a single platter drive in the computer. I know that's a lot of "backtracking" but the minimal possible configuration really is your best bet. I think it took me two or three tries to get it right.

BTW, it actually installed on my Yikes! on the first try. It was pretty much bone stock at the time with the factory HDD and a Rage 128(although it also still works fine with the R7000). It did have some upgraded RAM.

Does the optical drive matter? My GigE has a 3rd-party upgraded one.

Otherwise, I've done all that except swap the SSD for an HDD (the SSD may very well be the problem). It might just be easier to grab my 500 MHz Sawtooth (completely stock, hard to believe it came out of the factory with 1 GB RAM ), and image it over after the install.

Also, I ended up using a B&W for the DPs and Rhapsody. Overall, it was fewer headaches to get them to work, and the extra performance of a G4 doesn't really help them.

I don't have a G3 B&W, for some reason they seem to be quite hard to find compared to Sawtooth G4s.

 

[redheeler]

I installed Public Beta on the Sawtooth and imaged it over using a G5's IDE connection and the GigE in TDM. The GeForce 4MX gets stuck on the happy Mac, so I found a GeForce 2MX and put it in. Boots in a wonky resolution, gets stuck on the blue screen. Put in the Rage 128 Pro and...

Success! Mac OS X Public Beta on a dual 500 MHz G4 with 128 GB SSD and 2 GB RAM (so much RAM that About This Mac won't even show it, apparently).

I'll have to play around with the OS some more. I have already noticed its unfinished nature somewhat, like @bunnspecial said a while back Command-Shift-3/Command-Shift-4 does not work.

 

[bunnspecial]

Congratulations!

And you didn't believe me when I said Command+shift+3 didn't work . I don't think it worked until 10.1 or 10.2.

I have always liked the Apple in the middle of the menu bar, although it's disappointing that it doesn't actually do anything like in preceding and subsequent versions of the Mac OS.

What's really alarming to me is that they charged you $30 for this half-baked piece of junk, then wanted another $100 on top of it($130 without PB) to get 10.0-an OS that admittedly isn't much better.

I would like to find a copy of bomb.app that Steve showed off at WWDC in PB. My experience with stability has been somewhat lacking in this version, so I'd be curious as to how it would run.

One other thing-if you have multiple OSs and want t boot into PB, don't forget to hit the PMU reset!

 

[redheeler]

Congratulations!

Thanks. It wasn't nearly as easy as I had previously thought

And you didn't believe me when I said Command+shift+3 didn't work . I don't think it worked until 10.1 or 10.2.

You're right, when I tried in 10.0 it didn't work as well. Grab.app has worked fine for me though in both versions.

I have always liked the Apple in the middle of the menu bar, although it's disappointing that it doesn't actually do anything like in preceding and subsequent versions of the Mac OS.

I'm glad it was moved back to the proper place on the left. The center feels like an odd place for it, which I'm sure was true for Mac OS 9 users of the time as well. Also, what happens if an application with a lot of menus needs that space?

What's really alarming to me is that they charged you $30 for this half-baked piece of junk, then wanted another $100 on top of it($130 without PB) to get 10.0-an OS that admittedly isn't much better.

They did subtract the price of the Public Beta from 10.0, so if you had bought it you would have essentially gotten an early beta for free. 10.1 was also heavily discounted for users of 10.0, so Apple knew those early versions of OS X weren't quite completed yet.

One other thing-if you have multiple OSs and want t boot into PB, don't forget to hit the PMU reset!

I never did a PMU reset before booting into Public Beta.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Congratulations!
I would like to find a copy of bomb.app that Steve showed off at WWDC in PB. My experience with stability has been somewhat lacking in this version, so I'd be curious as to how it would run.

You asked and you shall receive

 

[bunnspecial]

You asked and you shall receive

Thanks!

 

[bunnspecial]

You asked and you shall receive

I didn't have a computer running an older version of OS X set up, but I was playing with my Mac Pro this evening(still trying to install Mavericks...)

In any case, I was running Snow Leopard on the Mac Pro. Just for the heck of it, I ran bomb.app and it worked(or should I say didn't work) perfectly!

It's out after Snow Leopard, but at least works well there. It also crashes a lot faster than the Macworld demo that Steve did(which I'm guessing was on a Sawtooth or GigE without checking time frames).

 

[redheeler]

You asked and you shall receive

Won't open at all on the Public Beta. Probably for the best

 

[chrisnova777]

Just a word of warning From experience a 7455 CPU upgrade in a sawtooth prevents OS X DPs from booting they hang at the BootX loading part (OS X public beta will still boot but reports the CPU as a G3 LOL) and that some GPU upgrades can prevent them from booting as well So I Suggest you stick with the stock Rage 128 or something

hmm old thread i know, but i have to clarify what hes said here, im pretty sure ive experienced exactly that in my B+W G3 450Mhz... so i think the poster is confused and that actually applies to the PCI macs (yosemite/yikes!) not AGP (Sawtooth) ive never experienced a problem booting..

but then again it may have been in reference to booting the restore cd version of 8.6 which is tweaked to run on the stock components lightning quick...... i had to replace my gfx card in my sawtooth the original AGP rage 128 pro to get into os8.6 properly but not 9.22

 

[Cox Orange]

Just a word of warning From experience a 7455 CPU upgrade in a sawtooth prevents OS X DPs from booting they hang at the BootX loading part (OS X public beta will still boot but reports the CPU as a G3 LOL) and that some GPU upgrades can prevent them from booting as well So I Suggest you stick with the stock Rage 128 or something

As in "Sawtooths that came from stock with a Dual Processor, i.e. the Dual 450MHz and Dual 500MHz"? - or does DP refer to something different? I understand that statement regarding 7455 Upgrades only refers to, when one of these DP Sawtooths is running a public beta, right?

 

[bunnspecial]

hmm old thread i know, but i have to clarify what hes said here, im pretty sure ive experienced exactly that in my B+W G3 450Mhz... so i think the poster is confused and that actually applies to the PCI macs (yosemite/yikes!) not AGP (Sawtooth) ive never experienced a problem booting..

but then again it may have been in reference to booting the restore cd version of 8.6 which is tweaked to run on the stock components lightning quick...... i had to replace my gfx card in my sawtooth the original AGP rage 128 pro to get into os8.6 properly but not 9.22

I don't follow.

What he is saying is that if you are using a processor upgrade based on a 7455 processor, it will not boot the developer preview versions of OS X. This also applies to 7447 and 7448 upgrades that tweak the firmware so that the CPU reports as a 7455.

7450-series CPUs did not appear in the PM G4 line until the Digital Audio. They WILL NOT work in OS 8.6.

By the way, if you have one of the scarce 7450-series ZIF CPUs, I expect that they also will not work in 8.6, although I haven't tested(my only one is in a computer running 9.2.2 and 10.4.11).

 

[redheeler]

@bunnspecial, Have you ever managed to boot Mac OS X Public Beta on a Digital Audio G4 or is the Gigabit Ethernet the latest it will run on? I recall trying without success.

 

[bunnspecial]

I haven't tried, but considering that it shipped with 9.1 and during the PB period I'm going to say yes.

I'll try this evening if I can-lord knows I have enough DAs kicking around.