My Parents Hate Apple

[D4F]

Here is a simple argument, as far as I am concerned.

I own a 2003 Powerbook G4. Cost $2200. 5 years old. Looks like new. Had Jaguar preinstalled when bought, but now runs Leopard. All the upgrades, Jaguar->Panther->Tiger->Leopard went smoothly, without a hitch, simply by popping in a disk and pressing a button. Works smoothly. Does everything one needs from a computer in 2008.

I also own a 2003 Thinkpad T30 (made when it was still IBM, not lenovo!). Cost $2200. 5 years old. Barely works. Upgrading from Windows 2000 to XP was a mess. Had to spend hours just to reinstall the necessary software. Upgrading to Vista is out of question. The screen has almost separated from the body. Every once in a while spontaneously switches off. Very slow. Impossible to use.

Which one was a better investment? Decide for yourself.

What is the max memory the 2003 G4 can have?

 

[theyellowdart]

It does?? Strange as it never did for me and I liked to play WoW/SWG when I traveled..

The current macbook with the X3100 does. I've had zero issues with playing WoW on high settings, in raids, you name it.

 

[MacLadybug]

I still have my Dell laptop...

I just used it yesterday for the first time in awhile. Had to do some junk I can only due on a PC. My Dell is spec'd out similar to my Macbook, but EVERYTIME I pull it out it's the same thing. Slowww moving, click here, double click there, and then Freeze... restart computer... wait what seems like forever for it to boot up... freeze... control-alt-delete... Augh!!!

Love my Mac and won't go back!

 

[grym]

What is the max memory the 2003 G4 can have?

1GB. That's what I have.

 

[mosx]

Ok, now you are really either misunderstanding, choose not to care, or are made about my facts. Sorry that you can't agree on things that can be proven.

No, you just really don't know what you're talking about. The comments you made in prior posts and then in other posts after this one talking to other people make that VERY clear. I mean, look at the ridiculous argument you got in about the GeForce 8400M GS being online "slightly" better than the X3100 in the MacBook.

Here is some proof you either disregard or I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: you just didnt see it. I can even do benchmarks, as I have before and post my results. The one benchmark that fails to not disappoint, is that Vista takes longer to boot up than XP. I don't know how else I can explain this to you. I have been using Vista since every beta released. Now where do you pull out of my posts that I have not used Vista? You are sadly mistaken and need to get your facts straight. To remind you as well, I never said Vista is completely terrible. I said it's certainly not way better than XP like you claim. Its better at some things, worse at others. By anyones definition, this would not indicate it is leeps and bounds better.

Good job posting links from last year and using pre-release software from almost the beginning of this year, software that was changed before it was released to the public.

Not only that, but both links clearly indicate that Vista was not on a well used system but freshly installed. Which, again, is not as fast as a Vista system that has been used and "learned" your habits.

And, actually, Vista is faster to boot that XP. XP on all of my systems with all drives installed has taken about 1:15 to boot. Vista takes about 55 seconds to boot, Leopard takes about 33 seconds to boot.

And, again, your posts make it clear you have no experience with what you claim to have experience with. And, again, your later posts after this one (like the GeForce argument) prove you really just flat out do not know what you are talking about.

Ok and I have had some that are not. Why are you arguing this I really dont understand.

Showing that user-replaceable is better than Apple's design. Being able to loosen a screw and pull the drive out with a slight tug is better for replacing dead optical drives than having to send the system in for repair and be without it for a minimum of 3 days.

You've heard? Ok well I've seen this not to be true. I guess first hand experience doesn't count anymore apparently.

Well, considering the fact that I'm on my second MacBook due to a botched repair of a bad optical drive.......................

As you should know, when a hard drive has software installed on it, Its not installed "in order" from beginning to end. For example, XP could have installed most of the OS at the beginning, while OS X could have installed it towards the middle or end. It works based off of a page table and virtual memory space using such as modified algorithms as best-fit, worst-fit, first-fit, etc.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my problems. I've had failing hard drives before and a random lockup that cannot be repeated in any way shape or form is not the sign of a bad hard drive. Especially not when the hard drive passes all testing and the hardware itself passes Apple's "Hardware Diagnostics"

Personal attacking is not going to do anything for you, nor does it have any grounds for validity. But go ahead, it doesn't hurt my feelings nor do I care. I can fully explain myself and talk, in detail, about every statement I have made. Obviously, you don't understand what I'm talking about.

Theres a difference between personal attacks and speaking the truth. I was speaking the truth.

You're the one here with the obvious lack of knowledge and experience. You've made it very clear that even someone who has just gotten into "computers" and built their first system would know you don't have any experience with what you claim to have. And, I hate to repeat myself, but your later comments prove, again, that you don't know what you're talking about.

I've yet to see a macbook pro warp or dent.

Then you apparently do not read these forums or Apple's own.

I manage a couple laptop carts full of these spec'd at the 2.33ghz Merom models used by 15-18 year olds.

Sure you do. Anybody can say anything on the internet. I can say I'm a millionaire. Doesn't make it true.

I'm not saying this doesnt exist but what you need to realize is that just because there is a problem with something you have had or read, does not mean that its the terrible product and all are bad.

Not all will bend or warp, but there is the fact that MacBooks and MBPs get ridiculously hot and THAT makes them bad products. Theres also the fact that they are lacking many hardware features that are standard on systems costing well less than half as much and that too makes them bad products.

You cleary didn't understand my explanation of how 64-bit works. I never said it uses more memory at startup either, twisting my words here.

No, its just that you don't know what you're talking about, so when someone proves you wrong you go and say this

Like I said, you can do nearly everything on a Mac that you can do on a PC, not 100%. If you need that feature, then why are you arguing? That would take a one sentence post here.

Just proving that Macs can't do everything PCs can. And to do nearly everything PCs can, you still need to have Windows installed on it, which pretty much throws all reasoning for getting a Mac in the first place out the window.

Why buy a Mac if you still need Windows to get full functionality out of your hardware?

Just as there is no reason for a laptop to be 2 inches thick and weigh 10 pounds.

My HP that cost $500 less with dedicated graphics, faster chipset, equal CPU, bigger HDD, similar real world battery life, bigger screen, memory card reader, fingerprint reader, expresscard slot (full size!), 3 USB, firewire, VGA, HDMI, S-Video, dial-up, gigabit ethernet, etc. weighs only 1 pound more than the MacBook and is 1.75" thick at its thickest point. I'll take that extra 3/4" because it gives the system a proper cooling system. Under load, my MacBook CPU can get as high as 88c on a warm night. The highest under load my HP has gotten was 61c for the CPU and 64c for the GPU. Thats a 2.16GHz C2D in the MacBook (Merom, Napa platform) and 2GHz C2D in the HP (Merom, Santa Rosa platform) and GeForce 8400M GS.

In my experience, PC's use some poor quality components. For example, Dells use a terrible quality power supply in numerous models of their desktops. HP does the same. HiprSecurity updates are free on a Mac also. What's your point?

Not to mention the fact that Apple uses poor quality power supplies for their notebooks too. Just look at all of the people at their online store that have given MagSafe bad reviews for cord fraying and fire hazards.

A PSU that dies is nowhere near as bad as one that can burn your house down.

My sister has a Compaq desktop that she got during Black Friday last year for $399 including monitor and printer. It has an Asus chipset, Lite-on optical drive, WD HDD, but I forget the maker of the PSU. Basically, it has all of the same components an enthusiast would buy to build their own computer.

Please, please find me a laptop that will give a user 200% the performance of ANY mac laptop, for half the price.

I'll be waiting patiently.

When it comes to gaming, thats not hard at all. You can find 17" Windows notebooks with the GeForce 8800M GTS for around $1300 and less.

And that gives 200% the performance? First of all, the processor gives neglible performance gains to the macbook. The video card is by far much better than the integrated graphics in the macbook, and not much better than the 8600GT 256 in the macbook pro. Also the memory is not dual channel. Dual channel requires identical sticks of memory.

Losing dual-channel has almost no real-world impact on performance.

The 8600M GT is a previous generation card now and it was only a mid-range card to begin with.

Also, this dell you spec'd out isnt even a 13.3 in screen

This is a BS argument, just like the rest.

People only buy the MacBook because it is the only Apple notebook they can afford. They're not buying it because of the 13.3" screen, they're buying it because it is the only one in their price range.

Most people would rather have 15.4" and the sales prove it.

If I want a portable laptop, but the 15.4 in is cheaper than the 13.3, I still don't want the 15.4 in screen. If I want a gaming laptop, but the 13.3 in screen is cheaper, I still dont want the 13.3 in screen. Is that so hard to understand? Again why are you comparing apples to oranges. I have posted several times here stating that its about opinion on the operating system, not hardware. I'm not on my "horse." I'm not talking up one product over the other here, made obvious by my other posts. You are not proving anything to me. Your statement was false. Plain and simple.

The MacBook is hardly more portable than average 15.4" systems. The average 15.4" computer these days weighs around 5.8lbs. The MacBook is just slightly over 5lbs. The dimensions aren't much different either. My MacBook is only a cm or so smaller in each direction, with the obvious exception of thickness. But I'd rather have the thicker wedge shape that has a proper cooling system that doesn't require me to worry about my own fertility while browsing youtube with the system on my lap.

And, again, people don't buy the MacBook because its "small" and has a "small" screen, they buy it because it is the only Mac they can afford. If there was a 15.4" MacBook for $999 with dedicated graphics, 2GB of RAM, 160+GB HDD, DVD writer.. it'd fly off the shelves.

D4F have you owned a MacBook before?

I have a MacBook and I can tell you its definitely half-assed compared to what you can get in a PC for the same price or even $500+ less.

At first I was very happy (it was my first Mac) but after a while all the ohhs and ahhs faded and obvious things hit me as I needed performance and it was nowhere to be found.

Same with me. I was extremely pleased with mine for the first two or so months, despite the couple of freezes and bad optical drives. I was all "I have a Mac!" and happy. Then I saw a 17" notebook with 2GB of RAM, dual-core processor, GeForce Go 7600, DVD writer, etc. for $800. I was pissed. I looked at other hardware and noticed that I could have gotten the same hardware as my Mac, but with a larger screen, for half the price the Mac cost.

The video card is slightly better, some more memory, bigger hard drive, same processor. I don't disagree with that laptop not being a good laptop as I love the 1330 and 1530. But this doesn't make a huge difference in performance. The memory will make some difference, the video card some. In fact, had this came out, for a little cheaper than what you posted, I would have got it instead of the macbook. The problem is, it can't run Mac OS X natively. Thats my only issue with this laptop.

The fact that it doesn't run OS X is an advantage. Vista does everything OS X does, plus you can play your games, watch HD movies, do both of those on an HDTV with no hassles (since OS X can't properly handle external displays), not to mention you get a wide variety of online video services (netflix and unbox?) and a large selection of music stores, etc. that you just can't get on OS X.

It's also absolutely hilarious that you think the GeForce 8400M GS is only a little bit better. In the real world, the X3100 is slower than the GMA 950. I have the GMA 950 in my MacBook and the GeForce 8400M GS in my HP. The difference is night and day. If I want to play Half-Life 2 on my MacBook, I have to take it down to low/medium settings (no reflections) and 640x480. If I want to play it on my HP I can turn everything up to the highest and run it at native resolution and its good for 60fps. Half-Life 2 Episode 2 is a virtual slide show on the GMA 950 and X3100, while it runs basically the same (some moments where it drops) on the 8400M GS. My HP can play UT3, Gears of War, GRID, CoD4 all at reasonable settings. Try playing those on any MacBook.

Again. Portability. But lets look at this. The games the show a big difference for a majority are older games. They will show a big difference. Newer games however don't show much of an improvement

As I said, try playing Gears of War, GRID, CoD4, UT3, or even HL2 EP2 on a MacBook. You can on a GeForce 8400M GS equipped system. But not a MacBook. Also, the 8400M GS included in Dell and HP systems has full bitstream decoding for every modern video codec. So they're fully capable of playing blu-ray movies in both a reduced power state and with very low CPU use.

More RAM.. come on lol. it's crucial! Especially that Leopard ain't too 'snappy' with 1GBYa, just not in dual channel

You get better performance by having more RAM than by having a full GB less running in dual channel. If you have the same amount of RAM with unpaired sticks, then you will lose roughly 3% performance.

Again, this portable laptop isn't aimed at playing games.

But every other portable laptop in the same price range, and cheaper, CAN be aimed at playing games and be just as portable as the MacBook.

I own a 2003 Powerbook G4. Cost $2200. 5 years old. Looks like new. Had Jaguar preinstalled when bought, but now runs Leopard. All the upgrades, Jaguar->Panther->Tiger->Leopard went smoothly, without a hitch, simply by popping in a disk and pressing a button. Works smoothly. Does everything one needs from a computer in 2008.

I also own a 2003 Thinkpad T30 (made when it was still IBM, not lenovo!). Cost $2200. 5 years old. Barely works. Upgrading from Windows 2000 to XP was a mess. Had to spend hours just to reinstall the necessary software. Upgrading to Vista is out of question. The screen has almost separated from the body. Every once in a while spontaneously switches off. Very slow. Impossible to use.

First of all, you NEVER upgrade OSes. Never. You always do a fresh install.

Second, I know people with eMachines notebooks from 2003 that are still good as new. They had Athlon 64s running at 2GHz, upgraded to 2GB of RAM, Radeon 9700 128MB GPUs, DVD writers. Their systems are faster and more useable today than any of the PPC based Apple notebooks to be released even at the end of 2005. They're even better at gaming than any of the current MacBooks.

More HD means you can store a lot more stuff for the same $$ spent.

It also means data stored in smaller areas, which means faster access. Which means higher performance

Which does not make it worth the $$ compared to PC systems no matter how you look at it. It does the job sure. But why pay $1300 if you can get same for $699?

Hey, the $579 HP dv5z has better integrated graphics than the MacBook

The current macbook with the X3100 does. I've had zero issues with playing WoW on high settings, in raids, you name it.

Good performance is perceptual. Some people seem to think that 20fps in HL2 on a MacBook at 1280x800 and medium settings is good. While I won't accept any less than 60fps at the highest settings at the same resolution.

 

[iSpoody 1243]

^^^^^^^^
WTF????? you practically wrote a reply to each and every post in this thread


omg that sucks
at least with my parents they get me whatever mac i want, good that they understand the mac ads

p.s. pc suck and so does vista lololol loly lololol pwn !!!!?!!

 

[mosx]

^^^^^^^^
WTF????? you practically wrote a reply to each and every post in this thread


omg that sucks
at least with my parents they get me whatever mac i want, good that they understand the mac ads

p.s. pc suck and so does vista lololol loly lololol pwn !!!!?!!

Okay that was probably the dumbest post on this forum in a very long time.

Must be nice to be so spoiled. I'm glad I wasn't as spoiled as you when I was a kid. You're in for a harsh reality when you grow up.

 

[iSpoody 1243]

Okay that was probably the dumbest post on this forum in a very long time.

Must be nice to be so spoiled. I'm glad I wasn't as spoiled as you when I was a kid. You're in for a harsh reality when you grow up.

lololol i aint a kid
i was in 2001 when i got my first mac
ps i wasn't spoiled lol, they got me any computer i wanted but like hell they would spend over $1500
lol you prob think im a kid cause i through in random lame sh*t into every post i make. lol

 

[theyellowdart]

Originally Posted by mosx
When it comes to gaming, thats not hard at all. You can find 17" Windows notebooks with the GeForce 8800M GTS for around $1300 and less.

Gaming wasn't mentioned, nor would it really be. Most gamers avoid Macs like the plague.

As for the 8800M GTS laptop for around 1300... the only one I can remember being in that price range was the HP (or was it gateway?) that best buy was offering. Unfortunately best buys site is down for me right now so I can't see if they are still offering it or not. The problem with that laptop is, while yes... in gaming you may see a large increase, the processor on it was very weak, and the MBP would be much faster than it at other tasks, such as encoding.

Unless you have another $1300 laptop with an 8800M GTS in it.

The fact that it doesn't run OS X is an advantage. Vista does everything OS X does...

Seriously now... You're on a Mac message board, if you're going to say idiotic things like this just go somewhere else, otherwise you'll just be seen as a troll.

Allowing users the ability to run an OS they like (doesn't matter if YOU like it or not) is a good thing, and it gives them choice. if they wanted to run Vista so bad, they can with bootcamp. Not to mention vista does NOT do everything OS X does. (You know, that entire, run OS X applications thing... tid bit of a snag).

Sure you do. Anybody can say anything on the internet. I can say I'm a millionaire. Doesn't make it true.

Your attitude and knowledge isn't that of a millionaire though... His attitude and knowledge sounds like someone who indeed does administer what he says.

Now.. can we please get back on topic? Or at the very least let this topic die?

 

[D4F]

Your attitude and knowledge isn't that of a millionaire though... His attitude and knowledge sounds like someone who indeed does administer what he says.

So you when somebody posts stuff that are full of **** like 8400 is only slightly better than the intel crap you call that 'has knowledge'??

rofl no wonder Apple is making millions with so many dumb people around.

 

[iShater]

Geez, this thread is still alive? with all this trolling taking place?

 

[theyellowdart]

So you when somebody posts stuff that are full of **** like 8400 is only slightly better than the intel crap you call that 'has knowledge'??

rofl no wonder Apple is making millions with so many dumb people around.

Please, you can stop with the childish remarks at anytime... it makes you come off like a little child.

Administering a few Apple Laptop carts, and talking about his experience with them, and his knowledge of how they work and such is where his attitude and knowledge show (atleast to me... since I do similar work and have had the same type of experiences he has). An incorrect comment about the 8400M being slightly better than the X3100 doesn't really mean a lot to me, other than the fact that he wasn't up to date on current benchmarks of those cards.

 

[juswest]

Okay that was probably the dumbest post on this forum in a very long time.

Must be nice to be so spoiled. I'm glad I wasn't as spoiled as you when I was a kid. You're in for a harsh reality when you grow up.

Why exactly do you have a Macbook since you have so many issues with it. Wouldn't it be best to sell it since it's so bad. I disliked the first college I went to I transferred. I didnt try and attend my old and new school. If there's so many issues with the hardware just keep the better computer and be done with it. You're just about as bad as people who blindly hype any company's products.

 

[grym]

First of all, you NEVER upgrade OSes. Never. You always do a fresh install.

Nonsense. Written by somewhat who spends his time continuously installing and reinstalling various software. I use computers to do productive work, not to spend my life installing software and debugging things.

I certify that upgrading mac OSes is a breeze. The mac does it itself, no need to intervene. No data is lost. No software stops working. It is the same mac as before, only with newer OS.

Upgrading PCs is a mess. OK, perhaps one needs to do a fresh install for them. But then why wouldn't Bill Gates spend his time doing fresh install on my PC. My time is valuable, more valuable than his, to be waisted on this nonsense. After all, he doesn't do anything these days besides thinking of ways to spend his money. Whereas he should have thought of ways to make PCs as good as Macs. Or fix my PC for free.

Second, I know people with eMachines notebooks from 2003 that are still good as new. They had Athlon 64s running at 2GHz, upgraded to 2GB of RAM, Radeon 9700 128MB GPUs, DVD writers. Their systems are faster and more useable today than any of the PPC based Apple notebooks to be released even at the end of 2005. They're even better at gaming than any of the current MacBooks.

These guys are lucky. My PCs have a lifespan of at most 3 years. After which, they are as good as garbarge.

 

[patrickmacrumor]

Guys, please stop this Mac vs PC war of words. You are not helping the OP. He just wanted to convince his parents. We can tell him why he should listen to his parents, or why he should try harder to convince them, but please do it in a objective way.

And by the way, the OP does not seem to care if the MacBook is limited nor more expensive compared to laptops from the PC world. His only problem is he does not have enough money to buy a MacBook on his own, and that his parents don't want to buy one for him, but rather a PC laptop.

By keeping this war of words going, we are moving away from the purpose of the OP original post, and create pages and pages of comments for nothing. I try staying away from Mac vs. PC posts because it's irrelevant. I own both Windows PC and a MacBook, I don't give a d*** about those who think I should not have spent money on a MacBook, just as I don't give a d*** about those who think Windows is crap. Each has its pros and cons, that's why I have both. Some people buy expensive cars, some buy cheaper cars. That does not mean that the cheap car is lesser car than the expensive one.

 

[zsft]

And by the way, the OP does not seem to care if the MacBook is limited nor more expensive compared to laptops from the PC world. His only problem is he does not have enough money to buy a MacBook on his own, and that his parents don't want to buy one for him, but rather a PC laptop.

The OP doesn't say it, but the fact that he cannot buy it himself implies money is a problem. If money is not a problem why would the parents care? They want to be sure their precious money is well spent. The scarcity problem is always present my friend.

Some people buy expensive cars, some buy cheaper cars. That does not mean that the cheap car is lesser car than the expensive one.

Depends how much you push it. If you push it hard, most of the time the expensive one is more of a car lol...or say, more of "your type of a car". But please stop the car metaphor now and forever. A Merc is a car as a Toyota is a car, a PC is a computer as Apple is a computer. It's more like manual versus automatic transmission versus sequential shift, FWD versus RWD versus AWD. I prefer stick and AWD And a boxer.

That said, it is in fact crucial that the OP pick a side, Vista or OSX. Because a Dell and an Apple is just paperweight all the same without the OS.

 

[patrickmacrumor]

If money is not a problem why would the parents care? They want to be sure their precious money is well spent. The scarcity problem is always present my friend.

I know that, and please don't assume I don't know what the "scarcity problem" is. I've taken more than a few Economics courses.

I also gave my points why I think the OP parents' want the OP to get a Dell. But in case you missed it because it got lost in the war of words (or if you did not take the time to read all the comments), here it is: "Your parents are not really against you. They just want what is best for you. They probably feel that a Mac is too much money to put into a computer. You'll understand them once you have your own house, car, and kids and retirement to budget for. And since the computer repairman they know and trust cannot work on the Mac, they don't have peace of mind."

--
Patrick

 

[mosx]

Gaming wasn't mentioned, nor would it really be. Most gamers avoid Macs like the plague.

Because GPUs have other functions these days.

Vista and a modern dedicated GPU will give you better video playback at lower CPU/GPU use and MUCH lower temperatures than a Mac. Thanks to that, a $599 HP with a $199 external blu-ray drive can play blu-ray movies while no Mac can because both OS X can't do it and because Apple didn't include the necessary firmware for HDCP, so it can't be done under Windows either.

As for the 8800M GTS laptop for around 1300... the only one I can remember being in that price range was the HP (or was it gateway?) that best buy was offering. Unfortunately best buys site is down for me right now so I can't see if they are still offering it or not. The problem with that laptop is, while yes... in gaming you may see a large increase, the processor on it was very weak, and the MBP would be much faster than it at other tasks, such as encoding.

The system you're speaking of had a 1.83GHz Core 2 Duo in it. Not "very weak" by any means.

In most real world situations, such as applying a filter to a picture in Photoshop, the difference would be unnoticeable. In other situations, since you'd be running Windows instead of OS X, watching youtube or visiting sites with Flash will run faster on the slower processor.

When you're encoding MPEG-2 video... well, encoding MPEG-2 is so fast these days that the difference between the two would be a couple of minutes. The 2.4GHz C2D in the MBP might get the job done in 15 minutes while the 1.83GHz C2D would get it done in about 17 or 18.

Encoding H.264 video is still ridiculously slow if you want quality. If you're ripping a DVD and you want a DVD quality encode for your iPod, iPhone, iPod touch, or Apple TV, with either system you practically HAVE to rip a couple of discs and set them to encode overnight while you sleep and shut down when they're done.

But thanks to the better GPU, the system with the slower processor will have a longer useable life. Games will run significantly better and at much higher settings for a longer time than the MBP could run modern games.

But also, that system will be able to play DVDs and blu-ray discs in reduced power states and at much lower CPU and GPU use than even DVDs require in OS X (thanks to OS X doing everything in software rather than hardware).

Seriously now... You're on a Mac message board, if you're going to say idiotic things like this just go somewhere else, otherwise you'll just be seen as a troll.

Not only am I on an Apple related message board, I'm typing this on my MacBook

I don't care if people see me as a troll. That just means they can't handle the facts. Like the fact that OS X doesn't support system wide hardware acceleration for video playback and, as a result, video doesn't look anywhere near as good as it does in Windows AND CPU use is unnecessarily high while playing video resulting in a much hotter system, which is bad because Macs already run unnecessarily hot.

Allowing users the ability to run an OS they like (doesn't matter if YOU like it or not) is a good thing, and it gives them choice. if they wanted to run Vista so bad, they can with bootcamp. Not to mention vista does NOT do everything OS X does. (You know, that entire, run OS X applications thing... tid bit of a snag).

Well, OS X can't run Windows apps without Windows installed inside of it either. Whats your point? And realistically, what would people rather have? The very small number of software applications available for OS X where its basically iWay or the Highway? Or run Windows where they have thousands upon thousands of applications to choose from?

OS X also doesn't have all of that neat video support I just mentioned, so you can't legally watch HD movies in OS X, and even if you do, the CPU use is through the roof and your system is going to cook even more than it does during a regular day. OS X can't play most major games, it lacks software and video choices. OS X is really only good if you're very limited in what you use your system for and you don't expect any advanced system functionality.

Your attitude and knowledge isn't that of a millionaire though... His attitude and knowledge sounds like someone who indeed does administer what he says.

Not really, because all of his facts are wrong.

So you when somebody posts stuff that are full of **** like 8400 is only slightly better than the intel crap you call that 'has knowledge'??

rofl no wonder Apple is making millions with so many dumb people around.

Exactly.

Geez, this thread is still alive? with all this trolling taking place?

Its not trolling when people are telling the truth.

Administering a few Apple Laptop carts, and talking about his experience with them, and his knowledge of how they work and such is where his attitude and knowledge show (atleast to me... since I do similar work and have had the same type of experiences he has)

Ah, but see, his facts were wrong. Essentially, everything he said was wrong.

Why exactly do you have a Macbook since you have so many issues with it. Wouldn't it be best to sell it since it's so bad.

I've thought about it. Theres two reasons so far. One, I'm lazy. I don't feel like going through the hassle to sell it.

Two, I'm an honest person. How can I honestly sell such low end hardware to someone so unsuspecting? I mean, I know Apple has problems ripping people off by selling them hardware at 200% markup, but me? I'm sure not going to sell this MacBook for what its truly worth and lose all the money I spent on it, but at the same time, I'd feel terrible selling it to someone for the market value while knowing they're getting such low end hardware.

I would honestly love my MacBook if it had dedicated graphics.

Written by somewhat who spends his time continuously installing and reinstalling various software.

I only have to reinstall OS X so often because of the problems OS X has. If it didn't crash so often I wouldn't have to reinstall it to try to figure out what exactly the problem is.

All the while Windows has been sitting comfortably in its own partition without any issues of any kind.

I use computers to do productive work, not to spend my life installing software and debugging things.

Which is why my HP running Vista is my primary system

I certify that upgrading mac OSes is a breeze. The mac does it itself, no need to intervene. No data is lost. No software stops working. It is the same mac as before, only with newer OS.

Apparently you didn't read these forums around the time Leopard was released Or Tiger, or Panther, etc. That is certainly not the case.

You know, when Leopard was released, people were reporting blue screens of death

Upgrading PCs is a mess. OK, perhaps one needs to do a fresh install for them. But then why wouldn't Bill Gates spend his time doing fresh install on my PC. My time is valuable, more valuable than his, to be waisted on this nonsense. After all, he doesn't do anything these days besides thinking of ways to spend his money. Whereas he should have thought of ways to make PCs as good as Macs. Or fix my PC for free.

Maybe Steve Jobs should stop playing with his iPhone and think of ways to bring OS X up to the level of Vista when it comes to simple things like video playback, or maybe he should think "hey! Those last iBooks had really good GPUs in them! Why don't we finally put dedicated graphics in the MacBook? I once made fun of Intel integrated graphics so why are we using them now?"

For the record, I upgraded to XP from 98SE back in the day and didn't have any issues.

It's just better to start fresh. Upgrading an OS is never a good idea.

These guys are lucky. My PCs have a lifespan of at most 3 years. After which, they are as good as garbarge.

Then stop mistreating them. I know people with PCs that are 5, 6, even 7 years old that are still running as good today as they were when I built them for them.

You know whats sad? That an eMachines that cost around $1299 back in 2003, combined with a $40 memory upgrade, is better at 3D apps, gaming, and video playback than a $1299 MacBook in 2008. Plus that eMachines also had a DVD writer, memory card reader, full options for outputs (no expensive adapters required to connect it to external displays).

Guys, please stop this Mac vs PC war of words. You are not helping the OP. He just wanted to convince his parents. We can tell him why he should listen to his parents, or why he should try harder to convince them, but please do it in a objective way.

And by the way, the OP does not seem to care if the MacBook is limited nor more expensive compared to laptops from the PC world. His only problem is he does not have enough money to buy a MacBook on his own, and that his parents don't want to buy one for him, but rather a PC laptop.

Blame the Apple fanboys.

I posted in this thread to tell the OP the real truth about Macs and how things really are, and how you can get double the hardware for less money than a Mac.

The Apple fans couldn't handle the truth and started the flame war.

The OP should care about what hes getting. I mean, it may not be his money and its his parents money so he doesn't appreciate just how much money they will be spending, but he should realize that with the Dell they want to buy him, he'll be getting MUCH better and more reliable hardware and they will be spending significantly less money than they would on a Mac.

 

[patrickmacrumor]

The Apple fans couldn't handle the truth and started the flame war.

The OP should care about what hes getting. I mean, it may not be his money and its his parents money so he doesn't appreciate just how much money they will be spending, but he should realize that with the Dell they want to buy him, he'll be getting MUCH better and more reliable hardware and they will be spending significantly less money than they would on a Mac.

You've raised some interesting points. I would not say the OP does not appreciate the money his parents are spending (I might be right or I might be wrong, but I'm not in the OP's head). But, I do believe, he does not fully understand his parents' point of view. I will blame that on youth. We have all been through times when we did not understand our parent's point of view, only to find out, later, that they were right. This is why I said that once the OP has to budget for his own house, car, kids and retirement, he'll better understand his parents' view. I was not born in Canada. My parents had to take a loan from the bank to buy my first computer, and they could not even finish paying it. I paid the balance, once I started working.

It's true that MacBook does not handle Flash video very well. Flash videos/animations will tag the CPU/GPU way much less on Windows (IE) than on Mac OS X.

I'm not a fan boy of any OS. I use both, and Linux. I always try to give honest pros and cons of both systems, and to warn people who have never had any experience with Mac and who think that problems don't exist on the Mac.

Those who say that PCs are crap after 3 years, should like you said, treat them better. I have seen many many Toshiba/Acers still running after 5 years. I know some Toshiba 110CT (Pentium) still running today. One even went through a fire, and the lid is black with smoke, but still works today.

I can certainly understand why the OP wants a MacBook. It is has a great look, and the OS is nice to work with. Plus, something new is always interesting. But sometimes, one has got to do what one has got to do.

--
Patrick

 

[theyellowdart]

Because GPUs have other functions these days.

Vista and a modern dedicated GPU will give you better video playback at lower CPU/GPU use and MUCH lower temperatures than a Mac. Thanks to that, a $599 HP with a $199 external blu-ray drive can play blu-ray movies while no Mac can because both OS X can't do it and because Apple didn't include the necessary firmware for HDCP, so it can't be done under Windows either.

You're going off on a complete tangent of what I was saying... all of that is good and nice, but means absolutly nothing to my point.

The system you're speaking of had a 1.83GHz Core 2 Duo in it. Not "very weak" by any means. .....

But thanks to the better GPU, the system with the slower processor will have a longer useable life. Games will run significantly better and at much higher settings for a longer time than the MBP could run modern games.

Yet again... all good and nice, and I don't disagree with most of it (except for the fact that the difference wouldn't be noticable most of the time. I disagree, but don't feel like getting in a drawn out argument about it)

My point was pretty simple, D4F made the statement that one could buy a PC laptop that was half the price, and twice as good performance wise. I called him out on it... That's it.

I don't care if people see me as a troll. That just means they can't handle the facts.

I'm sorry, but coming to this message board and saying that a computer not having the ability to run OS X is an "Advantage" is not giving facts... it's simply trolling.

Your opinion, and your first hand experience doesn't make something a fact.

Well, OS X can't run Windows apps without Windows installed inside of it either. Whats your point?

That windows can't do everything OS X can... Thought I made that kind of obvious no?

Not really, because all of his facts are wrong.

From what i've read and seen... not really. Just seems like his personal expereinces have differed from yours. It appears that if someone doesn't have the exact same experience you have had with something that they are inexperienced with it, or that your circumstantial evidence somehow outweighs theirs. I don't doubt that he has vista experience... why would he lie about it? it's not like he is out and out bashing it.

Not to mention, whenever you don't agree with something he says, or possible don't understand what he means, you say something along the lines of "You don't know what you're talking about."

The 64-bit OS for example, he is correct that 64-bit applications, and the OS itself will use more ram due to 64bit variables... which take up more RAM space. When he points out this is what he meant, you come back with a "You don't know what you're talking about" instead of explaining "No, you're wrong and this is why *insert reason*" Otherwise it really makes you come off as if you don't know what you're talking about.


I'll let this topic be for now... To much pointless tail chasing for my taste.

 

[zsft]

I know that, and please don't assume I don't know what the "scarcity problem" is. I've taken more than a few Economics courses.

I also gave my points why I think the OP parents' want the OP to get a Dell. But in case you missed it because it got lost in the war of words (or if you did not take the time to read all the comments), here it is: "Your parents are not really against you. They just want what is best for you. They probably feel that a Mac is too much money to put into a computer. You'll understand them once you have your own house, car, and kids and retirement to budget for. And since the computer repairman they know and trust cannot work on the Mac, they don't have peace of mind."

--
Patrick

Well I'm an econ major. And now you talk about money lol...kind of going against what you said earlier eh.

 

[patrickmacrumor]

Well I'm an econ major. And now you talk about money lol...kind of going against what you said earlier eh.

LOL...I'm still deciding if I'm going to pick Econ or French as a major: choice

What I was trying to say earlier was that we should stick to topic. It's okay to tell the OP why one thinks Windows is better than Mac or why Mac is better than Windows, or that there both have their pros and cons. However, it's not okay to keep "fighting" against each other. I was also trying to say that I understand the OP's parents point of view. Like you said, they want to make sure that their money is well spent. But, at the same time, I also undertand the OP wants (back to Econ again LOL).

If you read my initial comment, it might not be clear, but my "advice" to OP, take whatever his parents is giving him (a computer is better than no computer at all), and work/save to buy his own MacBook.

Note: there was no sarcasm in my post. I said "don't assume" because I know what scarcity is. I said "But in case you missed it because it got lost in the war of words (or if you did not take the time to read all the comments)," because my comment could have gotten lost in all these pages, and I cannot expect everyone to read all those pages. In fact, I wonder if the OP still reads this thread.

 

[BerkeleyMacKat]

OP a student?

And by the way, the OP does not seem to care if the MacBook is limited nor more expensive compared to laptops from the PC world. His only problem is he does not have enough money to buy a MacBook on his own, and that his parents don't want to buy one for him, but rather a PC laptop.

Is the OP a student or know anyone that is a student? I work at my campus computer store and right now we have a lot of really good deals on Macs for back to school. If the OP is a student (or knows a student that he can mooch off of), he should check out his campus store to get his computer at academic pricing and see if they have any other deals on top of it. When you factor in the education discount, apple computers really are spec for spec about the same price as a windows machine with similar specifications, if not cheaper. I mean, you are also paying for the quality of the machine as well as the great OS

Regardless if the OP is a student or not, as someone who sells both Macs and PCs on a daily basis, I have never have a customer come back just to tell me how much they love their Windows machine, but I have at least once every other month had someone come back and tell me how pleased they are with their Mac. That obviously doesn't mean that there aren't people happy with their windows machines... it just means that their experience on a Mac has been so enjoyable thus far that they took the time to come back just to let me know.

If that doesn't convince your parents... Best of luck.

 

[tsice19]

It's downright stupid to compare PCs to Macs.

Why? Everyone knows that if you compare the same specs of a Mac to a PC, the PC will have the same specs for half the price.

Here's the difference:

Macs run OS X, an operating system designed for Macs.

PCs run Windows, an operating system designed for Dells, Gateways, IBMs, Lenovos, etc;

5 Years down the road:

The Mac will still be able to load the most recent version of OS X. It might need some more RAM, or maybe a bigger HD, but it will still run it. And it will probably work just as it did when it was new.

The PC, however, will probably not be able to upgrade to Windows 7 because of new, insane requirements that are much higher than what was needed to run the previous OS. So, you will stay with the default OS. It will eventually become sluggish and bogged down with programs and bloatware.

So, who wins? The PC or the Mac. That's your call. But I'd say the Mac.


Another thing to think about:

The main reason PCs are disliked is because the hardware doesn't work together with the OS in a seamless fashion. No matter what OS you try to install on it, it won't work seamlessly with little effort. (like a Mac)

On the other hand, OS X generally integrates very well with the Apple hardware right out of the box. (Unless you get a faulty product, which can be replaced or fixed easily in a timely fashion.)


Sit there and bash both, but it all comes down to the Operating System.

And if you want OS X, you've got to pay a premium.

 

[alphaod]

^^^^^^^^
WTF????? you practically wrote a reply to each and every post in this thread

Or someone is smart he knows to use Multi-quote instead of posting a new post to every reply.

at least with my parents they get me whatever mac i want, good that they understand the mac ads

Or the other way to look at it is your parents are idiots, listen a lot of stupids ads, and can't think for themselves.

Of course I'm not saying they are idiots in any way, so don't take it personally.

ecs of a Mac to a PC, the PC will have the same specs for half the price.

Here's the difference:

Macs run OS X, an operating system designed for Macs.

PCs run Windows, an operating system designed for Dells, Gateways, IBMs, Lenovos, etc;

Please do not mix up PCs and Operation Systems; Gentoo is very good if you customize it correctly.