My Parents Hate Apple

[D4F]

Ok. First of all. Don't call me a "fanboi", and spell it right. I have a dell laptop and a macbook. The only difference you will see in performance is video accelerated tasks. If thats what you are doing, then the macbook isnt the laptop you should be doing this comparison on. Also, this dell you spec'd out isnt even a 13.3 in screen. You are comparing a multi-purpose laptop to a general purpose laptop. Comparing graphics performance to the integrated graphics in the macbook is a moot point. Its an integrated graphics implementation, making it a general purpose laptop right from the start. You wouldn't use this for video accelerated tasks. So why are you comparing to it? I should be the one calling you a fanboy.

Right... another brilliant idea lol.
Price comparison +/- 1 to 1 is the best factor for 'you get what you pay for'.
So if I have two systems for almost same price and specs differ so bad that it makes you laugh then it's all I need to know.
You make it sound like a macbook is great which it isn't as for same $$$ I get half (or more) less performance.

BUT let's follow your idea and go further... you wrote:

Also, this dell you spec'd out isnt even a 13.3 in screen

(just so you know you should write 13.3")

So you are even complaining now that your choice for same amount of $$ has even smaller screen and you make it sound like a good thing in terms of performance. ROFL dude. Get of that horse and walk for a bit.

Its an integrated graphics implementation, making it a general purpose laptop right from the start.

Even dumber way of thinking.

Why would I pay $1300 for a general purpose laptop that I can buy for $499 in Walmart (often with more RAM) and will do perfect for general tasks??


Everything you say proves the Mac is overpriced compared to the one I posted. So crystal clear that even Steve Wonder would see it.

 

[iShater]

Can you guys stay on topic for a change? take the Mac vs. PC fights to the school yard.

Thanks.

 

[theyellowdart]

Can you guys stay on topic for a change? take the Mac vs. PC fights to the school yard.

Thanks.

Nevar

 

[D4F]

Can you guys stay on topic for a change? take the Mac vs. PC fights to the school yard.

Thanks.

I agree with this one but keep in mind that what I am giving here is black on white numbers and somebody not very familiar with that kind of information might find it useful.
Not my fault some people wear 100% tint shaded sunglasses all the time in their life and can happily live overpaying for a product.
The OP might want to play Video Games soon as he sounds like he's still in his coolest age. He might want to start experimenting with video or graphics sooner or later.
He might want to watch a HD movie sometime with his GF.
And the sad truth is he will have a hard time doing it all flawlessly on a Macbook.. IF he will as if he wants to play a game then he needs to search in titles released around year 2000 (and I'm afraid quite a few of those would be too much for the crapbook)

 

[theyellowdart]

I agree with this one but keep in mind that what I am giving here is black on white numbers and somebody not very familiar with that kind of information might find it useful.
Not my fault some people wear 100% tint shaded sunglasses all the time in their life and can happily live overpaying for a product.
The OP might want to play Video Games soon as he sounds like he's still in his coolest age. He might want to start experimenting with video or graphics sooner or later.
He might want to watch a HD movie sometime with his GF.
And the sad truth is he will have a hard time doing it all flawlessly on a Macbook.. IF he will as if he wants to play a game then he needs to search in titles released around year 2000 (and I'm afraid quite a few of those would be too much for the crapbook)

I pretty much agree 100% with this post.

What the TC needs to do is spec out a PC he is interested in, spec out a Mac he is interested in. Understand the hardware limitations that may come with getting the Mac, and then decide if the ability to run OS X and the applications that go along with it is worth any possible price and performance difference.

If he can, then he should get the mac, if he can't he should get the PC.

 

[iShater]

Nevar

I wouldn't be surprised


D4F there is a difference between giving your opinion and the attacks you do bud. The OP would like a MacBook and wants to know what he should do.

You can easily list your points to what you think is areas he should consider. It is that simple.

I mean why do you own an iMac even if you are so not into Macs? OSX? iApps? there are so many reasons why people pick a system, a brand, etc.

just my 2c. You guys went away from giving advice to just arguing, which happens all over the place already and no need to waste your keystroke over.

 

[iShater]

I pretty much agree 100% with this post.

What the TC needs to do is spec out a PC he is interested in, spec out a Mac he is interested in. Understand the hardware limitations that may come with getting the Mac, and then decide if the ability to run OS X and the applications that go along with it is worth any possible price and performance difference.

If he can, then he should get the mac, if he can't he should get the PC.

Yep. You forgot the part about convincing his parents to get him whatever system he ends up wanting

 

[sabregreen]

Right... another brilliant idea lol.
Price comparison +/- 1 to 1 is the best factor for 'you get what you pay for'.
So if I have two systems for almost same price and specs differ so bad that it makes you laugh then it's all I need to know.
You make it sound like a macbook is great which it isn't as for same $$$ I get half (or more) less performance.

BUT let's follow your idea and go further... you wrote:

(just so you know you should write 13.3")

So you are even complaining now that your choice for same amount of $$ has even smaller screen and you make it sound like a good thing in terms of performance. ROFL dude. Get of that horse and walk for a bit.


Even dumber way of thinking.

Why would I pay $1300 for a general purpose laptop that I can buy for $499 in Walmart (often with more RAM) and will do perfect for general tasks??


Everything you say proves the Mac is overpriced compared to the one I posted. So crystal clear that even Steve Wonder would see it.

There is a concept known as portability. You are trying to do an absolute comparison without taking in account purpose. If I want a portable laptop, but the 15.4 in is cheaper than the 13.3, I still don't want the 15.4 in screen. If I want a gaming laptop, but the 13.3 in screen is cheaper, I still dont want the 13.3 in screen. Is that so hard to understand? Again why are you comparing apples to oranges. I have posted several times here stating that its about opinion on the operating system, not hardware. I'm not on my "horse." I'm not talking up one product over the other here, made obvious by my other posts. You are not proving anything to me. Your statement was false. Plain and simple.


I have specifically pointed out the concept of Total Cost of Ownership here. I don't know if you didnt see that or what. Had seen it, you would see that I say that the total cost of ownership for the mac is generally going to be higher. Again, why you are arguing price is what I don't understand as I am not arguing the fact that the prices of Macs are generally higher. Never have I argued that.

Can you guys stay on topic for a change? take the Mac vs. PC fights to the school yard.

Thanks.

I have said many times about getting off topic. I have tried to give a neutral opinion to the OP. Its hard to give a neutral opinion and see statements that are invalid. I can reiterate my stance. Its not about the system being a Mac or PC. It's about what system fulfills your needs within your price point.

 

[D4F]

I wouldn't be surprised


D4F there is a difference between giving your opinion and the attacks you do bud. The OP would like a MacBook and wants to know what he should do.

You can easily list your points to what you think is areas he should consider. It is that simple.

I mean why do you own an iMac even if you are so not into Macs? OSX? iApps? there are so many reasons why people pick a system, a brand, etc.

just my 2c. You guys went away from giving advice to just arguing, which happens all over the place already and no need to waste your keystroke over.

Why I have both systems?? Cause I know exactly all factors I need to know to make the purchase.
At work we use multi platforms and I need them both sometimes. Bootcamp is out of the question and Mac Pro was a overkill (I had one and sold it few weeks ago).
The Mac Pro that I sold was too limited in terms of future upgrades and stability (who knows what Snow will do to compatibility for third party apps. Keep in mind that I use software that is worth good $14000 at this point and I can not find out that I'm stuck as Snow lives in it's own world) compared to a custom build PC system for over 40% less $$.

For all 3D apps I use Vista 64 bit is brilliant not mentioning that key soft that I use is not even available for Mac. I simply need them both. There is a reason I'm moving back to PCs tho. Macs can not match performance to price comparison against PCs and when you think 30 workstations + soft licenses then you should get a clue.

And everything I do for my business I do for myself. I Just hate to throw money on a half assed systems and that is exactly what a macbook is.
Show me any youngster that will be happy with it's computer that only runs iWork without problems??
Unless the OP likes to type a lot and it's all he does then I suggest him to take a very good advice of his parents as they might now way more than anybody here thinks.

 

[iShater]

D4F have you owned a MacBook before?

*hold sabregreen and the theyellowdart back!*

 

[sabregreen]

I wouldn't be surprised


D4F there is a difference between giving your opinion and the attacks you do bud. The OP would like a MacBook and wants to know what he should do.

You can easily list your points to what you think is areas he should consider. It is that simple.

I mean why do you own an iMac even if you are so not into Macs? OSX? iApps? there are so many reasons why people pick a system, a brand, etc.

just my 2c. You guys went away from giving advice to just arguing, which happens all over the place already and no need to waste your keystroke over.

My intention was never to argue. I want the OP to get the best advice possible.

 

[D4F]

There is a concept known as portability. You are trying to do an absolute comparison without taking in account purpose. If I want a portable laptop, but the 15.4 in is cheaper than the 13.3, I still don't want the 15.4 in screen. If I want a gaming laptop, but the 13.3 in screen is cheaper, I still dont want the 13.3 in screen. Is that so hard to understand? Again why are you comparing apples to oranges. I have posted several times here stating that its about opinion on the operating system, not hardware. I'm not on my "horse." I'm not talking up one product over the other here, made obvious by my other posts. You are not proving anything to me. Your statement was false. Plain and simple.


I have specifically pointed out the concept of Total Cost of Ownership here. I don't know if you didnt see that or what. Had seen it, you would see that I say that the total cost of ownership for the mac is generally going to be higher. Again, why you are arguing price is what I don't understand as I am not arguing the fact that the prices of Macs are generally higher. Never have I argued that.



I have said many times about getting off topic. I have tried to give a neutral opinion to the OP. Its hard to give a neutral opinion and see statements that are invalid. I can reiterate my stance. Its not about the system being a Mac or PC. It's about what system fulfills your needs within your price point.

Ok. Here's the portability version like you love:

PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T8300 (2.4GHz/800Mhz FSB/3MB cache) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1 edit
LCD AND CAMERA Slim and Light LED Display with VGA Webcam edit
MEMORY 3GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz edit
HARD DRIVE Size: 320GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM) edit
INTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVE CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW Drive) edit
VIDEO CARD 128MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ 8400M GS edit
WIRELESS CARDS Dell Wireless 1395 802.11g Mini Card edit
BLUETOOTH AND WIRELESS USB Built-in Bluetooth capability (2.0 EDR)

it still beats the crap out of the Macbook for $1366 after rebate.

 

[D4F]

D4F have you owned a MacBook before?

*hold sabregreen and the theyellowdart back!*

I did. Back in the days when I traveled a lot.
At first I was very happy (it was my first Mac) but after a while all the ohhs and ahhs faded and obvious things hit me as I needed performance and it was nowhere to be found.

 

[sabregreen]

Why I have both systems?? Cause I know exactly all factors I need to know to make the purchase.
At work we use multi platforms and I need them both sometimes. Bootcamp is out of the question and Mac Pro was a overkill (I had one and sold it few weeks ago).
The Mac Pro that I sold was too limited in terms of future upgrades and stability (who knows what Snow will do to compatibility for third party apps. Keep in mind that I use software that is worth good $14000 at this point and I can not find out that I'm stuck as Snow lives in it's own world) compared to a custom build PC system for over 40% less $$.

What is the said stability issue?

And everything I do for my business I do for myself. I Just hate to throw money on a half assed systems and that is exactly what a macbook is.
Show me any youngster that will be happy with it's computer that only runs iWork without problems??

Only run iWork? This is a senseless statement.

Post your opinions all you want. But the ones you've made above are useless.

 

[sabregreen]

Ok. Here's the portability version like you love:

PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T8300 (2.4GHz/800Mhz FSB/3MB cache) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1 edit
LCD AND CAMERA Slim and Light LED Display with VGA Webcam edit
MEMORY 3GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz edit
HARD DRIVE Size: 320GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM) edit
INTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVE CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW Drive) edit
VIDEO CARD 128MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ 8400M GS edit
WIRELESS CARDS Dell Wireless 1395 802.11g Mini Card edit
BLUETOOTH AND WIRELESS USB Built-in Bluetooth capability (2.0 EDR)

it still beats the crap out of the Macbook for $1366 after rebate.

The video card is slightly better, some more memory, bigger hard drive, same processor. I don't disagree with that laptop not being a good laptop as I love the 1330 and 1530. But this doesn't make a huge difference in performance. The memory will make some difference, the video card some. In fact, had this came out, for a little cheaper than what you posted, I would have got it instead of the macbook. The problem is, it can't run Mac OS X natively. Thats my only issue with this laptop.

 

[iShater]

I was looking at those specs and I got confused, it almost sounded like Dell just released some super laptop!

So with rebate, you get a spec-wise better laptop. As others have stated, OSX, iLife, etc.

So to the OP, D4F votes for you to got for the Dell. Even though I have a feeling it is not the same Dell your parents were looking at.

There we go. Happy yall? Advice/opinion given, now we can go back to life.

 

[D4F]

What is the said stability issue?

Nobody knows yet and that is the thing when you look at $250.000 investment.
What if Snow does not allow you to use current applications??
It will mean that I need to stick to last gen platform to run the software I need. Work or home it does not matter. My Personal PC has close to $14.000 worth of software in it and I like to upgrade it's performance without having to go all out and buy a new system again.
Next year Intel is supposed to throw something really fast to the market. I will need that to improve my work flow and I'll need a new mobo and a new CPU and NOT the whole new computer to use that power.

As for current stability issues... Leopard isn't bug free just as the soft I use it while on PC everything is dead stable.

Only run iWork? This is a senseless statement.

Post your opinions all you want. But the ones you've made above are useless.

Maybe for you lol. Even stupid Flash CS3 is uless on a macbook as it can not play a 30FPS 720P animation without frames skipping. Photoshop is great... if you're doing postcards. Games?? rofl... HD video?? sorry Youtube does not give me the quality I like.

it's great if you want to show off tho I got to agree. But for me, looks is not enough for $1400

 

[theyellowdart]

Maybe for you lol. Even stupid Flash CS3 is uless on a macbook as it can not play a 30FPS 720P animation without frames skipping. Photoshop is great... if you're doing postcards.

I can say, from personal experience, a macbook can run photoshop (with many many layers) with no major issues at all. Of course it's not going to be workstation quality by anymeans, but it works just fine for a laptop.

Not to mention, if you are constantly going to be doing that type of activity, you really shouldn't even be looking at a macbook, or any portable based laptop like the macbook.

So if the TC will be doing those tasks heavily, he should stay away from getting the Macbook.

 

[D4F]

The video card is slightly better, some more memory, bigger hard drive, same processor. I don't disagree with that laptop not being a good laptop as I love the 1330 and 1530. But this doesn't make a huge difference in performance. The memory will make some difference, the video card some. In fact, had this came out, for a little cheaper than what you posted, I would have got it instead of the macbook. The problem is, it can't run Mac OS X natively. Thats my only issue with this laptop.

Come on man.

Look at the score here between GPUs alone:
3DMark 05in comparison

Current Macbook GPU:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Graphics-Media-Accelerator-X3100.2176.0.html

Score 800 something.

8400 GS in that Dell:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVidia-GeForce-8400M-GS.3709.0.html

Score 2600 something.

Man that is not slightly better rofl. that's HUGE difference.

LED screen - huge factor in terms of battery life.
More RAM.. come on lol. it's crucial! Especially that Leopard ain't too 'snappy' with 1GB
More HD... Are you sure you are browsing this forums long enough?? every time a new rev is coming out you have thousands of post about 'we need a bigger HD'

And you are right about OS X but it has nothing to do with performance here. It's just a different OS and unfortunately very limited when it comes to software availability. Very small compared to Win based system.

Macbooks are great for any general oriented user that likes to email/surf and write a lot.
Show my any teenager that would be satisfied with such narrow possibilities. His friends will play WoW at full FPS while he will have ultra low res to run it and terrible fps in crowded areas AND WE ARE IN 2008

 

[sabregreen]

Nobody knows yet and that is the thing when you look at $250.000 investment.
What if Snow does not allow you to use current applications??
It will mean that I need to stick to last gen platform to run the software I need. Work or home it does not matter. My Personal PC has close to $14.000 worth of software in it and I like to upgrade it's performance without having to go all out and buy a new system again.
Next year Intel is supposed to throw something really fast to the market. I will need that to improve my work flow and I'll need a new mobo and a new CPU and NOT the whole new computer to use that power.

As for current stability issues... Leopard isn't bug free just as the soft I use it while on PC everything is dead stable.

If thats what you are concerned about, you should think about the next gen version of Windows. It could raise compatibility issues, just like Vista when it first came out. I have software that doesn't run on Vista at all still.

Maybe for you lol. Even stupid Flash CS3 is uless on a macbook as it can not play a 30FPS 720P animation without frames skipping. Photoshop is great... if you're doing postcards. Games?? rofl... HD video?? sorry Youtube does not give me the quality I like.

it's great if you want to show off tho I got to agree. But for me, looks is not enough for $1400

You are basically saying a macbook can't do anything at all. That is a really terrible statement. I know a photographer that does photoshop using 30+ layers that works just fine on his macbook and his dell inspiron 6000. They both have integrated graphics.

 

[theyellowdart]

Come on man.
Show my any teenager that would be satisfied with such narrow possibilities. His friends will play WoW at full FPS while he will have ultra low res to run it and terrible fps in crowded areas AND WE ARE IN 2008

WoW runs fine, on high settings, in crowded areas... Zero issues.

Also, you keep seemingly believing that all teenagers are gamers (and PC gamers at that)... they aren't. In fact, most aren't.

 

[sabregreen]

Come on man.

Look at the score here between GPUs alone:
3DMark 05in comparison

Current Macbook GPU:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Graphics-Media-Accelerator-X3100.2176.0.html

Score 800 something.

8400 GS in that Dell:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVidia-GeForce-8400M-GS.3709.0.html

Score 2600 something.

Man that is not slightly better rofl. that's HUGE difference.

Again. Portability. But lets look at this. The games the show a big difference for a majority are older games. They will show a big difference. Newer games however don't show much of an improvement. Also, 3dmark05 is an older benchmark, which won't really take into consideration new technology and improvements in the newer video cards.

LED screen - huge factor in terms of battery life. True I didnt say otherwise?
More RAM.. come on lol. it's crucial! Especially that Leopard ain't too 'snappy' with 1GBYa, just not in dual channel
More HD... Are you sure you are browsing this forums long enough?? every time a new rev is coming out you have thousands of post about 'we need a bigger HD'I didnt disagree with this either, doesnt really affect performance

And you are right about OS X but it has nothing to do with performance here. It's just a different OS and unfortunately very limited when it comes to software availability. Very small compared to Win based system.

Macbooks are great for any general oriented user that likes to email/surf and write a lot.
Show my any teenager that would be satisfied with such narrow possibilities. His friends will play WoW at full FPS while he will have ultra low res to run it and terrible fps in crowded areas AND WE ARE IN 2008

I am an engineering major and I am using it do do everything I do at school. Does more than just email/surf/write a lot. Again, this portable laptop isn't aimed at playing games.

 

[D4F]

WoW runs fine, on high settings, in crowded areas... Zero issues.

Also, you keep seemingly believing that all teenagers are gamers (and PC gamers at that)... they aren't. In fact, most aren't.

It does?? Strange as it never did for me and I liked to play WoW/SWG when I traveled.

And I do not believe in anything. That is why I post about the other side of the Moon while most people here act like it doesn't exist.
The more the potential buyer knows the better decision he will make and I don't care if all the Apple fanatics like it or not
I use Apple products but that does not mean I do it blindly.

 

[grym]

Mac Hardware

Here is a simple argument, as far as I am concerned.

I own a 2003 Powerbook G4. Cost $2200. 5 years old. Looks like new. Had Jaguar preinstalled when bought, but now runs Leopard. All the upgrades, Jaguar->Panther->Tiger->Leopard went smoothly, without a hitch, simply by popping in a disk and pressing a button. Works smoothly. Does everything one needs from a computer in 2008.

I also own a 2003 Thinkpad T30 (made when it was still IBM, not lenovo!). Cost $2200. 5 years old. Barely works. Upgrading from Windows 2000 to XP was a mess. Had to spend hours just to reinstall the necessary software. Upgrading to Vista is out of question. The screen has almost separated from the body. Every once in a while spontaneously switches off. Very slow. Impossible to use.

Which one was a better investment? Decide for yourself.

 

[D4F]

I didnt disagree with this either, doesnt really affect performance

You are getting more than twice for same $$. How is that not better performance especially that hardware IS working at least twice as fast in most cases?
3GB RAM at same speeds will give you better performance than 1GB
Better video card will give you better performance in anything from looking at big sized pictures and trying to scroll the browser bar to playing games or using GPU hungry apps.
More HD means you can store a lot more stuff for the same $$ spent.
It's all performance no matter how you look at it.

I am an engineering major and I am using it do do everything I do at school. Does more than just email/surf/write a lot. Again, this portable laptop isn't aimed at playing games.

Which does not make it worth the $$ compared to PC systems no matter how you look at it. It does the job sure. But why pay $1300 if you can get same for $699?
That is something I do not understand anymore and feel stupid that I fell for that 'Apple' thing before.

If you want to go with Apple go for MBP or maxed iMac. Those two at least give you good performance so you're not lying when you say you have a good and powerful system. Put the rest of it's $$ value into design and at least you can't complain as it does everything you need. But for $1300 you better be sure all you need is a cool looking typewriter.