My PC friend and his complaints with Macs

[mateybob]

kid you have some serious delusions of grandeur... you are not the tech god you think you are... almost all your qualms about macs stem from a lack of understanding rather than fact.. a lot of this has been said before but ill reiterate..

"Good thing you snagged that right, mateybob. Clearly you are a far more experienced computer user, being able to talk about the &, one of the most simple Unix options ever."

my point is not that & is complicated.. quite the opposite.. the fact that you never realised you could use it just shows how little you understand about mac osx... (or perhaps unix in general)

"how can a Mac user call another user's browser choice "ridiculous" ?? Aren't you all supposed to be open minded and fair??"

internet explorer and konquerer are two of the worst browsers out there.. its just a fact.. i would have thought that some how "knows quite a bit about computers" would use something more serious...

"Here's the question I ask myself: can a Mac do what my PC does? Last night I wrote down all the things my Linux box and my Windows machines were doing. The Windows machine had four users logged on. One was downloading an iso (the full 700+ megs). Another had a 3d game minimized. The user that was up was playing streaming videos online. My linux machine had over 50 programs up, including two emulators, one running DOS, one running my test operating system. A video player was paused. Seven virtual desktops were running. Two programs in development were open."

firstly, yes a mac can do that with no problems what so ever... secondly, there is nothing processor intensive about downloading and the fact thats its a "FULL 700+ MEGS!!!!" doesnt make it anymore so...
i mean what youre describing here is something that computers years ago could do with ease so im not sure what youre so proud of...

"So tell me, can you develop programs on your Mac? If QT is busy, can you still play videos (or do you have to click cancel first?) Can you run more than two dozen processor intensive programs at once? Maybe you claim you can, but I've never seen it done."

thats right, youve obviously never seen it done.. probably because you have never even owned a mac.. kind of goes to show how ignorant you are about the whole issue.. and the answers to your individual questions are (in no particular order) yes, yes and yes..

"And enough of this "well you've only seen lab computers" bull****."

why not? its a perfectly valid fact..

"PS: whoever said this: "to say macs suck is to say unix sucks ". YOU ARE THE DUMBEST PERSON EVER!"

no you are the dumbest person ever.. please have a think about what youre saying here.. are you sure you have a clue about the architecture of macosx?

maybe YOU should stop posting before you embarase yourself (oh wait.. to late for that).. youre meaningless tech drivel doesnt really impress anyone.. just because you can "program" doesnt mean you know everything about computers yet alone macs... contrary to your belief there are many serious developers on macosx and on these forums and we can see through your bull****..

 

[Danrose1977]

Here's the question I ask myself: can a Mac do what my PC does.

A friend of mine told me that his windows machine can do anything my Mac can do, and faster.... I asked him to show me it mounting a disk image without 3rd party software.

Personally I don't think there is any point in arguing these points... people are always going to disagree. You like Win and Lin, I like Mac. Surely there is nothing to discuss!?!?

Personally I believe that OSx is the future.... for me at least anyway. The average PC user might not care about expose and an aestheticly pleasing OS, but I love it and find it gut wrenchingly awkward to have to use PC's at work (I am a network engineer for a fairly large hosting company www.fasthosts.co.uk). There are benefits to many different OS'es (I'm currently working mostly with win2003 web edition) but surely there is benefit to larger freedom of choice, and it is proven that the market will support multiple OS'es.

 

[mateybob]

Personally I don't think there is any point in arguing these points... people are always going to disagree. You like Win and Lin, I like Mac. Surely there is nothing to discuss!?!?

on most topics i would agree with you... but macosx is just better than windows.. FACT... if you gave every windows user a mac and forced them to use it for 6 months im sure theyd all agree too...
the truth is so many windows users either just asume that macs suck because noone uses them or have some strange HATRED for them... very very rarely is this based on anything factual..

i have a theory that the educational market is really hurting apple... so many kids have to use macs at school... and as ive said before lab computers suck.. ESPECIALLY when they are being used by school kids and maintained by a teacher... and lets face it.. most people dont associate 'educational' with 'cool'.. i dont know but i think that so many people grow up disregarding apple because theyre just some crap they used in school... maybe im wrong ;/

 

[brap]

<snip same old My OS is better than yours stuff>

I can't believe this thread is still alive. Maybe everyone just feels the need to vent? Sure he was wrong on a few choice points, but hey, telling him so isn't going to change anything. It's like expecting VOTE BUSH 2004 to instantly rack up support for everyone's favourite Texan.

 

[Makosuke]

As pointless as this thread is, after reading through five pages of it I feel driven to post anyway.

What it comes down to is very simple: intx13 is a hardcore geek; he likes doing a bunch of stuff, hacking around with his OS, writing all sorts of code, and cobbling things together on his own. This is fine, and in my opinion, Linux is the best choice of OS for someone who wants to do most of these things.

And indeed, if I had no job and no money, spending a week putting together a solid Linux install on found hardware would be far preferable to even the $130 that a new copy of the MacOS costs. It'd also be fun, and I'd probably feel proud of myself when I finished.

That does not, however, make Linux a superior OS to the MacOS. It might be superior based on your personal tastes, or on some specific thing you personally want to do, but that in no way makes one choice superior to the other.

And this is where intx13 goes completely overboard; instead of arguing that Linux is a superior OS for the, say, 0.3% (give or take) of computer users that are hardcore enough tech geeks that they feel driven to run Linux on their production box and even Xcode isn't enough for them, he's arguing that OSX's inability to satisfy this need somehow outweighs its superiority in a huge number of more commonly used areas in the grand scheme of things, making it an "inferior" OS.

It's this simple: The right tool for the right job.

OSX currently handles media better than any other OS, almost without question. That satisfies, say, 3-5% of computer users. OSX is an exceedingly easy to use OS for the layman, who's satisfied with writing a few documents, surfing the web, sending a few e-mails, and maybe playing a video or looking at some digital photos now and then. Those people make up 90% of computer users, and that is an area that although Linux may theoretically be able to compete in, it cannot without an experienced tech to set it up, and I believe Windows falls short of OSX in as well. The remaining, say, 15% of computer users do tough and varying things with their OS, but aren't so geeky that they're writing their own OS from scratch--I'm in that category, as are many of the engineers I work with, and OSX suits their needs just fine. Windows can handle that too, as can in most cases Linux.

Does this make any of these OSes superior? No. On balance, based on a lot of experience, I think it puts OSX ahead, but just use the right tool for your job and give up on circular arguments with no basis in reality.


Incidentally, if anybody is curious, here's the experience my opinions are based on:

I've worked with computers since the mid-80s (which is when I was old enough to type), and I administer a lab running a mix of Macs (9.2 - 10.3) and Windows (NT4 - XP). I also work with home users that have difficulty understanding the difference between an e-mail address and "the Internet".

If it actually took a week to get a solid linux distro running, that would cost $1000 of my time, which, when added to the $0 cost of the OS, is still $1000, or in the case of my personal use 40 hours I'd rather spend with my wife. A solid OSX box properly configured to a specific user's situation takes me about $100 of work to set up, and a Windows box roughly twice that (though in some cases it's taken a whole lot more, depending on the OS version and hardware). All those numbers are variable, of course, but this is getting back to the TCO point that many people have made and seems to be lost on a lot of Linux users.

Furthermore, I do real work on my Mac. I don't compile my own OS, but I do write LabVIEW code that runs fuel cell development systems and embedded controllers for stand-alone energy systems. I also do a whole lot of video editing (and watching) at home, create DVDs for fun and profit, do subtitling work, download plenty of large CD images, do web development, occasionally write some PHP code, as well as do a whole lot of mundane things that most computer users do. My OSX mac does all these things just fine, and in general stably.

At work, I've been testing; my 10.3.3 Mac (not a really new machine) has currently been up for 61 days and counting; this is my admin box which sees a lot of shaky software (I use it as a tinderbox) and network activity. Of the other OSX machines, I have only heard of a single kernel panic, and that was after half a year of use by a guy who does heavy-duty statistical analysis using UNIX tools in an X11 environment, as well as a whole lot of other stuff.

Our PCs, since I take good care of them, are also relatively stable, and we have NT4 and XP installs that run for months running custom-built test software. The everyday-use Windows boxes aren't nearly as stable, but they work ok as well. But, it takes me more time to keep them running this well, and costs my employer more money as a result.

Point being, many versions of Windows and OSX, as well as Linux, can be made to do what you want them to do. In some cases, some OSes are better for a job than others, or can do it more easily. In others, it's just a matter of preference. But for most normal people, as well as all but a handful of very technical folks, I'd say Macs are just going to do what you want them to with less hassle.

Hence, despite having used a whole lot of OSes, it's the MacOS that I choose to come home to every day. Why is that so hard for some people to fathom?


(Incidentally, I tested: I'm currently running several concurrent CD-sized downloads, a few similar-sized uploads via BitTorrent, playing an MP3 in the background, have two browsers open, am playing two videos with QT, have an iMovie video preview playing with smoothing on, 20 or so apps open, my wife is also logged in at the same time, and I'm typing this, and my activity monitor says the computer is ready to do much more. So yeah, no problem here.)

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Mitthrawnuruodo: "The best thing to do when meeting people who...just smile". Oooorrrr, if you truly believed in your own argument, you could try to convince them. REfusing to stand up for your own argument is a statement in itself.

 

[intx13]

There, there, look, a PC! Run for your life!

Okay, this is probably going to be my last post, since I'm getting less and less intelligent responses, and more "maybe if we ignore him he'll go away" responses.

Okay, mateybob, you're first up:
"you are not the tech god you think you are"
As I've already mentioned, I do not consider myself a tech god. I'm a high school student. If I was a tech "god" I wouldn't need to ask you guys tech questions about OSX now would I?

"my point is not that & is complicated.. quite the opposite.. the fact that you never realised you could use it just shows how little you understand about mac osx... (or perhaps unix in general)"
Umm, who said I never realized how to use the &? My point about running multiple instances of a program was that I didn't expect the command prompt to be a necessary tool for such a simple thing. And just to let you know: the & has NOTHING to do with running multiple instances of a program. The & assigns a task to be executed in the background (it forks off a process rather than hanging the terminal while it runs). But as other people here have mentioned, when running programs from the terminal, OSX doesn't stop multiple instances from being assigned their own pids. So please make sure you know what you're talking about before suggesting that others don't know it.

"secondly, there is nothing processor intensive about downloading and the fact thats its a "FULL 700+ MEGS!!!!" doesnt make it anymore so... "
Sigh... you missed the point. Streaming videos and background downloading processes both use the hard drives and internet connections, and the video playing needs graphics juice as well. And the game minimized does INDEED take processor power (I'm not sure who it was that suggested it didn't), as it's consuming cycles whether its up or not. It takes less cycles than if its up, but the point is that its a very hard drive/cd rom drive intensive, processor intensive task running in the background.

"thats right, youve obviously never seen it done.. probably because you have never even owned a mac.. kind of goes to show how ignorant you are about the whole issue.. and the answers to your individual questions are (in no particular order) yes, yes and yes.."
You see, this is why people like you come across as ignorant rather than intelligent. Another user here simply pointed out that yes, a development environment comes with OSX, a fact that I didn't know, and I am glad for his input. But you, on the other hand, just called me ignorant "about the whole issue". If you can't really contribute to the discussion, why bother to post?

"youre meaningless tech drivel doesnt really impress anyone.. just because you can "program" doesnt mean you know everything about computers yet alone macs... contrary to your belief there are many serious developers on macosx and on these forums and ..."
I'm not trying to impress anyone, let alone YOU. And perhaps you could quote me on the whole "belief there are many serious developers on this on macosx"? Of course there are! After all, there are programs for the system! I never said that there are no developers for it.

"on most topics i would agree with you... but macosx is just better than windows.. FACT... if you gave every windows user a mac and forced them to use it for 6 months im sure theyd all agree too... "
Wow, i like the facts present in this argument. Oh wait, this is complete supposition without any basis on reality. Oh well, what more could I expect from the wise mateybob.

"we can see through your bull****.."
I can't fool you, can I...


Chris H, next up to bat:
"the free argument is losing its bite"
Not so. In fact, most people agree that the top linux distros are Redhat, Fedora (yeah, i know, im aware of the relationship between redhat and fedora), Mandrake, SuSE, Slackware, and Debian. Out of these, ALL ARE FREE. Mandrake asks for money, but is completely free. In fact, all of the distros will accept money if you send it, but all provide their services free. Mandrake will give you other software if you pay, but the operating system is free.

Apple Hobo:
"Linux zealots suck."
Way to be open minded.

 

[intx13]

Hmm, i overran the maximum post size!

Makosuke (one of the few intelligent replies to my posts):
"OSX currently handles media better than any other OS, almost without question"
OK, I'm good with that so far.

"OSX is an exceedingly easy to use OS for the layman, who's satisfied with writing a few documents, surfing the web, sending a few e-mails, and maybe playing a video or looking at some digital photos now and then. "
Maybe, but I've heard some pretty strong complaints (mainly superficial though). I guess it can be said that someone who doesn't want to do anything more than type memos and send email can figure out how to use a mac pretty easily.

"Those people make up 90% of computer users, and that is an area that although Linux may theoretically be able to compete in, it cannot without an experienced tech to set it up,"
Well, as your friends here have metioned, I am a fairly young and inexperienced tech. And I set up my first linux box in a week, and had it running smoothly a few days after that. It's really not that hard. Linux can be just as easy to use as Mac OS, and look just like it if you want.

Also, thanks for the stuff about develppment. I wasn't quite up on that.


Calebj14, you're number has been called:
"Take some of you're own advice and get off your "high horse!" Baaah.. Linux and Windows doing anything??!?!? Right...... ..."
Maybe you haven't been using linux for a while, buts its been a looong time since any mouse required drudging up drivers off the internet. And with apt and similar programs, its all automated anyway. And when have you EVER seen linux frozen? I've never seen it happen. Ever. And Linux and Windows DO interface nicely, samba works well for sharing.

1. write programs out of the box - yep
2. digital edit out of the box - nope, you get a point
3. immune to most virii, etc. - Check, as well as immunization to hack attacks (comes with a built in firewall...a good one)
4.F@H - what does this stand for??
5. MICROSOFT office - Comes with the exact equivalent (but OOo is more powerful and free, and can share any kind of document with MS, even powerpoint presentations)
6. email out of the box - of course
7. Surf faster than IE - umm, this depends on your internet connection more than teh browser, so a comparison is hard.
8. network seamlessly - Of course, this is linux.
9. stream music over a network, wired or wireless - yup.
10. easy configuration of anything - nowadays, just about. Some ancient cards might need hard-to-find drivers, but built in drivers cover anything new.
11. easy installation, with advanced settings if need be - oh yeah, Mandrake installer is sooo nice. It's really cool, and has the whole advanced/novice thing.
12. great user interface - KDE is beautiful. And doesn't take up tons of memory with opengl.
13. UNIX underlaying - ditto.
14. command prompt - ditto.
15. best GUI - this is an issue of taste. I can make KDE look like Aqua, but faster and prettier. But again its a matter of taste.
16. run programs just like the Windows side, from the actual developer - i'm not sure what you're saying..
17.change backgrounds on a timed scale - Chuckle-chuckle - only mac users would consider this "functionality"... Maybe a nice little extra, but hardly a reason why OSX is "better" than anything else.
18. run screen savers - yep
19. use printer drivers off of cds (like to see linux do some of these, direct form the manufacturer!) - Umm, ever heard of cups and the Mandrake print manager? It has support for literaly thousands of printers. I have yet to install a printer that required third party software.
20. use a built in start up manager - linux has several of these (GRUB, LILO,...)
21.Fast User Switching - Mandrake can switch in seconds, and even let you log in as someone else within your own user (I assume OSX can as well, since its unix based, but I don't know how far that goes)

OK, here are some of my own:
22. Crash backtracing (without digging through kernel logs)
23. built in server software (Apache)
24. built in ftp software
25. support for running Windows apps (wine)
26. support for developing Windows apps (winedev)
27. advanced image editing (GIMP)
28. Support for all sorts of video formats (mov,mpg,wmv,dv,...)
29. Easy disk burning - two commands can copy a cd to the hard drive and write it to another cd
30. Virtual desktops
31. math/science software (astronomy, math equations, circuit emulation...)
32. Firewall protection
33. Automounting/unmouting (supermounting). Just pop in that usb drive, and yank it out, no need to unmount or drag to the trash or anything. Same thing for cds and floppies.
34. Free upgrades
35. Hundreds of pages of built in documentation
36. The source code to almost any program included in the distro
37. A cool penguin logo

"Who needs to compare them? Mac OS X is a Unix Distro"
No, OSX is an operating system BASED ON THE BSD KERNEL. It is not UNIX. Linux is not UNIX. UNIX was written by Dennis Ritchie and friends for himself. In fact, the name UNIX (from UNICS, based on MULTICS) was called that because at first the system could only support one user: Dennis, or someone with his technical knowledge of the system. The new BSD's and Linux are quite a ways removed from UNIX.


flyfish:
"If a mac is bombing then software was updated incorrectly, important files were deleted or programs were added that are not compatible (ie shareware or beta)"
In linux the admin would just set it up so that the users don't have write access to files that, when deleted, destroy the whole system. And programs that are not compatible just won't run, they wont ruin the OS.

Here is my last point: stop complaining that linux is too hard to learn. If we can do it, you can do it, unless you're ready to admit that Windows and linux users (PC nerds) are far more intelligent that mac users. It's really not that hard. I mean come on, mateybob, if I'm such an idiot, and I can manage linux systems just fine, what does that say about you guys, who complain that its too time consuming and difficult to learn?

Ok, this may be my last post. I'm getting tired of having to filter through the ignorant repliest to find the good stuff, the comments that actually adress my issues. As you have seen, I have revised some of my opinions. I now can see that OSX does have developmental possiblities, as well as the whole "multiple instances" thing. In fact, it seems that it's only mateybob and the like who refuse to consider the validity of the other side's opinions. It's a shame that the intelligent people who obviously use this forum are outweighed and shouted down by the morons.

Well, thanks again for the responses. I still believe that pc's will always dominate macs in the market, and i will always choose a pc over a mac, and I doubt any of you will ever do the opposite, but I'm grateful for the posts (some of them).

-intx13

 

[James L]

...does anyone really believe that was his last post? We can hope I guess.

 

[5300cs]

Makosuke (one of the few intelligent replies to my posts):
...

...

Here is my last point: stop complaining that linux is too hard to learn. If we can do it, you can do it, unless you're ready to admit that Windows and linux users (PC nerds) are far more intelligent that mac users. It's really not that hard.

Well, thanks again for the responses. I still believe that pc's will always dominate macs in the market, and i will always choose a pc over a mac, and I doubt any of you will ever do the opposite, but I'm grateful for the posts (some of them).

-intx13

You know, Makosuke put forth some very intelligent points and you only reponded to those you could (and not very well) then ignored the rest. I'm *still* surprised that you made a snide remark about Mac (not "mac") users matching their clothes to their computers and as if that wasn't bad enough, quoting Maddox, for Christ's sake, which kills your credibility dead on the spot.

I, for one, am glad that you are not thinking of buying a Mac. I'm sure you'd only hate it. Have fun with your Linux box - I used to and still do. Afterall it *is* possible for *some* people to like both platforms...just not everyone.

 

[ChrisH3677]

Intx13, let me just re-state what I said before...

This is what's bugging us dude... you are making claims about Macs/OSX which are being proved wrong - yet you made yourself out to be an expert on Macs by telling us all the things they couldn't do.

And now again for the second time you admit you don't know much about Macs hence your "questions" (which to all and sundry were expressed as irrefutable statements of truth).

Again, the TCO of Linux makes it way short of free except maybe for kids who's time is not yet worth money. And again, as you pointed out, distros are asking for money, but not all are yet making you pay. So "free" in monetary terms, is losing bite, ground, whatever. It's disappearing and except for a few obscure distros, will be extinct in 5 to 10 years. I never said it had happened now - no matter what you want to imply.

I thought I'd check your top distros, and stumbled across a page that you should have read read. It's the Top 10 things wrong with Linuxes... it was written in July 2002... seems Linux was quite buggy back then and what's this?!! Apps crashed but not only that, left rogue processes behind! Never! You told us nothing like that never happened coz, Linux, unlike OSX, has always been rock solid, robust and stable. So it seems, if I compared those Macs in your labs which are running a two year old OS, to Linux of the same vintage... Linux wouldn't look real good... the article is at http://people.trustcommerce.com/~adam/top10/wrong.html

I haven't used Linux for a couple of years, and I remember now how much those rogue processes used to annoy me. Does anyone know if that has that been fixed yet?

The article also says about the infallible Konqueror... "I set up RH7.2 boxes for numerous friends and coworkers, and trying to explain why the primary browser locked up so often was quite difficult. I thought 3.0 would save us, but alas - it has an even worse bug". So it seems Konqueror hasn't always been perfect either!

Don't ever join the school debating team.

To quote one of my favorite films (A Knight's Tale)

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been absolutely, found wanting.

The only thing, intx13, you've been able to prove, is that any computer well managed by someone who knows what they're doing, will *most* of the time be very stable.

And I'd never disagree with that.

PS I do understand some of your frustrations - you do get given the impression from Apple, the Mac press and Mac zealots, that Macs and OSX are perfect. They're not. And I don't think anyone here has argued they are. But then there's nothing in computers that is perfect. Gawd! Even my mobile phone crashes!!! Software is buggy simply because of its complexity - I'm sure as a programmer (like me when I was programming), you hate it when something works, coz then you don't know where to start debugging!

Keep it up with Linux, it's a great OS for where you are at the moment, but don't be surprised if you outgrow it one day. And lay off OSX until you can back up your claims with facts.

 

[ChrisH3677]

BTW Open Office is not 100% compatible with MS Office - it's no where near it. (Even the OSX version of MSO isn't 100% compatible) And OO is also available for OSX (via running X11)

 

[Apple Hobo]

Apple Hobo:
"Linux zealots suck."
Way to be open minded.

You should be the last person to tell me to have an open mind. And you continue to prove my point: ignorant Linux zealots suck. You make it too easy, kid.

 

[ingenious]

What number do I have??!?!

Calebj14, you're number has been called:
"Take some of you're own advice and get off your "high horse!" Baaah.. Linux and Windows doing anything??!?!? Right...... ..."
Maybe you haven't been using linux for a while, buts its been a looong time since any mouse required drudging up drivers off the internet. And with apt and similar programs, its all automated anyway. And when have you EVER seen linux frozen? I've never seen it happen. Ever. And Linux and Windows DO interface nicely, samba works well for sharing.

You're right, I haven't used it in a while, since two summers ago, and it was AFAIK RedHat 7. And it crashed numerous times on us when we were running Gimp or just logging on. You didn't say "interface" before- You said "integrate." I meant integrating with themselves and other OSs. The techs setting up Linux for us to use couldn't get the Windows PCs to share the printer consistently to their Linux network. Linux had trouble (only a little bit) on its own network as well.

1. write programs out of the box - yep
2. digital edit out of the box - nope, you get a point

Oh, you're sooo generous...

3. immune to most virii, etc. - Check, as well as immunization to hack attacks (comes with a built in firewall...a good one)

Someone show him the link for where Linux got more attacks at that place in Britain than Windows or Mac OS X did.

4.F@H - what does this stand for??

Folding @ Home. It works on Linux, Mac OS X and Windows.

5. MICROSOFT office - Comes with the exact equivalent (but OOo is more powerful and free, and can share any kind of document with MS, even powerpoint presentations)

I know about OOo, even used it. But All I was saying was that Mac OS X had something Linux doesn't: an OFFCIAL office.

6. email out of the box - of course
7. Surf faster than IE - umm, this depends on your internet connection more than teh browser, so a comparison is hard.

Meant render speed.

8. network seamlessly - Of course, this is linux.

^^^ I haven't seen that.

9. stream music over a network, wired or wireless - yup.

Really?!??! How?!?! This is kind of interesting to know...

10. easy configuration of anything - nowadays, just about. Some ancient cards might need hard-to-find drivers, but built in drivers cover anything new.

I'm glad to see Linux may someday compete with Windows.

11. easy installation, with advanced settings if need be - oh yeah, Mandrake installer is sooo nice. It's really cool, and has the whole advanced/novice thing.
12. great user interface - KDE is beautiful. And doesn't take up tons of memory with opengl.

I believe you can turn off OpenGL, but why do it? And I meant easy installaion of anything.

13. UNIX underlaying - ditto.
14. command prompt - ditto.
15. best GUI - this is an issue of taste. I can make KDE look like Aqua, but faster and prettier. But again its a matter of taste.

Panther (Mac OS X 10.3) one Best OS of 2004 and was released in 2003!

16. run programs just like the Windows side, from the actual developer - i'm not sure what you're saying..

I mean run Microsoft or Adobe or Macromedia programs.

17.change backgrounds on a timed scale - Chuckle-chuckle - only mac users would consider this "functionality"... Maybe a nice little extra, but hardly a reason why OSX is "better" than anything else.

I find it relaxing.

18. run screen savers - yep
19. use printer drivers off of cds (like to see linux do some of these, direct form the manufacturer!) - Umm, ever heard of cups and the Mandrake print manager? It has support for literaly thousands of printers. I have yet to install a printer that required third party software.

Hmm, didnt know about that. Good for Linux!

20. use a built in start up manager - linux has several of these (GRUB, LILO,...)

Are they built in?????

21.Fast User Switching - Mandrake can switch in seconds, and even let you log in as someone else within your own user (I assume OSX can as well, since its unix based, but I don't know how far that goes)

While leaving the first user logged in?!?

OK, here are some of my own:
22. Crash backtracing (without digging through kernel logs)

Someone else answer this one... I ususally don't dig that deep....

23. built in server software (Apache)
24. built in ftp software
25. support for running Windows apps (wine)
26. support for developing Windows apps (winedev)
27. advanced image editing (GIMP)
28. Support for all sorts of video formats (mov,mpg,wmv,dv,...)
29. Easy disk burning - two commands can copy a cd to the hard drive and write it to another cd
30. Virtual desktops
31. math/science software (astronomy, math equations, circuit emulation...)
32. Firewall protection
33. Automounting/unmouting (supermounting). Just pop in that usb drive, and yank it out, no need to unmount or drag to the trash or anything. Same thing for cds and floppies.
34. Free upgrades
35. Hundreds of pages of built in documentation
36. The source code to almost any program included in the distro
37. A cool penguin logo

23. Apache.
24. Finder
25. VPC
26. don't know dont program
27. Photoshop or others
28. QT, WMP, RealPlayer
29. Finder
30. VPC
31. obviously
33. works for somethings..... not sure why Mac OS X has you drag it to the trash....
34. free point upgrades (including support from manufacturer)
35. um, yea.
36. if you're not developing who needs it? anyway, the kernel code is available off of developer.apple.com
37. Right..... that's really functionality, but if you install linux and use the startup manager,... the penguin is there.

No, OSX is an operating system BASED ON THE BSD KERNEL. It is not UNIX.

Read up on your facts!

Linux is not UNIX. UNIX was written by Dennis Ritchie and friends for himself. In fact, the name UNIX (from UNICS, based on MULTICS) was called that because at first the system could only support one user: Dennis, or someone with his technical knowledge of the system.

cool. i didnt know that.

The new BSD's and Linux are quite a ways removed from UNIX.

Just changed.

In linux the admin would just set it up so that the users don't have write access to files that, when deleted, destroy the whole system. And programs that are not compatible just won't run, they wont ruin the OS.

Same in OS X.

Here is my last point: stop complaining that linux is too hard to learn. If we can do it, you can do it, unless you're ready to admit that Windows and linux users (PC nerds) are far more intelligent that mac users. It's really not that hard. I mean come on, mateybob, if I'm such an idiot, and I can manage linux systems just fine, what does that say about you guys, who complain that its too time consuming and difficult to learn?

Oh, yea... a week is easy to learn... Right. It takes me an hour at the most to install and set up a new mac. Less if I don't have to install OS X. To say that Mac users (who per capita are more educated than other OS users... its in a study) are dumber than other OS users is just plain stupid and immature. I didn't say you were an idiot, just misinformed. You spend a week of your time on it and call it easy. Some of us have other things to do in our lives than mess around with kernel codes....

Ok, this may be my last post. I'm getting tired of having to filter through the ignorant repliest to find the good stuff, the comments that actually adress my issues. As you have seen, I have revised some of my opinions. I now can see that OSX does have developmental possiblities, as well as the whole "multiple instances" thing. In fact, it seems that it's only mateybob and the like who refuse to consider the validity of the other side's opinions. It's a shame that the intelligent people who obviously use this forum are outweighed and shouted down by the morons.

Please live up to your own standards. Some of this post was very ingnorant and unitelligent. Thanks for your posts, though. I learned much more about Linux. Hope your views change about OS X,the world's best OS.

 

[quagmire]

This thread is turning into a flame war. Intx13, you are the true moron. We respect you for using linux/windows. We don't respect you calling us morons. You are an expert on your OS prefrence and we are experts on our OS. So stop coming by and trying to convert us to linux by saying you know everything about OS X. Most of your points were corrected. I can say teachers screw up with the computers which cause them to freeze. OS X and windows are stable in crash areas without any 3rd party software screwing up the OS. So you can take your big moron ass out of these forums and leave us alone!!!

 

[Danrose1977]

This thread is turning into a flame war. Intx13, you are the true moron.

Thats not fair really... and is the kind of comment that does degrade the conversation. The truth is that Intx13 is just a high school kid... very rarely do they have a wide perspective on situations, that tends to come from the mixed experiences gained after school in what those over twenty refer to as real life.

I was a bit upset that Intx13 didn't take a pop at any of my points... and I'm also suprised that he hasn't dwelled on price, as thats another area on which I believe we can "big up" the mac scene. The truth is that for the quality of machine you get from Apple the price is excellent value!!!

 

[tamara6]

OK, here are some of my own:
22. Crash backtracing (without digging through kernel logs)
23. built in server software (Apache)
24. built in ftp software
25. support for running Windows apps (wine)
26. support for developing Windows apps (winedev)
27. advanced image editing (GIMP)
28. Support for all sorts of video formats (mov,mpg,wmv,dv,...)
29. Easy disk burning - two commands can copy a cd to the hard drive and write it to another cd
30. Virtual desktops
31. math/science software (astronomy, math equations, circuit emulation...)
32. Firewall protection
33. Automounting/unmouting (supermounting). Just pop in that usb drive, and yank it out, no need to unmount or drag to the trash or anything. Same thing for cds and floppies.
34. Free upgrades
35. Hundreds of pages of built in documentation
36. The source code to almost any program included in the distro
37. A cool penguin logo

Others have answered most of these, so I won't repeat.
#26 - out of the box, no you can't develop for Windows. But there are 3rd party development environments that *do* allow you to develop for both Windows or Linux. And I assume you can do the same under Virtual PC, but I have not tried that.

#31 - There are an awful lot of Astronomy applications for OS X. It depends on what you mean. There are the consumer oriented home planetarium type programs and the kind that will control your telescope (and the ccd camera you have hooked up to your telescope). At least one university actually runs a lab that allows students to make observations using a remote telescope (observation requests are done online - the web server is a Mac, the observation requests are processed by a Mac, the telescope is run by a different Mac, and analysis of the telescopic images is done on Macs in a lab room).

As for math equations - do you mean writing documents with math equations? Word with equation editor will do that, or you can use one of the many latex packages that are available (and those are free).

If you mean evaluating mathematical equations, there are several applications that do that, too. Mathematica and MatLab jump to mind quickly. Actually, you'd find that OS X is very popular among theoretical physicists - both because it is so easy to program and because these third party tools are available.

I have been told that OS X is also popular among biologists and other scientists working in the life sciences, but I have no actual experience in this area.

#35 We have something called "Help" which is basically documentation and help files for many, many applications (all of Apple's applications, and most 3rd parties include help files with their apps as well). Some help files are actually online and not on the hard drive, but they are easily accessible. For the more unixy inclined, there are also MAN pages.

Finally, I'd like to address this thing that you've said twice already - something about you setting up your system in only a week. I'm sure that is an impressive feat. And you seem to imply that a more advanced user than yourself could do it even faster. But Macs have been marketed for a long time now as being the most easy to set up computer out there. Just pull it out of a box, plug it in, attach a monitor and there you go. So your comments sound a little funny to us. It's not that we're incapable of doing a more complicated set-up. It is just that we don't need to. And even the least technical among us can set up a Mac in less than an hour. Given that the current Mac OS runs on a unix-like base (I won't get into whether or not BSD is really unix), I think that is pretty impressive. What you do in a week, we do in an hour. Wow.

 

[Elmy]

internet explorer and konquerer are two of the worst browsers out there..

As a long time Gentoo Linux user, and soon to be a Mac OS X user with a nice new powerbook, I really couldn't let this one slide...

Konqueror is a very good browser, and the rendering core of Safari IS actually the KDE Web Rendering KPart. My personal favourite is Firebird, the main advantages I can see are the incredible range of extensions and the fact its become the second standard behind IE - and fortuanately its a proper W3C standard.

Mac OS X is extremely powerful from what I have seen of it, user friendly interface on top of a very solid UNIX base, including X11. What more could you ask for? And this is coming from a hardcore Linux user

The only thing I prefer about Linux is the extreme customisation you can do with it, OS X doesn't even begin to compare to this really. Theres nothing quite like setting up Gentoo and knowing exactly every bit of software and setting right down to the base OS Level, and being able to change them within plan text files. But from this flexibility (note; NOT power, they are different things) unfortuanately brings a lot of complexity as well. Its basically a tradeoff in my eyes. I love using my Linux system, its ultra-stable and for me, very very usable.

I certainly recognise though that people who want to do hardcore multimedia work in areas such as video and audio production Linux is NOT the way to go at the moment. It will be at least 3 years before it is ready for even medium weight work. I would probably never run Gentoo if my non-computer related work depended on it, I just wouldn't have the time to maintain it. Its a hobby for me really.

If I carry on getting on with OS X I will probably be relegating Linux to server duties. Its great having an old pentium box on router duties and maybe another as a print/ssh/download server sitting in a cupboard.

 

[Macmaniac]

First of all I am going to give a pat on the back to everyone who decided to remain civil during this thread. As for those of you who chose to call each other morons, it is unnecessary.

I leave you with two quotes from a very old and wise geek

Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.

Who's more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?

 

[ChrisH3677]

just will highlight a few...

1. write programs out of the box... yep - in gui or terminal

7. Surf faster than IE.... Safari is faster but Opera is the fastest browser and is available for Linux and OSX among others

10. Easy config of anything.... In Linux, it depends on your proficiency and distro. eg Linspire would be a better choice than even Mandrake for novices. And I notice you say "built in drivers cover anything new" so those PCs you find in the trash, you'd have to search the 'net for drivers... that's not easy for newbies esp if it's an xwindows video card driver they need.

11. Easy installation, with advanced settings... XCode tools & X11 are optional the rest is already there. Mandrake (a user-friendly distro...) protects the novice from all those "do anythings" but then, they can't "do anything", so "anything" is just for the advanced user - just like Xcode is.

17.change backgrounds on a timed scale... I'm sure if you looked, you'd find something in Linux that did this. Linux was the first OS I saw that had animated backgrounds (was it xfish? or xsnow? can't remember now, it's a few years ago)

23. built in server software (Apache)... As does OSX. If you're the OSX you originally made yourself out to be, you'd definitely know this. A tinkerer like you would have quickly discovered it in the "Sharing" options in System Preferences.

25. support for running Windows apps (wine)... On OSx, you can run Windows apps via DarWINE, VPC, RDP, ICA (these last 2 talk to Windows Terminal Server and Citrix Server) BTW Do apps running in WINE support OLE? So if I've got Word and Excel running in WINE, can they talk to each other as seamlessly as in Windows? or as in Windows in VPC?

26. support for developing Windows apps (winedev)... This let's you develop Windows apps? I doubt it. If you wanted to develop Windows apps, surely you'd run you coding tool of choice under WINE. I'd say winedev lets you develop WINE further so it can support more Windows apps and be more compatible.

27. advanced image editing (GIMP)... GIMP is available for OSX (runs in X11) and like Linux, there's plenty of other options including native Photshop.

30. Virtual desktops... Windows, Liunx and Mac all provide this option thru third party products. I've seen various ones under each platform, but the best one by far is an OSX one, "Desktop Manager" (and it's worked flawlessly for me - not bad for an alpha release!)

31. math/science software (astronomy, math equations, circuit emulation...)... plenty out there for both OSX and X11 in OSX

32. Firewall protection... same answer as 23.

33. Automounting/unmouting (supermounting). Just pop in that usb drive, and yank it out, no need to unmount or drag to the trash or anything. Same thing for cds and floppies..... Wha??? So your saying... that when you rip-out that removable media... that Linux magically, faster than you can pull, detects the beginning of the removal so closes all open files on it, flushes any database caches to it, uses AI to decide if you want to "Save" or lose any changes... and all in a nanosecond. I can pull USB drives out too, without using eject but as a wise user, I'd make sure i closed any open files on it first - that's just plain common sense, and I'm sure you do the same thing. And I'm sure you practice the same for floppies and CDs.
Note: OSX has automounting but I still can't see the value in auto-unmounting.

36. The source code to almost any program included in the distro...ah yes, my Mum really needs that! The code included in the distros are open-source. Source code is available for all open-source software in OSX too. It's easily available on the net - the same place you download your distros (with their source included) from.


I am a Linux fan. I tried everything over the last three years to get more of it into my workplace (currently only have a firewall and squid proxy). We did try setting up a Lotus Domino server which worked ok, and a print server which had all sorts of issues, even after Samba 3 was released. I'm always on the outlook for opportunities to ditch Windows, but since switching to Macs, they would be my first choice because the "anythings" you want top do, just always seem easier to do.

When I replace my kid's PC next week with a 4yo iMac (it still amazes me Panther works so well on such an old machine), I will rebuild the PC as a Linux box and have lots of fun experimenting with it (tho late at night which is the only time my time is free).

 

[ChrisH3677]

First of all I am going to give a pat on the back to everyone who decided to remain civil during this thread. As for those of you who chose to call each other morons, it is unnecessary.

I leave you with two quotes from a very old and wise geek

Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.

Who's more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?

thanks MM. We did get sucked in to his ignorance but I'd like to add another quote of my own...

Stupidity is not contagious, but ignorance is

which is why we jumped on him - we didn't like the idea of him spreading his misinformed views as facts - and i do apologize to him if my bouts of sarcasm were taken in the same way as being called a moron.

 

[intx13]

Not quite dead yet

Okay, so I wanted to say a few more things (can any topic truly be discussed to a close?)

"quoting Maddox, for Christ's sake, which kills your credibility dead on the spot."
sorry to offend you

"Wha??? So your saying... that when you rip-out that removable media... that Linux magically, faster than you can pull, detects the beginning of the removal so closes all open files on it, flushes any database caches to it, uses AI to decide if you want to "Save" or lose any changes... and all in a nanosecond. I can pull USB drives out too, without using eject but as a wise user, I'd make sure i closed any open files on it first - that's just plain common sense, and I'm sure you do the same thing. And I'm sure you practice the same for floppies and CDs. "
Not quite. It's called supermounting, and basically (I'm not real sure of this, so don't jump down my throat if I'm not 100% right) it only syncs or flushes the drive when a task requests access to it. So as soon as you pop in the drive, Linux sees it and mounts it. Then you open up a file manager window there, and the drive is flushed and read. When you're done, and you yank the drive, the drive is unmounted. Yanking mounted drives only hurts in two situations:
1. The drive is still mounted (if you're using a traditional mount method)
2. The drive is in the middle of a sync
Supermounting only does syncing at certain times, when its requested, so as long as you don't pull it when a file is the midst of saving, you're good. It's REALLY nice, I don't know why other OS's don't do it.

"What you do in a week, we do in an hour."
What I do in a week can stand as a 486DX server for months without a reboot.

Which mentiones another fact (and this goes against Windows as well). Linux can be put on any ancient piece of crap machine and run just fine. CAse in point, I run (I just did the install today) Mandrake 10.0 on a 665Mhz Duron. I can run hundreds of programs on it without a loss in speed. kernel 2.6.# is nice and quick. So why is it that Windows and OSX can't run on ancient (comparitively) hardware? I mean come on, Longhorn (which will rock anyway) needs more ram than some of my comptuers have hard drive space!

"We don't respect you calling us morons"
ACtually, I only refered to a few choice characters with that term. Sorry to hurt anyones feelings..

"While leaving the first user logged in?!?"
Yes, I assume you can do the same in OSX. You grab a terminal, and su to a different user. Then you (in linux) start up konqueror or something. Inside that manager, you are the other user. Any programs you run are run as the other user. It's pretty nice, but its nothing new.

"ignorant Linux zealots suck. You make it too easy, kid."
I laughed when I read this. Don't walk too near Slashdot, dude, or you could get a stuffed penguin thrown at you

"Don't ever join the school debating team."
Too late. I guess I should return those awards I won

Well, sorry to disappoint those who don't like my views, but I posted again. Thanks for all the input guys and gals.

 

[DavidLeblond]

Don't walk too near Slashdot, dude, or you could get a stuffed penguin thrown at you

Um, apple.slashdot.org, dumbass.

 

[ChrisH3677]

Not quite. It's called supermounting, and basically (I'm not real sure of this, so don't jump down my throat if I'm not 100% right) it only syncs or flushes the drive when a task requests access to it. So as soon as you pop in the drive, Linux sees it and mounts it. Then you open up a file manager window there, and the drive is flushed and read. When you're done, and you yank the drive, the drive is unmounted. Yanking mounted drives only hurts in two situations:
1. The drive is still mounted (if you're using a traditional mount method)
2. The drive is in the middle of a sync
Supermounting only does syncing at certain times, when its requested, so as long as you don't pull it when a file is the midst of saving, you're good. It's REALLY nice, I don't know why other OS's don't do it.

I look forward to experimenting with that when I build the Linux box.

"What you do in a week, we do in an hour."
What I do in a week can stand as a 486DX server for months without a reboot.

From my personal experience, Linux with a GUI runs crap on a 486DX. So obviously some of your arguments about Linux don't apply to this machine.

Which mentiones another fact (and this goes against Windows as well). Linux can be put on any ancient piece of crap machine and run just fine. Case in point, I run (I just did the install today) Mandrake 10.0 on a 665Mhz Duron. I can run hundreds of programs on it without a loss in speed. kernel 2.6.# is nice and quick. So why is it that Windows and OSX can't run on ancient (comparitively) hardware?

You didn't read my post. The absolute latest version of OSX runs fine on my wife's 4yo laptop (which would be about the same age as your 665Mhz Duron)
On the other hand, I gave up on XP last year on a similarly aged PC. It couldn't handle it.
I'll be interested to see how Mandrake 10 runs on my 6yo, 366Mhz PC...

I mean come on, Longhorn... ...needs more ram than some of my comptuers have hard drive space!

"Don't ever join the school debating team."
Too late. I guess I should return those awards I won

So why didn't you use the same debating skills that won you those awards when you came on here? Instead you came on with fallacies, uninformed guesses, subjectiveness, lack of knowledge and research of your chosen topic (i.e. "What OSX can and cannot do"), ignoring other's key arguments, personal attacks (your very first post contained personal jibe in suggesting we match our clothes to our computers) etc.

So, again, next time, use those debating skills you say you have and you'd probably get a very different response.

 

[Danrose1977]

What I do in a week can stand as a 486DX server for months without a reboot.

That is a good point.... I just checked my Linux boxes at work, all they do is run SNORT all day and night. Currently they have been up for 842 days! (No need to do any updates to the systems as they are on internal network and heavily firewalled).

Having said that my iBook hasn't been rebooted in a month.... she just takes a nap now and then.

I was wondering whether intx13 would be willing to admit that he can see that OSX does work for a whole bunch of people and that it is neither inferior or superior... just different! I ask this as it would clear up the debate and stop it being so agressive, I also wish Mac people would agree the same thing about other OS'es!