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First, how robust will those web-style applications be, particularly when accessing the hardware features of the Pre? Personally, I think the Pre's development choices are one reason they can afford to multitask so freely, but then again - we haven't seen the battery life yet. I have apps on my iPhone which drain the battery within hours, I'd hate to have them running in the background.

Second, the iPod touch greatly multiplies the target audience for iPhone developers. Given that the Pre is on Sprint, I'm not sure what kind of market penetration the Pre will initially see. Even if it matches the iPhone in sales each quarter, the existing iPhone user base along with the iPod touch user base makes the iPhone a much more profitable target.

Third, anyone who's interested in selling mobile applications to people ready to pay can learn Obj-C pretty quickly.

I think the great thing about the Pre is that you can run them, or close them. I'm sure there are certain apps you wouldn't run if you knew it was going to be a long night without a charge, and apps you'd gladly run all day if you were going to have a chance to charge.

The point is that you have a choice, which is something that Apple doesn't give you.

I think the battery life is going to be weak (personal opinion) but I think that's why they have the cool charger, making it easier to charge, and the removeable battery. As much as people will complain about having to remember to charge another battery (yea, real hard) I think it's great.

Use one battery at work while fully multi-tasking, and pop a new one in before going out for the night.
 
I think the great thing about the Pre is that you can run them, or close them. I'm sure there are certain apps you wouldn't run if you knew it was going to be a long night without a charge, and apps you'd gladly run all day if you were going to have a chance to charge.

I keep hearing about this multitasking of the Pre, but haven't seen a sign of anything that shows its capabilities.

The way the Pre SDK (Mojo) is currently limited to Javascript and a few hardware hooks, I'm interested to see if I'd even care about multitasking any Pre apps. What Palm's shown multitasked so far isn't anything impressive. Basically, everything so far is a static "web page" like application which is no more sophisticated than switching tabs on Mobile Safari (it even has the same "cards" appearance). Likewise, Palm's developer kit appears to be closer to Apple's original web-based application limitations than Apple's 3.0 SDK capabilities.

The latest email I received from Palm regarding the Pre showed two apps.

Pre2Apps.png


Even with the flight app keeping you up to date on delays, that's not impressive multitasking. In fact, if Apple's notification server does what they say it can do, an iPhone app could do this more efficiently - from the ESPN demo Apple showed they plan for the notification server to be pretty robust.

Perhaps you've seen a video that I missed and could point me toward something interesting being multitasked on the Pre.

I think the battery life is going to be weak (personal opinion) but I think that's why they have the cool charger, making it easier to charge, and the removeable battery. As much as people will complain about having to remember to charge another battery (yea, real hard) I think it's great.

Use one battery at work while fully multi-tasking, and pop a new one in before going out for the night.

The beauty of the internet is the amount of noise a small group can generate. Apple's decision to build in the battery has upset a certain small group of people, even some of those who've never used a second battery have jumped on board because it seems like a valid complaint. But the fact of the matter is most people never swap batteries regularly with a phone or a laptop.

And that cool charger is an additional cost which also requires a different Pre battery cover at an additional cost. I'm guessing over $50 total, easy.
 
Third, anyone who's interested in selling mobile applications to people ready to pay can learn Obj-C pretty quickly.

Obj-C is wicked easy. I learned to program in Perl and only know a bit of C and Javascript, but I built some basic iPhone apps over a few weekends without any trouble. For anyone who has a CS major, programming in Obj-C is not even an issue. The bigger issue is having access to a Mac to run Xcode.
 
The beauty of the internet is the amount of noise a small group can generate. Apple's decision to build in the battery has upset a certain small group of people, even some of those who've never used a second battery have jumped on board because it seems like a valid complaint. But the fact of the matter is most people never swap batteries regularly with a phone or a laptop.

And that cool charger is an additional cost which also requires a different Pre battery cover at an additional cost. I'm guessing over $50 total, easy.

You can bet there's always a business strategy behind making certain things not user-replacable. When the time comes when your battery is not holding its charge as before, you start thinking about getting a new battery. But then you remember that you have to send it in to Apple for a fee. That can feel a bit cumbersome. Some of these people then consider the alternative instead, why not buy a new phone? And that means more money to Apple.

And why shouldn't I have the option to swap batteries myself whenever I want? How could it hurt? There are certainly situations where it would help people. Apple has never been about giving the customer options. And Apple fans somehow always twist the arguments around to make it sound that whatever Apple is doing is fine.
 
And why shouldn't I have the option to swap batteries myself whenever I want? How could it hurt? There are certainly situations where it would help people. Apple has never been about giving the customer options. And Apple fans somehow always twist the arguments around to make it sound that whatever Apple is doing is fine.

Ahh, so there are options - just not from Apple.

And the same way you have an opinion, others do too. I'm not twisting the argument any more than you are, I just prefer Apple's design decision. Those who don't should find other devices.

And it appears at least acceptable for 20 million people.

I suspect the new iphone battery will be easier and cheaper to replace much like the 17" Macbook Pro's battery. It's the same price as Apple's standard laptop batteries and a few hour turn around - hardly the cumbersome experience you claim drives Apple's business strategy.
 
Even with the flight app keeping you up to date on delays, that's not impressive multitasking. In fact, if Apple's notification server does what they say it can do, an iPhone app could do this more efficiently - from the ESPN demo Apple showed they plan for the notification server to be pretty robust.

The enormous difference is that anyone with a good knowledge of Javascript and DHTML should be able to write the background flight app for the Pre.

To duplicate that simple feat on the iPhone, an developer would have to:

1) Own a Mac to use the SDK. Contract a server farm to handle thousands of simultaneous users' requests. Register it all with Apple. Probably want to buy SSL certificates as well, so user data isn't compromised.

2) Write a simple front-end iPhone application in Objective-C. It connects to your server which will store the desired flight.

3) Write the real application on the server in a server-side scripting language, such as Java, ASP, Cold Fusion, Ruby, etc. While you're at it, be sure you know how to set up a database to store user requests.

The server application will be required to register users, accept their flight data, then poll the airlines for flight changes for each user.

If a change occurs, the server must send a tiny notification to Apple's servers, which then pops up on the iPhone. Then the user will probably want to open the app (which has to again communicate with the server) and see what happened and/or reset the alert.

Since there's no notification acknowledgement from Apple's servers, a lost note is simply lost, without your server knowing it. So you'd probably better keep pinging the poor user until they manually open your app and let your server know they got it.

That's a lot of knowledge, coding, administration, communication, user interaction and money... all to duplicate a simple background app on any other phone.
 
The enormous difference is that anyone with a good knowledge of Javascript and DHTML should be able to write the background flight app for the Pre.

To duplicate that simple feat on the iPhone, an developer would have to:

<SNIP> (effectively do lots more things)
That's a lot of knowledge, coding, administration, communication, user interaction and money... all to duplicate a simple background app on any other phone.

Do this in any way stop someone from making a web app to do the same thing for the iPhone?

If the barrier is much higher for a "proper" app on the iPhone - doesn't that in a way make it more liekly it will be done well? / done by someone who really has an incentive to make a functional useful app (that would sell)?
 
I don't know what all of the hype about the Pre is about....it looks like a complete carbon copy of the iPhone with snazzier transitions and visuals. We all already have the Pre.
 
I don't know what all of the hype about the Pre is about....it looks like a complete carbon copy of the iPhone with snazzier transitions and visuals. We all already have the Pre.


Not to mention we are comparing it to the iPhone 3G....for all we know, Apple will release a new device to take on the Pre that's more advance than the 3G and totally crushes the Pre. Time can only tell. I listen to Stern everyday and I know he wants a new phone. He does not like the iPhone keyboard and he's played with the G1. Getting his hands on the Pre will deliver a good review.
 
Do this in any way stop someone from making a web app to do the same thing for the iPhone?

Yes. First, people have to stop thinking of Pre apps as "web apps".

Phone web apps are just web pages on a remote server. The Pre uses local apps that just happen to be written in Javascript instead of Objective-C. (Which means millions more potential programmers.)

If Apple wanted, they could've allowed local web pages akin to the Pre apps to exist. But Apple doesn't want anyone to access their local file system.

Perhaps Apple will change since Microsoft has also announced that they will be supporting local widgets written in JS/DHTML on WinMo.

If the barrier is much higher for a "proper" app on the iPhone - doesn't that in a way make it more liekly it will be done well? / done by someone who really has an incentive to make a functional useful app (that would sell)?

It means there'll be far fewer background apps available. And those that do come out will need to either charge subscriptions or show ads.
 
You can bet there's always a business strategy behind making certain things not user-replacable. When the time comes when your battery is not holding its charge as before, you start thinking about getting a new battery. But then you remember that you have to send it in to Apple for a fee. That can feel a bit cumbersome. Some of these people then consider the alternative instead, why not buy a new phone? And that means more money to Apple.

And why shouldn't I have the option to swap batteries myself whenever I want? How could it hurt? There are certainly situations where it would help people. Apple has never been about giving the customer options. And Apple fans somehow always twist the arguments around to make it sound that whatever Apple is doing is fine.

If people cared so much about replaceable batteries, they wouldn't have bought so many iphones or ipods. None of those come with replace batteries and Apple have sold in excess of hundreds of millions of those, so much for replaceable batteries. Most people don't go out and buy additional batteries for their phones and by the time the battery even dies they're in for a new phone anyways.
 
The enormous difference is that anyone with a good knowledge of Javascript and DHTML should be able to write the background flight app for the Pre.

To duplicate that simple feat on the iPhone, an developer would have to:

<SNIP> (effectively do lots more things)
That's a lot of knowledge, coding, administration, communication, user interaction and money... all to duplicate a simple background app on any other phone.

To my first point, I said that a program that polls a server (or parses a website) periodically for data is not an impressive show of multitasking prowess - it's a simple background app being given it's clock cycles. In fact, in this case repeated polling and parsing of unchanged information on the client side is a perfect example of Apple's claim of typical mobile background task inefficiency. On the other hand, if the application is not polling and parsing with javascript and DHTML then the developer already has the knowledge and resources you claim an iPhone developer would need.

As an example, say that I have to pick up a client this evening at 8PM and at the beginning of my work day I tell each device that I want flight change information sent to me:

The iPhone will receive updates only when and if it changes and assuming I already receive notifications for another application, there is no extra drain on the phone.

The Pre will check the information at set intervals via polls to a website (unless again the developer already has the server knowledge and resources required by iPhone developers) whether it's changed or not. There are repeated data connections and then parsing of that data throughout the day. The more timely the information, the more of a drain on the phone.

If I have other information I'm watching that day, say a limit notification on AAPL and PALM stock, the iPhone requires no extra processing. But again, the more timely the information (more important here), the more of a drain on the Pre.

Also, on the Pre I now have two extra cards to flip through when I'm changing tasks and if I accidentally close one - my updates are gone.

On the iPhone, I can leave those updates running indefinitely with no hit in performance. When the flight comes and goes with no delays, the developer's server will drop the task. And for the stocks, two months later when PALM bottoms out, I'll be alerted.

But, I never said it was easier for the developer. Although, for many applications that have random communications, the developer would have a server and the knowledge anyway - unless you plan on repeatedly polling for a player's move in a chess or backgammon game that might not occur for days. That is, if I haven't already closed the game's card.

In the end, there are 20 million users and a few thousand developers. I say put the burden on good developers, not the users and their device. If there is a need for the information, an application will be written. And given the extra knowledge needed it will probably be well written and inherently more efficient on an iPhone.

Finally, I see a fairly lucrative business for a entrepreneur who can provide the needed servers for smaller application developers wanting to provide notification services for their applications.
 
I think the great thing about the Pre is that you can run them, or close them. I'm sure there are certain apps you wouldn't run if you knew it was going to be a long night without a charge, and apps you'd gladly run all day if you were going to have a chance to charge.

The point is that you have a choice, which is something that Apple doesn't give you.

I think the battery life is going to be weak (personal opinion) but I think that's why they have the cool charger, making it easier to charge, and the removeable battery. As much as people will complain about having to remember to charge another battery (yea, real hard) I think it's great.

Use one battery at work while fully multi-tasking, and pop a new one in before going out for the night.

I completely agree with this assessment. The iPhone 3G battery was awful when it was first released. I lived with it, but I prefer having a choice if I want to run a background app such as music. I wish Apple gave us the choice.
 
If people cared so much about replaceable batteries, they wouldn't have bought so many iphones or ipods. None of those come with replace batteries and Apple have sold in excess of hundreds of millions of those, so much for replaceable batteries. Most people don't go out and buy additional batteries for their phones and by the time the battery even dies they're in for a new phone anyways.

But those devices usually give you 10-15 hours. The iPhone 3G gives me maybe 4-5 hours if I am using 3G and/or phone calls. Again, the point is that you have the choice to use an extra battery. I think all 3G devices should have a removable battery because 3G seems to drain the battery awfully quickly.
 
But those devices usually give you 10-15 hours. The iPhone 3G gives me maybe 4-5 hours if I am using 3G and/or phone calls. Again, the point is that you have the choice to use an extra battery. I think all 3G devices should have a removable battery because 3G seems to drain the battery awfully quickly.

Please show me which phone gives 10 to 15 hours with heavy usage. My iphone 3g can last me the whole day, even 2 days without charging, it depends on my usage, but if I decide to browse the internet the whole day and use the apps, I'll struggle to get 5 hours.
 
But those devices usually give you 10-15 hours. The iPhone 3G gives me maybe 4-5 hours if I am using 3G and/or phone calls. Again, the point is that you have the choice to use an extra battery. I think all 3G devices should have a removable battery because 3G seems to drain the battery awfully quickly.

Every iPhone user has the choice to use an extra battery. You don't need a removable battery to have extra batteries that can work with the iPhone. There are 2 different threads there - one about making batteries removable, so another one can be added, and one thread about being able to have attachments to effectively extend the capacity of the phone's battery.
 
Please show me which phone gives 10 to 15 hours with heavy usage. My iphone 3g can last me the whole day, even 2 days without charging, it depends on my usage, but if I decide to browse the internet the whole day and use the apps, I'll struggle to get 5 hours.

I was referring to the iPods giving 10-15 hours. The iPhones that I have owned barely get 5 hours with heavy use.
 
I was referring to the iPods giving 10-15 hours. The iPhones that I have owned barely get 5 hours with heavy use.

Same here, depends how you use it though, sometimes it even last me 2 days but that's just with texting and a small amount of phone calls.
 
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