i have to say again that i have a very decent light and back drop set up. i still see spills, even noise in the DSLR shoot out link i posted, seems like the canon af100 might be the way to go since you get a decent video camera, nice sensor and choice of lens's, but i have to admit i am not a pro photographer or film maker, like i never went to school, i just have some friends over the last 15 years who are and sat in their shoots, i am more of a audio/video editor who wants to get more into shooting so my footage has more less what i am after., i did own several cameras during the hi 8 times and worked in TV news rooms as an editor between the Beta SP to hi 8 momentum., after that i went to AVID, AE, Premiere
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Need help choosing a camera (slr?) for green screen
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i have to say again that i have a very decent light and back drop set up. i still see spills, even noise in the DSLR shoot out link i posted, seems like the canon af100 might be the way to go since you get a decent video camera, nice sensor and choice of lens's, but i have to admit i am not a pro photographer or film maker, like i never went to school, i just have some friends over the last 15 years who are and sat in their shoots, i am more of a audio/video editor who wants to get more into shooting so my footage has more less what i am after., i did own several cameras during the hi 8 times and worked in TV news rooms as an editor between the Beta SP to hi 8 momentum., after that i went to AVID, AE, Premiere
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I'd get a Panasonic Gh2 and use the 176MB avcintra hacked codec then convert to Prores HQ. probably the best you can do besides buying a expensive
Camera that can do 4:2:2.
I'd get a Panasonic Gh2 and use the 176MB avcintra hacked codec then convert to Prores HQ. probably the best you can do besides buying a expensive
Camera that can do 4:2:2.
i was actually impressed by the keys they got from the shootout. this is also probably the best technical comparison your going to find.
dslr's did receive a lot of hype, but some of that is well deserved. if the emphasis is on image quality video camera's don't have the sensor size to compete until your in the 10k and up range.
As someone else observed, dslr's are not run and gun, but neither is green screen. in my opinion dslr's are perfect for studio work as it plays to the strength of the equipment. for studio work the 5dii edges out the competition for me because the sensor size lets you get closer for the same framing and space is often an issue.
for run and gun the xf100 is definitely a better choice.
dslr's did receive a lot of hype, but some of that is well deserved. if the emphasis is on image quality video camera's don't have the sensor size to compete until your in the 10k and up range.
As someone else observed, dslr's are not run and gun, but neither is green screen. in my opinion dslr's are perfect for studio work as it plays to the strength of the equipment. for studio work the 5dii edges out the competition for me because the sensor size lets you get closer for the same framing and space is often an issue.
for run and gun the xf100 is definitely a better choice.
weird, anyone else compare the Panasonic GH2 with other dslrs on green screen tests, i see no videos online that actually show any comparisons
actually i like all of them as a matter of fact, i am sure you do too lol
I just want to shoot clean crisp green screen 4:2:2 camera or led light kit, whatever is guaranteed to work with out compromising the fact that i also use an imac but can get a mac pro if the best set up price ration is a PCI card that captures etc, maybe what i want is not a camera but a led light chroma kit., but i never tried them or found anyone online who did and made a video to confirm this, only the adverts for the product.
That LED thing is that specialized and expensive that you won't find many of the usual "unpacking and reviewing" youTube clips from the usual 13 year olds (cliché used for rhetoric). I remember seeing one a while ago (can't remember where). It seems to work pretty well if the distance between the light source and the backdrop is not too far.
However, if spill is your biggest problem, you should look into refining your lighting techniques, not necessarily the technology.
Capture cards? No need for Mac Pro anymore. Matrox, Decklink, AJA have all Thunderbolt equipped cards now, or you can use one of them external recorders like the Atomos Ninja (not sure if that does 4:2:2 though). You can even use MBPs with RAID cluster connected for capturing nowadays.
However, if spill is your biggest problem, you should look into refining your lighting techniques, not necessarily the technology.
Capture cards? No need for Mac Pro anymore. Matrox, Decklink, AJA have all Thunderbolt equipped cards now, or you can use one of them external recorders like the Atomos Ninja (not sure if that does 4:2:2 though). You can even use MBPs with RAID cluster connected for capturing nowadays.
from the light tests i did my greenscreen is very well lit, i tried several compact cameras, even an iPad2, iPhone 4s, a Camcorder and a T2, still need that 4.2.2, i checked a bit on the Panasonic gh2, does it really do 4.2.2 or just fits those ratios, is its sensor that big as to the Canon 7d? anyone know?
thanks
thanks
The Panasonic is a 4:3 camera, with the sensor smaller than Canon's APC, but doesn't have to do anything with its green screen "capabilities". Standard output is, as with any other DSLR, 4:2:0 or 4:2:1. I don't think the color sampling has as much to with green screen as the codec (in regards to compression) the cam era gives you. That's why I think that a DSLR or any other AVCHD cam is not the best for keying shots.
Yet, you still have spills. That means your talent is not well lit, or the green screen is not well flagged off.
The Panasonic is a 4:3 camera, with the sensor smaller than Canon's APC, but doesn't have to do anything with its green screen "capabilities". Standard output is, as with any other DSLR, 4:2:0 or 4:2:1. I don't think the color sampling has as much to with green screen as the codec (in regards to compression) the cam era gives you. That's why I think that a DSLR or any other AVCHD cam is not the best for keying shots.
Yet, you still have spills. That means your talent is not well lit, or the green screen is not well flagged off.
Nope, and even in worse lighting video cams do better,
AS a matter of fact at the SLR shoot out here in this link at 34:27 http://www.zacuto.com/shootout they tested green screen with the best SLRs. not a single SLR recorded green screen clean, they did ok, maybe soon we will see cameras do it better under 3000 bucks, but in years to come... especially after the Japanese disaster,
i have my heart set on the idea of a SLR pulling it off but i have to be honest, it seems that they are not made for video., you can watch the tests yourself, they claimed the 7d and 5d did so great but if you ask me its a joke, for the same price and less are video cameras that shoot better green screen then this.
From what i gathered so far the Panasonic GH2, the Canon 7D and 5Dmkii as well as several other lower models from Canon all pull some what the green screen off at HD res, that is if one HACKS their camera with firmware or software., nothing is actually commercially available and for one to put something together the price goes beyond a video camera 4:2:2 able.
Fact shows up here in this link with a SLR vs Video shoot out: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?221586-Green-Screen-Shoot-out-T2i-vs-7D-vs-HPX-170-vs-EX-3
Here you can clearly see after they A/B the green screen with the background using KeyLight, look at how much of the girls smaller hairs had to be cropped to clean up the green artifacts, when you get to the Sony ex3 you can still see her smaller hairs with out them been cropped out to clean up any green at all, very clean and no compromise., i imagine itw as easy to do this with keylight compared to the SLR shots.
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Yes, Sony EX-3 - top end camera with 3 dedicated video sensors and a solid codec in the back. A bit unfair this comparison.
With DSLR your problem already start with the down converting of the 18 or so MP to 1080. Lots of aliasing involved, then a highly compressed codec. Get a Canon HV or any other higher level consumer HDV cam. It's gonna eat DSLRs for breakfast in the green screen corner. Even without 4:2:2.
Green screen is not my daily bread, but I have done a lot with Canon HV30, XL1 and Sony PD150, A1. Never had a need for 4:2:2...
With DSLR your problem already start with the down converting of the 18 or so MP to 1080. Lots of aliasing involved, then a highly compressed codec. Get a Canon HV or any other higher level consumer HDV cam. It's gonna eat DSLRs for breakfast in the green screen corner. Even without 4:2:2.
Green screen is not my daily bread, but I have done a lot with Canon HV30, XL1 and Sony PD150, A1. Never had a need for 4:2:2...
Thanks for your dead on to the point post!
So basically we have SLRs that sort of shoot video for several minutes and can output 1080p via HDMi, as a mac owner i would have to own a mac pro to get a cheaper capture card, or buy something that costs as much if i own a whole studio.
Then we have video cameras ( at the same prices used) that use mini DV tapes that can record and output the same as SLRS, i rather pay less for this since i have to output or capture to something else anyway.
Just for the record do let me know if i missed anything, If SLRS did the job it would be great because one can add the bells and whistles needed for other environments (studio rigs) to fit in., few years to go.
the Canon HV series in consumer level, i had a B&H chat with all 3 departments (consumer video, SLR, Pro Video) but their help was based on current products, no salesperson would ever tell me something like : best to get a Canon XL2 for less and out put directly into your computer firewire etc
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The XL is a standard definition camera, and well beyond their prime. Ours are falling apart meanwhile. They were great at their time, but I wouldn't buy one any more.
The HV30 is my private camera used for family shots and private projects. It has a decent image quality (and works with green screen for me). The others I mentioned are/were my cams on the job (documentary work, PSAs and seminar coverage).
Someone hinted before to rent a camera - doesn't to be an Epic though. In that way you can play around with a couple of different types, and find the one that suits you best.
A DSLR might work you, it just doesn't for me for several reasons (i need a run and gun cam). Test it out.
The HV30 is my private camera used for family shots and private projects. It has a decent image quality (and works with green screen for me). The others I mentioned are/were my cams on the job (documentary work, PSAs and seminar coverage).
Someone hinted before to rent a camera - doesn't to be an Epic though. In that way you can play around with a couple of different types, and find the one that suits you best.
A DSLR might work you, it just doesn't for me for several reasons (i need a run and gun cam). Test it out.
I've seen one used, on a national broadcast with a quick turn around in a (relatively) poorly lit hallway. The results were quite good, better than we could have gotten with the poor lighting and a traditional green screen. However, they're expensive and at the time I was under the impression that it required considerable practice to get everything exactly right. Angle of the backdrop, light placement, etc. But the end result was good. There's no way we could have gotten a full lighting setup in the hallway.
cgbier is spot on about how your iMac isn't really a limiting factor.
You mentioned MiniDV; I'm not sure MiniDV is a great choice because IIRC it's 4:1:1. And I'll echo the thoughts that lighting is key
My conclusion so far is that for SLRs and green screen its a 5d for the full frame or another camera outputted via hdmi into thunderbolt or a capture hardware solution.
As for video cameras i just want to record green screen with some audio, this is for music videos so the audio just has to be herd to sync up.
Do you think the HV30 or newer in that series is better then SLRs at greenscreen?
As a lot of people have said lighting is the biggest factor. If you are getting spill it is because you did not light properly.
Invest in a light meter instead if a better camera. You could shoot on VHS and get a good clean key.
I have shot many green screen shoots and worked with great LD's and poor ones. Lighting is what matters.
Invest in a light meter instead if a better camera. You could shoot on VHS and get a good clean key.
I have shot many green screen shoots and worked with great LD's and poor ones. Lighting is what matters.
your incorrect, i posted the links to SLR shoot outs, NOT ONE (Canon D60,7D,5Dmkii) pulled off a clean green screen, its workable but you can see compromising edges of the subject's hair, and they used the best lighting money can buy., the 5d hacked using a hdmi out to a 3rd party capture device can possibly be a slr solution but if you have to buy another device it makes more sense to just buy a cheap old camera with tape since your by passing the built in compressing anyway and just going straight out.
I am asking what camera (old/new) can pull of a clean green screen whether one has to take a HDMi cable and by pass the camera's own compressors or record to tape, live broadcast quality or not, so can a HV40 pull it off, can you actually get close to the subject and not see green in the hairs or do you have to crop etc in keylight or other chroma key plugs.
Any camera, old or new, can pull a chromakey if you make sure you light your scene correctly.
That's what we try to tell you for days already. I suggested the HV as it is rather dirt cheap, and I'm in general not a big fan DSLR.
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You can get close to your subject if you have the subject as far away from your backdrop as possible and flag off the backdrop. A backlight added to the hairlight helps with the separation.
That's what we try to tell you for days already. I suggested the HV as it is rather dirt cheap, and I'm in general not a big fan DSLR.
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You can get close to your subject if you have the subject as far away from your backdrop as possible and flag off the backdrop. A backlight added to the hairlight helps with the separation.
appreciate your help, but im trying to find out what camera records greenscreen clean up close with GOOD LIGHTING, you know in the link i mention over and over about the shoot out between SLRS, if you look you can see clearly green in the hairs of the subject, and in other links where SLRs where compared to Videos cams (as you said where un fair) i just rather wanted to know what cameras old or knew, dv with FW live out or HDMi out to a recording solution, anything that works clean, its why i asked if the HV30, 40 etc record clean, they all can look clean when the subject is not up close but its the cameras that shoot up close clean that i want.
looks like i have to spend $3000 or more no matter what
I am confused, are you saying that the lighting used in the SLR video shoot out was the reason for the green spill?
Here is the link again: http://www.zacuto.com/shootout
Its this specific video //WEBISODE 3
Around 14:38 they show the lights, levels etc
Then they show the green screen tests,
What i am confused about with your post is that either your saying these guys in the video shot it with poor lighting or the results are the same as with the Video camera green screen test here in another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxszmgTszpQ using a X3, which to me was very clean, i could even see the smaller hairs of the subject's hair, unlike the SLR videos (7D,5D,GH1) which obviously where cropped using keylight and look nasty,
please let me know what you mean, either i am missing something or you thought i was only talking about my lights and not the ones used in tests in the 2 videos.
its seems like you dont want to hear the solution. You need to light correctly for a green screen.
If you know what you are doing in post you can fix minor lighting mistakes pretty easily with the correct spill suppression plug ins and decent chroma key plug ins.
The built in plug-in in Fcp is pretty bad. AVID's keyer is a bit better but third party plug ins are by far better. after effects has by the far the best built in keyer.
It also doesnt matter how much you spend on lights and if ou have the best of the best. It matters how you use the equipment.
EDIT: and you keep referring to the great american shoot out video. The line in there that proves everyones point here is "it makes it more important to shoot good green screen" you need to light properly to get good results.
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ok so you are saying they used poor lighting in the "The Great Camera Shootout 2010t" videos, just wanted to know because i do not know what lights where used in the second video with the Sony X3, which was clean green screen broadcast quality.
Did you check the Pixelcorps videos I linked to earlier? In the longer one, they show and explain their chromakey setup.
Yes, the lighting was worse in the DSLR video, but it doesn't depend on WHAT you use, but HOW.
You should have gotten enough hints to get you started meanwhile. Grab whatever camera you have on hand and go shooting. Play around. That brings you more than any discussion about cameras.
boch82 is right, FCP Classic's chroma plug wasn't anything to write home about. Primatte in Motion was better. FCP X' keyer is amazing though (don't have any comparison to Avid).
Yes, the lighting was worse in the DSLR video, but it doesn't depend on WHAT you use, but HOW.
You should have gotten enough hints to get you started meanwhile. Grab whatever camera you have on hand and go shooting. Play around. That brings you more than any discussion about cameras.
boch82 is right, FCP Classic's chroma plug wasn't anything to write home about. Primatte in Motion was better. FCP X' keyer is amazing though (don't have any comparison to Avid).