Nehalem Mac Pros Arrive: Unboxing and Benchmarks

[AidenShaw]

Well, instead of being sarcastic you can try to educate us all and tell us what else is involved in moving a thread from one one core to another core on the same processor. In your esteemed opinion. I am looking forward to it.

It's not "what else", the real problem is "whether to". In a dynamic system, you can do more damage to performance by moving a thread than you gain.

And, even if systems had the ability (which they don't), you wouldn't blindly do a block-move of one processor's L2 cache to another's L3 cache. Not only is this of questionable value (you'll likely push out some good data and copy a bunch of bad data), but it ignores the L1 cache.

If you're really curious, take some graduate level computer hardware and software architecture courses. Aiden doesn't have the time to type it all in.

Not meant as sarcasm - but there's just such a huge gap in knowledge visible here that I can't hope to bridge it.

Apple doesn't have to make hyperthreading work in any optimal way; all they have to do is make it work better than no hyperthreading at all.

If they do nothing, at times the system will be slower with hyperthreading on than with it off.

 

[RebootD]

The single-socket "Xeon 3500-series" are Core i7's. They are Core i7 plus ECC RAM support. At the same clock speed they are the exact same speed as the equivalent Core i7.

Right, but for us photoshop/lightroom pros ECC isn't a requirement (not doing 48hr renderings) and when you can buy/build a 2.93ghz i7 system for between $1,200-$1,900 with:

1. 6 memory slots for real triple channel support (vs 4 which makes no sense they have room for 6!!)
2. Supports between faster DDR3 12-24GB of ram (compared to expensive 4GB dimms - 16 dual channel, 12 triple)
3. You can choose from hundreds of better graphics cards (4850 1GB - $149, 4870 1GB - $200) than the pathetic nvidia 120 (re-branded 9500 which is a $50 card oem)

And I love you guys and the "You're comparing a workstation to consumer grade parts!" the only thing different is the name of the processor and ECC support. (On the Quad).

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Right, but for us photoshop/lightroom pros ECC isn't a requirement (not doing 48hr renderings) and when you can buy/build a 2.93ghz i7 system for between $1,200-$1,900 with:

1. 6 memory slots for real triple channel support (vs 4 which makes no sense they have room for 6!!)
2. Supports between faster DDR3 12-24GB of ram (compared to expensive 4GB dimms - 16 dual channel, 12 triple)
3. You can choose from hundreds of better graphics cards (4850 1GB - $149, 4870 1GB - $200) than the pathetic nvidia 120 (re-branded 9500 which is a $50 card oem)

And I love you guys and the "You're comparing a workstation to consumer grade parts!" the only thing different is the name of the processor and ECC support. (On the Quad).

Indeed, I fully agree with you. My comment was merely pointed at the "Why are they using a Xeon when the i7 is better" comment; mentioning how they are the same. I, too, would like to see a 'desktop-class' i7 machine.

 

[polaris20]

Right, but for us photoshop/lightroom pros ECC isn't a requirement (not doing 48hr renderings) and when you can buy/build a 2.93ghz i7 system for between $1,200-$1,900 with:

1. 6 memory slots for real triple channel support (vs 4 which makes no sense they have room for 6!!)
2. Supports between faster DDR3 12-24GB of ram (compared to expensive 4GB dimms - 16 dual channel, 12 triple)
3. You can choose from hundreds of better graphics cards (4850 1GB - $149, 4870 1GB - $200) than the pathetic nvidia 120 (re-branded 9500 which is a $50 card oem)

And I love you guys and the "You're comparing a workstation to consumer grade parts!" the only thing different is the name of the processor and ECC support. (On the Quad).

So can I count on you to come back and say how overpriced the HP, Dell, and Lenovo workstations are when their pricing is announced for the Nehelem chips? Because with the same specs, they're pretty much the same price.

Or do people only complain when Apple is expensive, not Dell, HP, or Lenovo?

What people continue to be pissed about is not that Apples are too expensive, but that they don't make a headless iMac with an i7.

They just can't see what the difference is.

When you compare a quad MP with a current HP XW4600, the Mac is about $700 more. The quad should have been cheaper, but I doubt the octos will be significantly different in price compared to the mainstream equivalents.

 

[RebootD]

Yes any workstation for what I do is 'overpriced' and I never tried to compare a Mac Pro to a Windows Workstation because they offer solutions that AREN'T WORKSTATIONS!!!

For graphic design and photography we don't need to pay more for ECC Xeons and Ram, but since there is no alternative to the MacPro in Apple's Camp that is why it is so frustrating. In fact check out some of my other posts where I defend Apple on workstation vs workstation costs.You can buy/build a faster PC non-worksation with more ram, actual triple channel ram with 6 slots and a much much better video card for 50% of the cost of the Quad.

Plus I've also stated that my personal frustration comes from I feel forced to go and buy the older 2.8 just to have ram availability without getting the newer Octo that starts at $1,000 more.

Maybe you can do a little reading up before you attack someone and end up looking foolish. Shame on you I guess.

So can I count on you to come back and say how overpriced the HP, Dell, and Lenovo workstations are when their pricing is announced for the Nehelem chips? Because with the same specs, they're pretty much the same price.

Or do people only complain when Apple is expensive, not Dell, HP, or Lenovo?

What people continue to be pissed about is not that Apples are too expensive, but that they don't make a headless iMac with an i7.

They just can't see what the difference is.

When you compare a quad MP with a current HP XW4600, the Mac is about $700 more. The quad should have been cheaper, but I doubt the octos will be significantly different in price compared to the mainstream equivalents.

 

[polaris20]

Yes any workstation for what I do is 'overpriced' and I never tried to compare a Mac Pro to a Windows Workstation because they offer solutions that AREN'T WORKSTATIONS!!!

For graphic design and photography we don't need to pay more for ECC Xeons and Ram, but since there is no alternative to the MacPro in Apple's Camp that is why it is so frustrating. In fact check out some of my other posts where I defend Apple on workstation vs workstation costs.You can buy/build a faster PC non-worksation with more ram, actual triple channel ram with 6 slots and a much much better video card for 50% of the cost of the Quad.

Plus I've also stated that my personal frustration comes from I feel forced to go and buy the older 2.8 just to have ram availability without getting the newer Octo that starts at $1,000 more.

Maybe you can do a little reading up before you attack someone and end up looking foolish. Shame on you I guess.

Oh yes, I look foolish for pointing out that you're wrong. It really doesn't matter to Apple if you need ECC or not, that's the market they're selling to. It's a workstation market they're going after! We're all sad there's no true desktop class computer from Apple, but it just ain't happening. Apple doesn't care that you want a Mac Pro at a desktop price.

Comparing the Quad MP to the HP XW4600, the Apple is about $600-$700 more. Yes, it should have been cheaper, perhaps a $300 difference.

And the XW4600 has the same 8GB limit too. Wow, what a rip-off. So there you have it, HP and Apple both are overpriced.

And perhaps you should grow a thicker skin. I didn't "attack" you, but merely asked if I could count on you to come back this week to say how the new Dell T series and new HP Z series workstations are overpriced too.

Afterall, they're the equivalent Nehelem-based machines to the Apple Mac Pros.

EDIT I'm at $1800 for a Dell T3400. Oh and look, it's the same 8GB RAM limit. Still cheaper than Apple, but not $1000 either.

Like it or not, Apple is selling a "workstation". Whether or not you think it's a workstation is irrelevant to them, that's the market they're going after.

Do I think the Quad is overpriced? Absolutely, especially given that they're not (yet) available with Quadro cards, which is what I'm interested in.

 

[RebootD]

Do I think the Quad is overpriced? Absolutely, especially given that they're not (yet) available with Quadro cards, which is what I'm interested in.

So you agree with me and everyone else who has posted on here, yet you blast them at the same time for wanting what you want. Congrats, that made my head explode.

 

[polaris20]

So you agree with me and everyone else who has posted on here, yet you blast them at the same time for wanting what you want. Congrats, that made my head explode.

Dude, you seriously have to read a little better. I want a workstation with a Quadro for $2000, not a $1000 desktop.

 

[LillDrutten]

The single-socket "Xeon 3500-series" are Core i7's. They are Core i7 plus ECC RAM support. At the same clock speed they are the exact same speed as the equivalent Core i7. RAM speeds are the same, 1066 MHz for the lower-end parts, 1333 MHz for the high-end part. It's just that PC motherboard manufacturers allow you to select higher (Intel considers if overclocking,) RAM speeds, Apple doesn't. And, to my understanding (not breaking NDA here, I haven't touched any Xeon 3500-series stuff, so I only know what I've read on public sources,) the Xeons will be locked down to 1066/1333 anyway, no 'overclocked' 1600 or 1866 MHz RAM. (Intel's own X58/i7 motherboard, the DX58SO, supports up to 1866 MHz RAM as 'standard', even though the processor-side considers that overclocking.)

+ECC -triplemem? Seems to be a good processor for a server but not the right one for a workstation. At least not for my work.

 

[mBox]

Dude, you seriously have to read a little better. I want a workstation with a Quadro for $2000, not a $1000 desktop.

were budgeted to replace 4 MacPros. with the non Quadro option (we need the 5800), were waiting till August now

 

[polaris20]

were budgeted to replace 4 MacPros. with the non Quadro option (we need the 5800), were waiting till August now

we just saw the webinar this past Friday on the new x800 series from nVidia. Very, very cool stuff. All DisplayPort, no DVI, virtual OS 3D acceleration via SLI, up to 4GB of DDR3 (FX5800). Neat stuff!

 

[AidenShaw]

Apple Tax $729 on quad

Dell's prices are up now, the Dell T3500 quad single socket is $2019, compared to $2748 for a similar MP quad. (Upgraded Dell to same 2.66 GHz W3520 as MP, 3 GiB RAM, 750 GB disk, cheapest 512 MiB graphics - upgrade Apple with 3 yr AppleCare)

Dell has better
- graphics - Quadro FX 580 vs GeForce GT 120
- disk - 750 GB vs 640
- warranty - 3 yr NBD onsite
- memory - 1333 vs 1066MHz
- memory slots - 6 slots for 24 GiB max support with true tri-channel operation

Dell is also offering the 3.2 GHz CPU... (not cheap)

My quote:

Dell Precision T3500 64bit

Starting Price $2,019
Date 4/1/2009 9:43:24 AM Central Standard Time

Catalog Number / Description Product Code Qty SKU Id

Dell Precision T3500, CMT, Standard Power Supply T3500 1 [224-4422] 1

Genuine Windows Vista® Business Service Pack 1, with media, 64, ENG VB61E 1 [310-8642][420-8954] 11
No Energy Star NOESTAR 1 [330-3201] 25
Quad Core Intel® Xeon® W3520 2.66GHz, 8M L3, 4.8GT/s W3520 1 [317-0125] 2
Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration MT 1 [311-7463] 15
3GB, 1333MHz, DDR3 SDRAM, ECC (3 DIMMS) 3G3E333 1 [317-0116] 3
512MB NVIDIA® Quadro® FX 580, DUAL MON, 2 DP & 1 DVI FX580 1 [320-7893] 6
C1 All SATA drives, No RAID for 1 Hard Drive SATA1 1 [341-8562] 9
Integrated Intel chipset SATA 3.0Gb/s controller NSASCTL 1 [341-9289] 24
750GB SATA 3Gb/s with NCQ and 16MB DataBurst Cache™ 750GS 1 [341-7033] 8
48X/32X CD-RW/DVD Combo Drive with Cyberlink Power DVD™ COMBO 1 [313-7459][420-9185] 16
No Floppy Drive and No Media Card Reader NFD 1 [341-5255] 10
No Monitor NMN 1 [320-3316] 5
Dell QuietKey Keyboard QUSB 1 [330-3203] 4
Dell USB 2 Button Optical Mouse USBO 1 [330-3945] 12
No Speaker option NSPKR 1 [313-2663] 18
Documentation, English, with 125V Power Cord DOCENG 1 [330-3156][330-3157] 21
No Resource DVD NORCD 1 [330-4024] 27
Shipping Material for System SHIP 1 [330-3209] 40
3 Year Basic Limited Warranty and 3 Year NBD Onsite Service U3OS 1 [992-8982][993-3080][993-9018][993-9027] 29
No Onsite System Setup NOINSTL 1 [900-9987] 32

 

[polaris20]

Dell's prices are up now, the Dell T3500 quad single socket is $2019, compared to $2748 for a similar MP quad. (Upgraded Dell to same 2.66 GHz W3520 as MP, 3 GiB RAM, 750 GB disk, cheapest 512 MiB graphics - upgrade Apple with 3 yr AppleCare)

Dell has better
- graphics - Quadro FX 580 vs GeForce GT 120
- disk - 750 GB vs 640
- warranty - 3 yr NBD onsite
- memory - 1333 vs 1066MHz

Dell is also offering the 3.2 GHz CPU... (not cheap)

That's a pretty good value then, as it comes in cheaper than not only the MP, but also the new HP stuff.

And the lack of Quadro cards on any of the new MPs pisses me off. We're going to have to make do with the 4870 for now.

 

[Umbongo]

The Dell UK site has options to match the Mac Pros for a good comparison (all prices exclude VAT)

2.66GHz Mac Pro: 3x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120 & Applecare = £1,821
2.66GHz T3500: 3x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £1,243
Difference of £578

2.93GHz Mac Pro: 3x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120, Applecare = £2,169
2.93GHz T3500: 3x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £1,536
Difference of £633

2x2.26GHz Mac Pro: 6x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120, Applecare = £2,343
2x2.26GHz T5500: 6x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £1,948
Difference of £395

2x2.66GHz Mac Pro: 6x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120, Applecare: £3,316
2x2.66GHz T5500: 6x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £3,162
Difference of £154

2x2.93GHz Mac Pro: 6x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120, Applecare: £4,151
2x2.93GHz T5500: 6x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £3,972
Difference of £179

 

[polaris20]

The Dell UK site has options to match the Mac Pros for a good comparison (all prices exclude VAT)

2.66GHz Mac Pro: 3x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120 & Applecare = £1,821
2.66GHz T3500: 3x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £1,243
Difference of £578

2.93GHz Mac Pro: 3x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120, Applecare = £2,169
2.93GHz T3500: 3x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £1,536
Difference of £633

2x2.26GHz Mac Pro: 6x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120, Applecare = £2,343
2x2.26GHz T5500: 6x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £1,948
Difference of £395

2x2.66GHz Mac Pro: 6x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120, Applecare: £3,316
2x2.66GHz T5500: 6x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £3,162
Difference of £154

2x2.93GHz Mac Pro: 6x1GB, 640GB drive, 512MB GT 120, Applecare: £4,151
2x2.93GHz T5500: 6x1GB, 750GB drive, 512MB Quadro FX 580 & 3 year warranty = £3,972
Difference of £179

There's definitely a drastic jump with the quads, whereas the octo's aren't quite as painfully overpriced.

 

[AidenShaw]

Apple Tax $799 - get a T3500 *and* Core i7 for same price as MP

Dell's prices are up now, the Dell T3500 quad single socket is $2019, compared to $2748 for a similar MP quad. (Upgraded Dell to same 2.66 GHz W3520 as MP, 3 GiB RAM, 750 GB disk, cheapest 512 MiB graphics - upgrade Apple with 3 yr AppleCare)

Dell has better
- graphics - Quadro FX 580 vs GeForce GT 120
- disk - 750 GB vs 640
- warranty - 3 yr NBD onsite
- memory - 1333 vs 1066MHz
- memory slots - 6 slots for 24 GiB max support with true tri-channel operation

Dell is also offering the 3.2 GHz CPU... (not cheap)

My quote:

If I match the Mac Pro's 1066MHz memory, the price difference is $799 (Dell T3500 drops to $1949).

That means that for the price of the Mac Pro, you could get a T3500 with better specs *and* a Core i7 quad Studio XPS.

 

[Umbongo]

There's definitely a drastic jump with the quads, whereas the octo's aren't quite as painfully overpriced.

One reason for this is probably due to Apple not wanting their products to compete with each other. If the quad Mac Pros were more in line with the competition they'd be competing with the iMac.

 

[Umbongo]

If I match the Mac Pro's 1066MHz memory, the price difference is $799 (Dell T3500 drops to $1949).

That means that for the price of the Mac Pro, you could get a T3500 with better specs *and* a Core i7 quad Studio XPS.

Also depends what you need feature wise. If the graphics card doesn't matter, or you are happy to buy it and storage and memory 3rd party no matter who you buy from Dell become an even better option on price.

2.66GHz Dell T3500 + 3rd party: 6GB of memory, two 640GB drives, Radeon 4870 = $1,640
2.66GHz Mac Pro + Radeon 4870 + 3rd party: 6GB of memory, an extra 640GB drive = $2,869

2.66GHz Dell T3500 + 3rd party: 12GB of memory, two 640GB drives, Radeon 4870 = $1,750
2.66GHz Mac Pro + Radeon 4870 + 3rd party: 12GB of memory, an extra 640GB drive = $3,509

I guess in the end there is really no way to make the quad Mac Pro look good on price unless you go an illogical route.

 

[polaris20]

One reason for this is probably due to Apple not wanting their products to compete with each other. If the quad Mac Pros were more in line with the competition they'd be competing with the iMac.

Which really means the iMacs are overpriced, which are causing the Quad MP to be overpriced. hehehe

Oh man, I'd be all over a $2000 Mac Pro Quad. But at $2700 with the AppleCare......ouch.

 

[AidenShaw]

2.66GHz Dell T3500 + 3rd party: 6GB of memory, two 640GB drives, Radeon 4870 = $1,640

Are you tossing the 1 GiB RAM, 80 GB disk and Quadro NVS in the base Dell config?

Discarding the RAM and disk makes sense (well, discard the RAM and leave the default disk in, for 640+640+80), but I'd add the $120 for the Dell Quadro FX 580 instead of ATI.

 

[Eric Piercey]

I'm not sure why this is getting heated.

MP's are housed in/ comprised of: well designed, sturdy, pretty, shiny metal boxes filled with quality components

and will typically remain solid for 5+ years.

Dells are housed in/ comprised of cheap looking plastic boxes with constantly changing components

and will likely be replaced every 2-3 years.

MPs run OSX (in addition to whatever else.)

Dells just mostly run Winders.

No, I'm in no way stating I think the Dell is grossly inferior. They're actually quite fine and dandy and if they meet a person's taste and requirements.. and not to mention cost less.

 

[Umbongo]

Are you tossing the 1 GiB RAM, 80 GB disk and Quadro NVS in the base Dell config?

Yeah.

Discarding the RAM and disk makes sense (well, discard the RAM and leave the default disk in, for 640+640+80), but I'd add the $120 for the Dell Quadro FX 580 instead of ATI.

I probably would to but some might prefer the raw power of the 4870. Also if you were going to try and get OSX to work on it that would be an option.

I'd be interested to see the T3500 get some good OSx86 support and be a great choice for a prebuilt hackintosh.

 

[polaris20]

I'm not sure why this is getting heated.

MP's are housed in/ comprised of: well designed, sturdy, pretty, shiny metal boxes filled with quality components

and will typically remain solid for 5+ years.

Dells are housed in/ comprised of cheap looking plastic boxes with constantly changing components

and will likely be replaced every 2-3 years.

MPs run OSX (in addition to whatever else.)

Dells just mostly run Winders.

No, I'm in no way stating I think the Dell is grossly inferior. They're actually quite fine and dandy and if they meet a person's taste and requirements.. and not to mention cost less.

I disagree. Dell and HP workstations are made very well, and definitely deserve comparison. Two of HP's new workstations are even aluminum, and the internals incredibly clean, all tool-less in design.

 

[Eric Piercey]

I disagree. Dell and HP workstations are made very well, and definitely deserve comparison. Two of HP's new workstations are even aluminum, and the internals incredibly clean, all tool-less in design.

I only spoke of Dell so you aren't actually disagreeing with me in lauding HP. While the Dells certainly aren't crap, they're also not MP's in terms of quality in design/ engineering. I say this from the perspective of a hardware support tech in a large Dell environment.. dealing with them every day, certified, all that. (Certified Apple tech as well.) Dell makes fine machines and I have nothing bad to say about them. They're like Mitsubishi as compared to say BMW; stylish and functional but with cheaper materials. They'll still do the job, perhaps just as well.. but the experience isn't the same.

Dell has excellent customer service/support and very quick turnaround which is slightly more than I can say for Apple. The downside is you're running Windows.

 

[RebootD]

I'm not sure why this is getting heated.

MP's are housed in/ comprised of: well designed, sturdy, pretty, shiny metal boxes filled with quality components

Again, not important. If the thing turns on and runs without dying I'm happy; metal or plastic.

and will typically remain solid for 5+ years.

Dells are housed in/ comprised of cheap looking plastic boxes with constantly changing components

and will likely be replaced every 2-3 years.

Okay show us some data that backs up these 'claims'. If they both have the exact same, high-grade server parts in them they should last the same amount of time.

MPs run OSX (in addition to whatever else.)

Dells just mostly run Winders.

Well I will give you that! But sometimes it feels like OSX is costing us $500-$1,000..