Nest Reportedly Working on Cheaper 'Learning Thermostat' to Sell for Under $200

[parseckadet]

Nest really needs to get the act together and do something compelling. I've never been that impressed with the auto-scheduling feature, and auto-away only works if you use geo-fencing or shell out for a bunch of nest protects. Still, my wife's iPhone tends to get goofy and report her location as far as half a mile away sometimes. This creates problems because Nest doesn't let you adjust the size of the geo-fence. As for the cams, the issue for me has never been the price of the hardware, it's the ridiculous monthly cost you HAVE to pay to get any true use out of them. If I hadn't been able to integrate Nest with my SmartThings hub I would have dumped it by now.

All that being said, the remote temperature/presence sensors would be quite welcome, assuming they don't charge an arm and a leg for them. But knowing Nest, they'll probably charge you $30/month if you want to do anything useful with them.

 

[oneMadRssn]

For me, saying "Hey Siri, lower the upstairs temperature two degrees" is a lot more convenient than having to futz with an app at 2 AM. Don't do it a lot, but it's handy when I need it.

Assuming Nest completely copies Ecobee's remote sensor idea, you could use their occupancy sensors to trigger HomeKit rules. Turn lights on/off, change the temperature to a certain level while someone is in a certain room (home gym), etc.

HomeKit isn't an app, it's a foundation used by many apps. Ecobee's native app uses HomeKit, for example. You can use it to create scenes like "Good Morning", which could set your temp to something predefined, turn on certain lights, maybe start coffee brewing.

Other HomeKit apps (like Apple's Home, or Elgato's Eve) will be able to see/modify that scene. This lets companies (like Ecobee) have control over how they want their app to look and feel, but still let their hardware play with others.

Sounds like you have an Ecobee? I read that when using Siri to change the temperature, it changes sets the new temperature to hold forever, and thus your previously scheduled temperature schedules don't happen unless you manually set the ecobee back to run schedule at some point (e.g., after setting the temperature using Siri in the evening, the Ecobee will not automatically turning up the heat in the morning as scheduled). Is this still an issue, or have they fixed this?

Also @aristobrat sounds like you have an Ecobee too? Is this an issue?

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It adds nothing, absolutely nothing. I got a Nest Gen 2 for Christmas around 2012, we LOVED it. When EcoBee came out with a Homekit thermostat, we switched, we HATED it. Siri rarely understands the most simple of commands, and we found ourselves using the app just like we did with the Nest. Shortly after the Gen 3 Nest came to market so I sold the Ecobee and went back to Nest.

You really only mess with it when it is new and you are getting it all set up and ready to go, and maybe if you are new to this type of tech you might check it frequently for a few months. After that you basically forget it, which is how I think this type of technology should work. I check our usage about once a week to see if there are any anomalies, other than that it just does its thing in the background of our lives. If you have a family perhaps you might need or want more control, everyone's use case is probably different. We don't have kids, just two mutts and we work a typical M-F 8-5 schedule.

-----------------------------------

Pretty sure the Gen 3's already sell for under $200 on eBay everyday. I think I got our Gen 3 on B&H for under $200 around Christmas a few years back.

That said, I always wondered why they didn't keep making Gen 1 when Gen 2 came out, but at a lower price point, and then why they didn't keep making Gen 2 when Gen 3 came out at a lower price point. Similar to how Apple keeps selling last years phone, but at a cheaper price.

This is my hunch as well. I am tempted to go for the Ecobee because it seems to have the most robust features today, but I also want this to be as easy and intuitive as possible, and ideally a set it and forget it type of thing. No matter how much I look at it, HomeKit seems to promote the opposite of that.

 

[maflynn]

is a lot more convenient than having to futz with an app at 2 AM

I personally don't futz with the thermostat for 2 degrees at 2:00am

I think there's a reason why homekit hasn't taken off (actually there's probably a few reasons).

 

[oneMadRssn]

Be sure to check out tado° - allows a lot more control than Nest and also uses geolocation to work out when you're out (turns the heating off) and when you're on the way home (pre-heats your house so it's up to temperature when you walk through the door).

Thanks. This sounds like it's just for air conditioning units though. We have two zone central a/c and natural gas forced hot air. Thus, I think my only choices are Nest, Ecobee, and Honeywell.

 

[parseckadet]

My biggest complaint is that I bought it mainly because it would heat and cool automatically. While it does this, it's far more complicated than I had hoped. My goal was to put in a target temperature and then the system would either heat or cool to maintain that temperature. Unfortunately, it forces me to set a range of 3 degrees apart, so my optimal cooling temperature and heating temperature can never be the same. If I set the perfect heating temp, I have to live with a cooling temp 3 degrees warmer than I'd like and vice-versa. This is really unacceptable, at it forces me to constantly adjust both the heat and cool temps. So I hope a software update will address this in the near future.

I think you're expecting a little too much precision out of your HVAC system. Many thermostats will not maintain an exact temperature, but will instead allow the temperature to fluctuate within a certain range centered on the set point. For example, during the day I set my Nest to heat the house to 68. But the Nest doesn't turn the system on until the temperature reaches about 67, then leaves it on until it reaches about 69.5. This is done for a few reasons. It takes time for the furnace to ignite the burner and then reach temperature before the blower even turns on. Then the blower turns on and all the cold air in the ducts has to be blown out before the warm air starts to warm up the house. Finally, once the thermostat stops calling for heat the burner shuts off, but the blower continues to run for another minute or two (there's still warm air in those ducts, make the most of it). This means the temperature may still actually continue to rise. Reducing the number of times this cycle occurs reduces energy usage and wear on the furnace. Thus the Nest, and many other thermostats, maintain a temperature range, not a set temperature. Even my cheapo Honeywell the Nest replaced did this.

Given that these thermostats operate within a range, and the temperature may continue to drift after the thermostat stops calling for heating/cooling, if you operate in a dual heating/cooling mode, these ranges should not intersect and you need a buffer between them. Otherwise you run the risk of the furnace heating to one temperature, which then triggers the A/C to activate, creating an endless loop. Finally, most people will find that they don't even notice a difference of only a few degrees. Or if they do, such a fluctuation doesn't make them uncomfortable.

When evaluating how well the Nest, or any thermostat, operates you shouldn't be watching the current temperature like a hawk. Instead you should be asking if you feel comfortable or not. In my example, if I set the temperature to 68, but it's currently 67 and I'm not cold, should I still fault the Nest for not keeping it at exactly 68?

Some notes: My example above was specific to a forced air furnace, but similar issues exist for air conditioners as well has other heating/cooling systems.

 

[imola.zhp]

This is my hunch as well. I am tempted to go for the Ecobee because it seems to have the most robust features today, but I also want this to be as easy and intuitive as possible, and ideally a set it and forget it type of thing. No matter how much I look at it, HomeKit seems to promote the opposite of that.

Once Nest learns your schedule, or you program your schedule, you set it and forget it. I prefer the statistics on the Nest too, it is much more simple; "You ran the heat for this long today." Ecobee had information OVERLOAD, a minute by minute history of so many data points, the data points from all the sensors, temp, humidity, etc., plus data from outdoors, it was nuts! Nest recognizes reasons your usage might be above or below normal and gives you an icon to designate that, a little person that looks like he (or she) is running to designate you were "away" more often that typical. A sun to indicate it was a warmer day that typical, etc.

 

[aristobrat]

I personally don't futz with the thermostat for 2 degrees at 2:00am

You've never woken up in the middle of the night and found the temp not comfortable? Really?

I like it cold-cold when I go to bed. Not a problem during the winter, but pretty dumb ($$) during the summer. So I start off the night cold-cold, and then at 1AM, it switches over to something practical. But if I wake up and can't fall back asleep, making it cold again helps. And not having to do anything other than say a few words to make that happen really helps too.
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Also @aristobrat sounds like you have an Ecobee too? Is this an issue?

Looks like it still holds a manual temp change until you tell it that you're done with it.

This is my hunch as well. I am tempted to go for the Ecobee because it seems to have the most robust features today, but I also want this to be as easy and intuitive as possible, and ideally a set it and forget it type of thing. No matter how much I look at it, HomeKit seems to promote the opposite of that.

For me, my two Ecobee's are 100% set-and-forget (for HVAC), and oh-yeah-by-the-way, they can additionally integrate with HomeKit, if that every becomes something you're interested in down the road.

After having the Ecobee going on two years, I wouldn't switch to any other thermostat that didn't support report sensors to figure out if people are home, and to run the HVAC until the occupied rooms average out to the set temperature.
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I think there's a reason why homekit hasn't taken off (actually there's probably a few reasons).

Maybe it's because I've dabbled in enough home automation over the past several years, I see the potential in HomeKit.

The foundation is just being poured. Native rules (version one) just came out in iOS 10. It's probably going to be a few more years before HomeKit even starts to make sense (in a practical way) to most folks, IMO.

But for HA geeks like me, HomeKit today lets me control/monitor stuff in my house made by LiftMaster, Insteon, GE, ELK, Honeywell and Bosch (each using their own unique protocols). I don't know of anyone else's HA system that will allow me to do that, at least not with native integration to iOS.

 

[peter2]

Seems a bit paranoid, I don't know, you should ask in a Nest forum. What is the worst that can happen? The government learns the habits of your thermostat? SCARY!

The worst thing that can happen is that I can throw the device to trash once the vendor decides not to support it. I see absolutely no reason why things that can (and should) run on my server should run somewhere else, or why I should change a thermostat every time a vendor decides to force me to do so.

 

[Mac 128]

I think you're expecting a little too much precision out of your HVAC system. Many thermostats will not maintain an exact temperature, but will instead allow the temperature to fluctuate within a certain range centered on the set point. For example, during the day I set my Nest to heat the house to 68. But the Nest doesn't turn the system on until the temperature reaches about 67, then leaves it on until it reaches about 69.5. This is done for a few reasons. It takes time for the furnace to ignite the burner and then reach temperature before the blower even turns on. Then the blower turns on and all the cold air in the ducts has to be blown out before the warm air starts to warm up the house. Finally, once the thermostat stops calling for heat the burner shuts off, but the blower continues to run for another minute or two (there's still warm air in those ducts, make the most of it). This means the temperature may still actually continue to rise. Reducing the number of times this cycle occurs reduces energy usage and wear on the furnace. Thus the Nest, and many other thermostats, maintain a temperature range, not a set temperature. Even my cheapo Honeywell the Nest replaced did this.

Given that these thermostats operate within a range, and the temperature may continue to drift after the thermostat stops calling for heating/cooling, if you operate in a dual heating/cooling mode, these ranges should not intersect and you need a buffer between them. Otherwise you run the risk of the furnace heating to one temperature, which then triggers the A/C to activate, creating an endless loop. Finally, most people will find that they don't even notice a difference of only a few degrees. Or if they do, such a fluctuation doesn't make them uncomfortable.

When evaluating how well the Nest, or any thermostat, operates you shouldn't be watching the current temperature like a hawk. Instead you should be asking if you feel comfortable or not. In my example, if I set the temperature to 68, but it's currently 67 and I'm not cold, should I still fault the Nest for not keeping it at exactly 68?

Some notes: My example above was specific to a forced air furnace, but similar issues exist for air conditioners as well has other heating/cooling systems.

I appreciate your thoughts.

My perception is that I'm not necessarily demanding too much precision, but rather more simplicity. I don't want to have to set a range, but rather a target which the thermostat intuitively assesses the temperature trajectory. In other words, it should know if the AC has dropped the temperature lower than the threshold and not turn on the heat unless the temperature continues to drop once the cooling unit has completely turned off. Likewise, if the heating unit goes a degree above the target temp, the thermostat should likewise know not to turn on the cooling unless the temperature continues to rise once the heating unit has shut off. I want the temperature to exist around 73F. I don't need to set my own thresholds, as software capable of controlling both heating and cooling should know how to interact with itself to achieve that goal without damaging the system.

A typical situation is this. I tell the heating side to target 73 in the morning. But my cooling threshold is automatically set at 76, and there's nothing I can do about that. Then the sun starts to warm the room, and the temperature starts to rise. 3 degrees will make a significant difference in a small space, before the cooling unit comes on at 77, and then only brings it back down to 76. So then I have to manually adjust the temperature, so that it cools to 73. It might cool it down to 72, but has so far never gone below that. However, my heat is automatically lowered to 70, and doesn't come on until it hits 69, and then will only raise it to 70. At which point, I have to manually adjust it to heat to 73. Depending on a variety of factors this kind of thing can go on all day. I'm merely suggesting that that software can be smarter to handle these changes, while leaving in a reasonable range fluctuation around the target zone, without my having to police it.
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If you don't want the auto-scheduling feature, turn it off. Open the app, go to the gear icon, select "Nest Sense," select "Auto-Schedule" and turn it off. If it still tries to learn, call customer service, something is wrong, you can make the Nest as dumb or as smart as you want. You can have it learn your schedule, you can set your own schedule or your can turn scheduling off completely.

Geofencing hasn't been an issue for us. I cant recall one time arriving home to an unconditioned house, so I think it must be working ok for us.

The temp on the screen is the set point of the thermostat, the current temp will show up as a smaller number on the display. Some people like this, some don't. Ours is in the middle of the house and I cant remember the last time I looked at it, as I have stated before we just forget it, it just works in the background of our life. Perhaps our use case is very different than yours, and if so, then there might be a better product out there for you.

Wait, I did have trouble with the Gen2 we had initially, it did not like our old time capsule. I called customer service and tried this and tried that and it would work and then it wouldn't. Eventually I upgraded to the latest time capsule and all of those connection issues went away.

Appreciate the thoughts. It might be that I just don't know how to use it. I had to initially set a schedule since it didn't know my patterns, but now maybe I can turn off the schedule and it will automatically do what I want it to do? Again, I was expecting it to me be much simpler and much more intuitive. Geofencing seems to have settled down now. Im not sure what the issue was in the beginning.

I have the large display set to the temp so I see it from across the room. However, when I pass by it, and it changes to the heat/cool display, it shows the zone, but often the mini current temp indicator is missing from the range graphic, and I have to switch modes to see what the current temp is. You're right, it should just operate in the background, and I shouldn't have to concern myself, but as I described in the preceding post, I'm constantly having to tweak the settings to achieve the target temp I prefer for my space. So if I'm passing by and I feel cold or hot, I check the thermostat to see if there's a reason. On occasion, I discover it's just me, and the Nest is set at the target setting of 73 for instance. Most other times, I discover the settings are too high or low.

 

[aristobrat]

I see absolutely no reason why things that can (and should) run on my server should run somewhere else, or why I should change a thermostat every time a vendor decides to force me to do so.

Devil's advocate here, but it's already been pointed out that if the Ecobee or Nest clouds go away, they'll still run like the programmable thermostats that preceded them.

As for why Nest and Ecobee don't make a version of their cloud software that you can run on your home server, ... my guess is because very, very few people want to be able to do that.

 

[parseckadet]

I appreciate your thoughts.

My perception is that I'm not necessarily demanding too much precision, but rather more simplicity. I don't want to have to set a range, but rather a target which the thermostat intuitively assesses the temperature trajectory. In other words, it should know if the AC has dropped the temperature lower than the threshold and not turn on the heat unless the temperature continues to drop once the cooling unit has completely turned off. Likewise, if the heating unit goes a degree above the target temp, the thermostat should likewise know not to turn on the cooling unless the temperature continues to rise once the heating unit has shut off. I want the temperature to exist around 73F. I don't need to set my own thresholds, as software capable of controlling both heating and cooling should know how to interact with itself to achieve that goal without damaging the system.

A typical situation is this. I tell the heating side to target 73 in the morning. But my cooling threshold is automatically set at 76, and there's nothing I can do about that. Then the sun starts to warm the room, and the temperature starts to rise. 3 degrees will make a significant difference in a small space, before the cooling unit comes on at 77, and then only brings it back down to 76. So then I have to manually adjust the temperature, so that it cools to 73. It might cool it down to 72, but has so far never gone below that. However, my heat is automatically lowered to 70, and doesn't come on until it hits 69, and then will only raise it to 70. At which point, I have to manually adjust it to heat to 73. Depending on a variety of factors this kind of thing can go on all day. I'm merely suggesting that that software can be smarter to handle these changes, while leaving in a reasonable range fluctuation around the target zone, without my having to police it.

I think you missed my point, which I admit may have been overshadowed by the details in my previous post. You're assuming that your HVAC system is one system capable of maintaining a rather narrow range of temperatures. But it's not one system, it's two which have likely been manufactured by two different companies. And the best you can hope for from either system is that they roughly maintain the temperature you asked for. The only common components are the thermostat and the ducts (assuming they're both forced air). Expecting the Nest to maintain exactly 73 all day is unreasonable, and I challenge you to find any commercially available thermostat that can do it.

 

[imola.zhp]

The worst thing that can happen is that I can throw the device to trash once the vendor decides not to support it. I see absolutely no reason why things that can (and should) run on my server should run somewhere else, or why I should change a thermostat every time a vendor decides to force me to do so.

What are you talking about? If you don't want the Nest to EVER be internet connected, simply don't connect it to the internet when prompted. It will work out of the box as a... wait for it... thermostat! You will loose remote monitoring capabilities but it will still learn your schedule and help you save money on your utility bills.

This is also what would happen if Nest disappeared or closed their doors tomorrow, your thermostat wouldn't need to go into the trash, it would just go on working as a... wait for it... thermostat! Which, if you never wanted it connected to the internet in the first place, wouldn't concern you anyway. Nest still supports all 3 generations of their product, I think they started in 2011. I don't see them going anywhere soon, especially now that they are owned by Google.

But by all means, keep going through life with those concerns.

 

[mikemch16]

Anyone that thought Apple's acquisition of Beats was poor would bow their head in shame at the 3 billion Google paid for Nest.

A cheaper thermostat is nice, I have a Honeywell and it works just fine with HomeKit. I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time and effort in setting up sensors. A contractor told me that even if you have a high efficiency furnace you have low efficiency ducts. Hopefully in my next home i'll be able to build it and i'll go with mini-splits and radiant under floor heating. No forced air, no ducts, no dust.

As for Nest...they used to be thought of as a leader but every one of their products can easily be replaced by something else capable.
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I've about given up on all of these cloud cameras. I'm just going to get up in attic and drop BNC cables and go with a wired camera/NVR setup.

Cloud subscriptions are just there to keep you entangled with their devices. It should be an option...not a mandate.

Yeah I've been thinking the same thing. Just running hard wires from attic to roof. More reliable and more versatile. I'm sick of my nest cameras...

 

[Mac 128]

I think you missed my point, which I admit may have been overshadowed by the details in my previous post. You're assuming that your HVAC system is one system capable of maintaining a rather narrow range of temperatures. But it's not one system, it's two which have likely been manufactured by two different companies. And the best you can hope for from either system is that they roughly maintain the temperature you asked for. The only common components are the thermostat and the ducts (assuming they're both forced air). Expecting the Nest to maintain exactly 73 all day is unreasonable, and I challenge you to find any commercially available thermostat that can do it.

No I got your point. I'm not suggesting that nest maintain the temperature at exactly 73 degrees. What I want it to do is be smarter about what it can do. I should only have to put in a target range of 73 degrees, and nest should be able to figure out the best way to maintain that temperature within the parameters of the equipment it has to work with. Nest accurately identifies my system in software, it "learns", so therefore it should understand the limitations of the system. I want the temperature to be around 73 degrees give or take a couple of degrees during operation. When the exterior temperature begins to rise without the heating unit being in operation, I shouldn't have to wait until the temperature reaches 4 degrees hotter than the desired range before the system does anything about it, and vice versa when the temperature starts dropping without the the aid of the cooling system. I feel like the proverbial frog cooking to death in a pot of water slowly being brought to a boil.

Last night I came in to an uncomfortably warm house, despite the geofencing, and scheduled temperature adjustment, because the day was unusually warm. As it's been unusually cold recently, I had the scheduled temperature set at 73 heat, and the mandated minimum of 76 cool. When I arrived home, it was 76, the air not having been on at all as it was stagnant and stale. Obviously I didn't need the heat to be on at all, and the AC should have kicked in to bring the temperature down to 73. Indeed, when connected to the internet, my thermostat knows the outside temperature, so at a minimum, it could use that to calculate adjustments as to which mode and temperature range I'd prefer on a hot day vs. a cool day -- and that's without changing a thing about this mandatory 3-4 degree temperature spread it imposes. And that's my point. For all the marketing of being a smart thermostat, I still have to interface with it almost as much if not more than I used to with my old manual system. About the only advantage is that the geofencing seems to work which provides a certain energy savings, and the fact that it will switch into automatic heat and cool modes in the morning and at bedtime to achieve the desired temperatures. Everything in between is a constant struggle so far.

Moreover, the system imposes a 2-3 minute pause between shifting between heating and cooling systems. So it has a lot of time to figure out what's going on, and decide which system and settings best suit the needs of the space. Heck, I'd be happy with a 5 or 10 minute pause between activating systems if that meant it could accurately anywise the environmental conditions and apply the proper solution to maintaining a 72-74 degree comfort zone.

 

[imola.zhp]

No I got your point. I'm not suggesting that nest maintain the temperature at exactly 73 degrees. What I want it to do is be smarter about what it can do. I should only have to put in a target range of 73 degrees, and nest should be able to figure out the best way to maintain that temperature within the parameters of the equipment it has to work with. Nest accurately identifies my system in software, it "learns", so therefore it should understand the limitations of the system. I want the temperature to be around 73 degrees give or take a couple of degrees during operation. When the exterior temperature begins to rise without the heating unit being in operation, I shouldn't have to wait until the temperature reaches 4 degrees hotter than the desired range before the system does anything about it, and vice versa when the temperature starts dropping without the the aid of the cooling system. I feel like the proverbial frog cooking to death in a pot of water slowly being brought to a boil.

Last night I came in to an uncomfortably warm house, despite the geofencing, and scheduled temperature adjustment, because the day was unusually warm. As it's been unusually cold recently, I had the scheduled temperature set at 73 heat, and the mandated minimum of 76 cool. When I arrived home, it was 76, the air not having been on at all as it was stagnant and stale. Obviously I didn't need the heat to be on at all, and the AC should have kicked in to bring the temperature down to 73. Indeed, when connected to the internet, my thermostat knows the outside temperature, so at a minimum, it could use that to calculate adjustments as to which mode and temperature range I'd prefer on a hot day vs. a cool day -- and that's without changing a thing about this mandatory 3-4 degree temperature spread it imposes. And that's my point. For all the marketing of being a smart thermostat, I still have to interface with it almost as much if not more than I used to with my old manual system. About the only advantage is that the geofencing seems to work which provides a certain energy savings, and the fact that it will switch into automatic heat and cool modes in the morning and at bedtime to achieve the desired temperatures. Everything in between is a constant struggle so far.

Moreover, the system imposes a 2-3 minute pause between shifting between heating and cooling systems. So it has a lot of time to figure out what's going on, and decide which system and settings best suit the needs of the space. Heck, I'd be happy with a 5 or 10 minute pause between activating systems if that meant it could accurately anywise the environmental conditions and apply the proper solution to maintaining a 72-74 degree comfort zone.

Sounds like you are blaming the thermostat for you not putting it in Heat-Cool mode as opposed to just Heat mode. Believe it or not if Heat-Cool was the only mode there would be consumers that would be upset that they didn't have control over which mode the thermostat was in, so offering both is suppose to cover both bases. I suggest you always use Heat-Cool mode if that is what your use-case requires. I had a similar thing happen yesterday, it got warm in the house late afternoon so I turned it from heat to cool to knock out the humidity. This morning I woke up and the thermostat was still in Cool mode and it was 62 in the house. I didn't get mad at the thermostat, I laughed at myself for not having chosen the proper selection from those at hand. I should have put it in Heat-Cool mode for these warm afternoons and cool nights we have been having. I kicked on the heat and started my morning workout routine, went about my day and after reading and replying to this message I just pulled up the app and put it in Heat-Cool mode.

 

[Mac 128]

Sounds like you are blaming the thermostat for you not putting it in Heat-Cool mode as opposed to just Heat mode. Believe it or not if Heat-Cool was the only mode there would be consumers that would be upset that they didn't have control over which mode the thermostat was in, so offering both is suppose to cover both bases. I suggest you always use Heat-Cool mode if that is what your use-case requires. I had a similar thing happen yesterday, it got warm in the house late afternoon so I turned it from heat to cool to knock out the humidity. This morning I woke up and the thermostat was still in Cool mode and it was 62 in the house. I didn't get mad at the thermostat, I laughed at myself for not having chosen the proper selection from those at hand. I should have put it in Heat-Cool mode for these warm afternoons and cool nights we have been having. I kicked on the heat and started my morning workout routine, went about my day and after reading and replying to this message I just pulled up the app and put it in Heat-Cool mode.

Again, I'm not afraid to take personal responsibility here. I had a manual thermostat, and tended to it throughout the day. What so-called "smart" thermostats purport to do is allow the customer to walk away from those tedious chores. Nest offers a heating and cooling mode as a feature to handle such things. And I paid over $200 for those conveniences, as opposed to maybe $50 for my current programmable thermostat, to say nothing of a cheap manual thermostat that does the job beautifully. I don't think I'm being unreasonable to expect it to do more than a regular programmable thermostat, when it actually has the capability, especially considering the price. We clearly differ in opinion here, unless there's a misunderstanding, which in re-reading it seems there is. I bought the Nest thermostat exclusively for the heat/cool mode. I use it exclusively (never using heat only or cool only), and it's the limitations of that feature that I'm not happy with. Had I know, I could have kept my programable thermostat and kept going the old fashioned way.

However, Nest has sold me on the idea of a smart thermostat, so I will be on the lookout for one in the future that comes closer to what I want it to do.

 

[peter2]

What are you talking about? If you don't want the Nest to EVER be internet connected, simply don't connect it to the internet when prompted. It will work out of the box as a... wait for it... thermostat! You will loose remote monitoring capabilities but it will still learn your schedule and help you save money on your utility bills.

This is also what would happen if Nest disappeared or closed their doors tomorrow, your thermostat wouldn't need to go into the trash, it would just go on working as a... wait for it... thermostat! Which, if you never wanted it connected to the internet in the first place, wouldn't concern you anyway. Nest still supports all 3 generations of their product, I think they started in 2011. I don't see them going anywhere soon, especially now that they are owned by Google.

But by all means, keep going through life with those concerns.

Why exactly should I buy a remote-control enabled thermostat if I am to use it without that functionality? What I was saying was that I want to be able to run the infrastructure needed for remote access so that it is vendor independent, i.e. on my server if I choose so.

With regard to nest/google being here for a long time: https://www.wired.com/2016/04/nests-hub-shutdown-proves-youre-crazy-buy-internet-things/

That is the sort of thing I want to avoid and the way to avoid it is not to create demand (=buy) these forever-vendor-dependent devices.

 

[aristobrat]

What I was saying was that I want to be able to run the infrastructure needed for remote access so that it is vendor independent, i.e. on my server if I choose so.

But it's not just the remote access part that relies on the vendor...

For these devices to work as they do, there is a whole bunch of compute that happens on the vendors' end.

These thermostats regularly report operational data back to the vendors infrastructure, where it gets parsed/logged. It's the vendors' infrastructure -- not your thermostat -- that sends the emails if it notices something wrong with your performance (i.e. your HVAC has been running for three hours with no change to the indoor temperature). It's the vendors' infrastructure -- not your thermostat -- where your run-time data is compiled into usable reports for you, with history going back several years. It's the vendors' infrastructure -- not your thermostat -- that lets you compare your systems performance to that of others with similar systems/setups. It's the vendors' infrastructure that formats real-time weather information and feeds it back to the thermostats. Same for pushing firmware updates. And I'm sure there are probably ten more things I'm forgetting about.

Moving the compute to an app that can run on someone's home server is surely possible, ... I just don't think there's even remotely enough interest in that to make for a business case, though. And I say that as someone who would be interested in a project like that, assuming it'd run on something like a Raspberry Pi, which only costs a few pennies to keep running 24/7.

 

[imola.zhp]

Why exactly should I buy a remote-control enabled thermostat if I am to use it without that functionality? What I was saying was that I want to be able to run the infrastructure needed for remote access so that it is vendor independent, i.e. on my server if I choose so.

With regard to nest/google being here for a long time: https://www.wired.com/2016/04/nests-hub-shutdown-proves-youre-crazy-buy-internet-things/

That is the sort of thing I want to avoid and the way to avoid it is not to create demand (=buy) these forever-vendor-dependent devices.

Best of luck with that!

 

[NightFox]

Thanks. This sounds like it's just for air conditioning units though. We have two zone central a/c and natural gas forced hot air. Thus, I think my only choices are Nest, Ecobee, and Honeywell.

Tado° is primarily about heating (a/c was something they only started doing more recently), but if you're in the US it may be that they're not yet compatible with US-heating systems, so sorry about the false steer.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Yeah I've been thinking the same thing. Just running hard wires from attic to roof. More reliable and more versatile. I'm sick of my nest cameras...

Mike are your Nest Cams disconnecting from the wifi? If I do the wired cam system I'll update you on how easy/hard the install went.

 

[aristobrat]

I've about given up on all of these cloud cameras. I'm just going to get up in attic and drop BNC cables and go with a wired camera/NVR setup.

That's what I've slowly been doing, but with IP cameras (so I've been running network cables instead of BNC ones).

If you're looking for a forum like MacRumors (but for IP cameras), check out www.ipcamtalk.com It's an active forum full of helpful folks looking to create their own systems (detailed for their houses) vs. buying prepackaged "box systems" (like from Costco or online vendors like Nelly's).

From reading new posts over there daily for the past few months, I've gone from "clueless" to feeling pretty confident about the system I'm putting in around the exterior of my house (Dahua IPC-HDW5231R-Z turrets).

 

[nuckinfutz]

@aristobrat awesome I've been looking for a good source for IP Cameras. There are a lot of sites but not many lively ones discussing the newest stuff. Thanks for the link. I like the idea of running Ethernet and POE that gives me a lot of choices to upgrade when I want.

 

[parseckadet]

No I got your point.

You think you did, but you clearly didn't. My point was that your HVAC system (your furnace and A/C combined) AS A WHOLE is not capable of maintaining such a narrow temperature range. The Nest, or any thermostat, can only work with the tools it's been given. What you're expecting is equivalent to giving an engineer a yard stick and then asking him to measure something to the nearest micrometer.

Best of luck with that!

Some people just believe what they want to believe, and no amount of reason will persuade them.

 

[imola.zhp]

Some people just believe what they want to believe, and no amount of reason will persuade them.

Agreed, I have been using Nest since 2011 (save for about 3 months that I tried Ecobee), that's 6 years worth of savings and convenience. I don't understand why anyone would go through life so concerned about a device that (in the grand scheme of things) doesn't really cost that much, even at MSRP which I didn't pay for either of mine. It has likely already paid for itself a time or two in utility savings. The convenience of monitoring usage and being able to adjust the temperature remotely are just icing on the cake.