Neverland Ranch CLOSED

[Deepdale]

Where's the proof that all these things happened? Oh that's right, he's a single guy who doesn't look like everyone else with a lot of money... he must be guilty then.

I was not present at Neverland when MJ supposedly took advantage of the minors in question, but what is worthy of remembering is that there inevitably comes a point when all aspects of a person's demeanor have to be judged. In my view, it is awfully difficult to extend to MJ the benefit of the doubt given multiple charges leveled against him and years of increasingly bizarre behavior.

Being acquitted (and this is equally true for Simpson) is no more a blanket statement wiping the slate clean and declaring the person to be pure and innocent, but just a harsh realization that the system is designed to afford maximum protections to defendants in criminal actions facing severe consequences such as loss of personal freedom.

Sometimes everything works well, other times it fails in the most abysmal ways. Nonetheless, society survives and we move on. Juries are notorious for discounting solid evidence for reasons that serve other agendas, and there is little the judicial system can do other than live with an imperfect system designed to protect each of us. Warts and all, what we have is far superior to what exists in many other parts of the world.

 

[MacNut]

Where's the proof that all these things happened? Oh that's right, he's a single guy who doesn't look like everyone else with a lot of money... he must be guilty then.

Let me ask you one question, Would you allow your kids to spend the night alone with Michael Jackson in his bedroom?

 

[Deepdale]

Would you allow your kids to spend the night alone with Michael Jackson in his bedroom?

Best overnight guest to spend the night alone in the wacko's bedroom would be one of Steve Irwin's pals ...

 

[chaos86]

I am an Australian living in America. Let me mediate.

To the Americans: Jackson looks incredibly guilty, but he wasn't found guilty, so according to those documents you idolise so much (Constitution and Bill of Rights), he should be treated as Innocent. [rant]To explain my comment about the founding documents: Every first world country has a bill of rights and a constitution-like document, and you weren't the first to have one. The only difference is you have that 2nd amendment and, as a result, a much higher gun-mortality rate. Oh, and theres no such thing as an American Dream, its a first-world-country dream. America wasn't the only continent that saw a huge immigration in the last 300 years. [/rant]

To the Australian guy: Our media is just as biased as the American media. Our universal idea that America is a country full of whiny bitches who sue for 'sneezing' and other such stupid problems is based on facts yes, but we must compare them to facts about ourselves. I can't be bothered searching for it now, but the 'Frivolous Lawsuits per Capita' ratio is actually higher in Australia than in the US, it just doesn't seem that way because statistically we sue each other, they sue big corporations, so it appears in their and own media more.

 

[MacNut]

I am an Australian living in America. Let me mediate.

To the Americans: Jackson looks incredibly guilty, but he wasn't found guilty, so according to those documents you idolise so much (Constitution and Bill of Rights), he should be treated as Innocent. [rant]To explain my comment about the founding documents: Every first world country has a bill of rights and a constitution-like document, and you weren't the first to have one. The only difference is you have that 2nd amendment and, as a result, a much higher gun-mortality rate. Oh, and theres no such thing as an American Dream, its a first-world-country dream. America wasn't the only continent that saw a huge immigration in the last 300 years. [/rant]

To the Australian guy: Our media is just as biased as the American media. Our universal idea that America is a country full of whiny bitches who sue for 'sneezing' and other such stupid problems is based on facts yes, but we must compare them to facts about ourselves. I can't be bothered searching for it now, but the 'Frivolous Lawsuits per Capita' ratio is actually higher in Australia than in the US, it just doesn't seem that way because statistically we sue each other, they sue big corporations, so it appears in their and own media more.

Sorry but I don't follow how its alright in any country for a grown man to fondle a little boys areas,
Our system isn't perfect by a long shot but in America another saying says if you have lots of money you can get away with anything

 

[dornoforpyros]

OK, I bought it. Now what do I do with it?

Hire Hugh Hefner to re-decorate!

 

[chaos86]

Sorry but I don't follow how its alright in any country for a grown man to fondle a little boys areas,
Our system isn't perfect by a long shot but in America another saying says if you have lots of money you can get away with anything

its never right to fondle children, but a jury of his (and our) peers found him innocent because of reasonable doubt. either they got paid off/star struck (the second half of your comment), or there really was not enough evidence against him, or enough evidence for him, to make him innocent/not proven guilty. as per the US constitution.

 

[MacNut]

its never right to fondle children, but a jury of his (and our) peers found him innocent because of reasonable doubt. either they got paid off/star struck (the second half of your comment), or there really was not enough evidence against him, or enough evidence for him, to make him innocent/not proven guilty. as per the US constitution.

This brings me to the question, would you allow your kids to be alone with Michael Jackson for a sleep over.

 

[chaos86]

This brings me to the question, would you allow your kids to be alone with Michael Jackson for a sleep over.

^&%* NO



EDIT: then again, i wouldnt let my kids go anywhere without me, or someone I trusted a lot.

 

[MacNut]

^&%* NO

I thought he was innocent tho?

 

[chaos86]

I thought he was innocent tho?

found innocent by a jury of his peers. i have to treat him the same as any other person on the street, but on his property or mine is very different. edit: i wouldnt let you be alone with my kids either.

 

[MacNut]

Take out the celebrity factor do you think he is a molester or not. If he was Joe average would he be in jail right now?

 

[chaos86]

Take out the celebrity factor do you think he is a molester or not. If he was Joe average would he be in jail right now?

thats just the problem, we'll never know. the celebrity factor may have been what made the jury side with him, but it also may have been why he was on trial in the first place. think about it. poor or greedy family wants money, lives nearby, decides that the famous, loaded, weirdo down the street is the perfect target for a lawsuit. I doubt its true, but if he was a target of a greedy family for his money, the the celebrity factor was what made him the target.

bottom line, based on the evidence that filtered out of the courtroom, through the biased media, to me, I think he's guilty, but i dont know what really went on in that courtroom or in his *shudder* bedroom.

im going to bed to have nightmares about my kids. goodnight all.

 

[Abstract]

I don't even trust this man with his own kids, let alone someone elses.

Why do you think Jackson had kids? Oh yes, so that he never has to get takeout.

 

[Doctor Q]

found innocent by a jury of his peers. i have to treat him the same as any other person on the street...

Is that really the case?

In some situations, such as in further legal actions or in a job hiring situation, you might be required by law to treat him equally with other people, but aren't you perfectly free to consider him guilty personally, and refuse to deal with him or give him any benefit of the doubt, based on nothing more than your own opinion?

 

[AppleTalk Aust]

..... but what is worthy of remembering is that there inevitably comes a point when all aspects of a person's demeanor have to be judged. In my view, it is awfully difficult to extend to MJ the benefit of the doubt given multiple charges leveled against him and years of increasingly bizarre behavior....

Like I said he must be guilty because he doesn't fit the accepted social pattern

I do not believe he did anything to any of those kids. I think his mistake was that he truly believed he could have kids over to his place to share his generosity with and unfortunately he discovered the world is a nasty place with people out to get what they can at the expense of someone else's kindness.

I believe MJ wanted to give something special to kids who are less fortunate, but he was slapped in the face too many times (none of the convictions stuck and that was in accordance to the all powerful U.S. law) and I say good luck to him for turning his back on an ungrateful country.

 

[Deepdale]

MJ wanted to give something special to kids who are less fortunate

There are better gifts than a lifetime of required therapy.

I say good luck to him for turning his back on an ungrateful country.

And I say thank you for taking the traveling freak show to Bahrain.

 

[Abstract]

(none of the convictions stuck and that was in accordance to the all powerful U.S. law)

Haha, "all powerful." Outsiders laugh at the "justice" delivered by the US outside AND within America. "Not convicted" doesn't mean "not guilty." You can't prove that he was innocent just like nobody can prove that he was guilty with 100% certainty. Since that's what you need to convict someone, and that would be nearly impossible in cases like this, we can always be sure that we'll never know if you were correct, and you'll never know if we were correct. However, that doesn't mean he didn't do it. With so much against him --- his character, his behaviour, his "extracurriculars" with little boys --- he's more likely guilty than anything else. Its just that nobody can prove that to be 100% true......"beyond reasonable doubt" as they say......but they probably made people 99% sure.

It's just like with R. Kelly. The man even had sex ON TAPE with a 14 year old girl, pee'd on little girls during sex, and had 80-90 pieces of kiddie porn on his computer, and he was still freed of all charges in 2 different states (Illinois and Florida). Yeah, the same justice system freed that freak as well. Nice job.

Again, "not guilty" in the eyes of the law doesn't mean "not guilty" in reality.

 

[Deepdale]

... "beyond reasonable doubt" as they say......but they probably made people 99% sure. ... Again, "not guilty" in the eyes of the law doesn't mean "not guilty" in reality.

The "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of proof in criminal statutes is there for a perfectly valid reason. We, as a civil society, do not want to lock people away on any type of casual accusation. The problem is that many people have come to associate circumstantial cases (the majority of which fall under that umbrella) as being inherently weak ones. That is a complete fallacy.

When juries look for what they believe is the perfect case, not only are they not likely to find it, but it also opens them up to heavily discounting evidence and testimony as it is presented to them for evaluation purposes. Most crimes are not videotaped by those involved ... it is normal for any given juror to have some doubt about any defendant's culpability, but beyond a reasonable doubt is interpreted by some jurors as a 1% doubt (perhaps even less by others). As President Clinton would have said, "It's all in how you define the meaning of the word reasonable."

 

[Abstract]

When juries look for what they believe is the perfect case, not only are they not likely to find it, but it also opens them up to heavily discounting evidence and testimony as it is presented to them for evaluation purposes. Most crimes are not videotaped by those involved ... it is normal for any given juror to have some doubt about any defendant's culpability, but beyond a reasonable doubt is interpreted by some jurors as a 1% doubt (perhaps even less by others). As President Clinton would have said, "It's all in how you define the meaning of the word reasonable."

Yeah, that was my point, although I didn't want to get too deeply into what I meant.

Crimes like this can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in most cases. There isn't always semen, and there isn't always video evidence. What happens then? You get people to testify and hope they tell the truth. Unfortunately, the people who are testifying "might" be lying, so that's not "beyond doubt." While it's true that people might be lying, then how on Earth are you gonna get the guilty into jail on these types of charges.

 

[liketom]

i think they should tear the place down and start again!
Even thought he got away with it - i think he did do them crimes

MJ is in the same scum league as Gary Glitter and i think they should be both be chucked in prison for a very long long time ie -Life

 

[chaos86]

man, reading the first page of this thread i was laughing my ass off. why'd we have to go all serious?

 

[kretzy]

Where's the proof that all these things happened? Oh that's right, he's a single guy who doesn't look like everyone else with a lot of money... he must be guilty then.

Sorry mate, but the guy's a complete nut.

- He changed the colour of his skin
- Had extreme plastic surgery (I think to look like Elizabeth Taylor)
- Named one of his children Blanket who I might add he hung over a balcony because he was "excited"
- Wants to be like Peter Pan and lives/d in a place called Neverland with rides and all sorts of other childish things
- Has had extremely strange relationships with wives/maids/monkeys/little boys
- Wore that face mask because he was scared of getting sick
- Has no self control when it comes to money

The list could go on and on and on, and based on that he is more than just "a single guy who doesn't look like everyone else with a lot of money", he is a weirdo who I think would be fully capable of molesting children.

 

[Doctor Q]

Most crimes are not videotaped by those involved ...

And we Mac users know that videos can be edited/doctored, leaving an opening to dispute even recorded events.

Sorry you missed the party on Saturday, chaos86.

 

[BornAgainMac]

Sorry mate, but the guy's a complete nut.

Plus he is a Rock star. Normally rock stars have women all the time at the house. Also his last two wives weren't that attractive. They were basically shoehorned into his life to distract the fact that he likes little boys.