New 2014 Mac Mini Has Soldered RAM, Not User Replaceable

[Digital Skunk]

Maybe for some. I really love most of apples hardware. I've only ever bought laptops from Apple and so far and imo you don't pay THAT much more for an apple laptop vs a similar PC laptop (at least last time I priced it out) but with Apple you always get way better exterior hardware (?) by that I mean the case, keyboard, MagSafe, design etc.

I do also love the OS...

It's good stuff but I have a bias toward the HP and Dell high end workstations and workstation towers. They are priced higher than most Macs but are even enter built last longer and have the best warranties in the industry.

So far I've seen nothing that can beat an HP Elitebook mobile workstation in terms of performance specs and build quality. You do end up dropping $3k for it but they also last forever.

Then you have the Dell Covet which is dumb thick but is the only mobile workstation if buy.

Most of the consumer stuff is nice and equally priced but I agree its a toss up compared to the Macs.

 

[mcarling]

You have a higher standard of tech savvyness than I do. And by your standards, you're right. Only people with Steve Wozniak, Bill Gates, Linus Torvalds levels of knowledge would be considered savvy. And there probably are less than a million people out there who can claim that.

That's not the standard I had in mind at all. There are probably fewer than one thousand in that class.

there are a lot more people like me than there are Richard Stallman.

No doubt.

I was calling into question your assertion that there are less than a million people out there who truly know computers. You made a bold statement, and I basically said "yeah, back it up".

There is a big difference between "[your statement contains] lots of assumptions" and "yeah, back it up". I take it you have backed off from your assertion that my statement contains "lots of assumptions".

We could argue this down to the minutiae if you really wanted to, but I'm still gonna stand by my statement that not everyone is a complete idiot when it comes to computers. There are a lot of knowledgeable people out there, and historically, those people have bought Macs.

I don't think anyone is disputing that "not everyone is a complete idiot when it comes to computers" but there is a big difference between "not a complete idiot" and "tech savvy". No doubt that the average Mac buyer is both more intelligent and better informed than the average PeeCee buyer but that is far short of "the greatest majority of Mac owners are generally tech savvy people" which is where this little disagreement arose. The least tech savvy consumers are often attracted to Macs rather than Peecees (rhymes with feces) because Macs "just work".

 

[reyesmac]

Chickens will come home to roost

So what happens when a non tech savvy Mac Mini customer who bought it for the price needs to upgrade his computer for whatever reason and finds he can't? Sad? Angry? I don't think this will be a loyal customer anymore and when he goes to look for an alternative computer to upgrade to he will find a PC with way more speed and upgradability, and a graphics card and Windows 10 which won't stink like Windows 8 does. Apple will make short term gain but lose loyalty in the long term. But the bean counters probably calculated they could make more money from the new customer than the loyal one.

 

[krravi]

399 quid for the basic "entry level" model? Dream on Mapple - folks can get a very decent pc for that, and with Windows 10 looking to be around twenty quid next year... you're really pushing it.

I'm really enjoying my newly rekindled relationship with Microsoft and Nokia products. Apple, not only are you bland and boring, you're exploiting people. Time for a new world for me.

Well said Moto man. I just got a Dell Precision Xeon workstation and am loving the build quality and Windows 8. Windows 8 did take me a while to get used to but in the end its an acquired taste. Windows 10 looks awesome.

 

[majkom]

LOL apple, seriously? update from 500GB spinner to fussion (apple adds 128GB SSD and gives you little bit more spinner) cost more than buying myself 500GB SSD.. wtf????

 

[mcarling]

So what happens when a non tech savvy Mac Mini customer how bought it for the price needs to upgrade his computer for whatever reason and finds he can't? Sad? Angry? I don't think this will be a loyal customer anymore and when he goes to look for an alternative computer to upgrade to he will find a PC with way more speed and upgradability, and a graphics card and Windows 10 which won't stink like Windows 8 does. Apple will make short term gains but lose loyalty in the long term. But the bean counters are becoming more in charge of Apple and they probably calculated they could make more money from the new customer than the loyal one.

The PeeCee makers will soon follow Apple with directly soldered DRAM. By about 2020, no one will be making computers that accept DIMMs.

 

[Renzatic]

I didn't actually post that to invite to more arguments lol. But ok, to me a lot of this comes across as hand waving. The size of your computer or the amount of RAM you have say very little about how capable your are, or how tech savvy you are, or how hard the problems you work with are.

Oh, I can definitely agree with that.

Really, I can also kind of agree that we're getting to the point where raw specs don't matter so much anymore, nor should they (save for specialized cases). You buy a computer at a certain price, and it'll likely do what you want it to do. I believe this is Apple's line of thinking, and really, I'm all for that. No one likes having to dig through three dozen nearly identical computer models with randomly fluctuating prices to see which one gives you the best bang for the buck. We're all at that point where we just pick the one option out of three that works best for us, and be done with it.

...thing is, Apple's prices on ram and drives make me want to complain about them making their machines difficult to impossible to upgrade. If you're going to overcharge, at least give those of us who know you're overcharging the ability to go around you.

 

[Smeaton1724]

Did it really hurt Apple having a low cost, RAM replaceable, SSD/HDD replaceable system? No, it brought some people across from windows who will never ever ever buy an iMac or Mac Pro. They look at those upgrade prices and just laugh and walk away. Then the tinkerers, you know those that year in year out buy the most tech, then cascade down to family.

I had the Mac mini quad upgraded to 16GB RAM, the 4GB spare went in to a MacBook Pro 13 to keep that going reasonably. That 13 is now running 10.10 and the user may buy Apps from the App Store. The slow 1TB HDD I took out of the Mac Mini and replaced with an SSD is being used to store iPad and iPhone backups. Everything feeds from each other.

The Mac mini was the equivalent of the iPod - it attracted people to Apple and from that they buy iPads, iPhones etc etc.

Apple seem to be forgetting this in a massive way and it will start to hurt, technology is getting saturated, phones are lasting longer, iPads are on longer user upgrade cycles.

Apple seems to have forgot that people need enticing into the Eco system, simply saying "wow how awesome and magic everything we do is" is a good soundbite (personally the word magical makes me cringe but up to now the products have served me well for 20 years) but some of the decisions like this, the iPad mini 3 upgrade etc those are things that erode the brand in the longer term.

 

[majkom]

Oh, I can definitely agree with that.

Really, I can also kind of agree that we're getting to the point where raw specs don't matter so much anymore, nor should they (save for specialized cases). You buy a computer at a certain price, and it'll likely do what you want it to do. I believe this is Apple's line of thinking, and really, I'm all for that. No one likes having to dig through three dozen nearly identical computer models with randomly fluctuating prices to see which one gives you the best bang for the buck. We're all at that point where we just pick the one option out of three that works best for us, and be done with it.

...thing is, Apple's prices on ram and drives make me want to complain about them making their machines difficult to impossible to upgrade. If you're going to overcharge, at least give those of us who know you're overcharging the ability to go around you.

THIS! majority of us complaining could live with soldered RAMS and apple specific SSDs if upgrade prices were not so much overpriced... but buying mac mini even basic one with fussion and 8gigs ram makes this computer too expensive for what you get...

 

[Digital Skunk]

The PeeCee makers will soon follow Apple with directly soldered DRAM. By about 2020, no one will be making computers that accept DIMMs.

This won't happen at all. Dell and HP and Lenovo make their money from enterprise markets. Those markets don't have time to replace an entire mobo just to fix RAM.

 

[Renzatic]

That's not the standard I had in mind at all. There are probably fewer than one thousand in that class.

There is a big difference between "[your statement contains] lots of assumptions" and "yeah, back it up". I take it you have backed off from your assertion that my statement contains "lots of assumptions".

Yeah, I guess I am. I'd say now it's more an issue of us having different standards to what constitutes "tech savvy", with your bar being set a little higher than mine.

Really, my biggest problem are the people here who continually say "the vast majority of people who buy Macs don't care about specs", and I'm saying a more than a goodly portion do. Not because more=gooder, but because they need a certain specced computer to be able to do the things they want to do with it. I initially lumped you in with them, and we ended up going off in an entirely different direction.

 

[mcarling]

Really, I can also kind of agree that we're getting to the point where raw specs don't matter so much anymore, nor should they (save for specialized cases). You buy a computer at a certain price, and it'll likely do what you want it to do. I believe this is Apple's line of thinking, and really, I'm all for that. No one likes having to dig through three dozen nearly identical computer models with randomly fluctuating prices to see which one gives you the best bang for the buck. We're all at that point where we just pick the one option out of three that works best for us, and be done with it.

I completely agree up to this point.

...thing is, Apple's prices on ram and drives make me want to complain about them making their machines difficult to impossible to upgrade. If you're going to overcharge, at least give those of us who know you're overcharging the ability to go around you.

I'm sympathetic. I would also prefer to pay less for DRAM and SSD capacity. I would prefer to pay less for just about everything I buy. That's normal. Apple are charging what the market will bear in a semi-competitive market. Also normal. Apple's marginal price point has been $25/GB for additional DRAM for a while now, but DRAM prices have not been falling much the last few years. Apple's DRAM prices will eventually drop when the market price of DRAM drops. The problem is that the manufacturers are not adding DDR3 capacity because the switch from DDR3 to DDR4 is starting. DDR3 supplies are constrained and DDR4 is not yet in play.

I remember when memory cost $1 per byte (yes, per byte). So $25 per gigabyte doesn't seem expensive to me, even though the wholesale price is about $7 per gigabyte. When the wholesale price falls below about $5 per gigabyte, expect Apple to lower their prices.

 

[alvindarkness]

Yep, thats me. I no longer recommend Apple's to friends/family. A computer can be easy to use and configurable/upgradable at the same time. However, Apple forgot about me, a power user that 80% of the time likes the ease of use, but every once in a while needs to do something different.

All I want is one top-of-the-line computer that is upgradable and powerful. Thats right make the CPU and RAM changeable in the very top, highest price, Mac Mini. That would work for me. Give me a 17 inch Mac Book display, again top price is fine. Make 12 inch screens and throwaway computer cubes for the masses. That way everyone wins.

But now I am slowly bracing for my next laptop being Windows or Linux. I know its going to suck, but I can't really afford to continue to spend money with a company that has abandoned me.

Im in the same boat. And ironically am using linux on a little atom motherboard while my MBP 2011 is getting reballed after 2 reflows that didnt last long. Ah apple, thanks for supporting one of your customers who spent $2500 on a laptop 2 years ago, after your own design/manufacturing flaw has stranded a bunch of us with unusable laptops.

But more to the point, I've also got a lot of friends and family on board the Apple train, but I am not recommending them anymore. I cant find a single desktop product in their line I would want to buy personally now. I cant even find a reasonable laptop replacement for the money in their line. The only thing that keeps me onboard is some entanglement in their ecosystem, and that OSX is such a darn good operating system. But if I can manage to get away from Apple without too much effort and long term inconvenience I definitely will.

 

[wizard]

The PeeCee makers will soon follow Apple with directly soldered DRAM. By about 2020, no one will be making computers that accept DIMMs.

This is so true! That RAM might not be soldered to the motherboard either. Intel is already working on building RAM right into the processor modules. I'm not talking Iris Plus here but 16 GB of RAM.

 

[dilbert99]

Directly soldered DRAM is simpler than using SO-DIMMs. I think everyone can agree on that, right?

I'm not sure where you get the simpler from.

Apple have a motherboard with a slot on it and they slot in some memory modules. Hardly rocket science...

I was more looking for an answer like having the ram soldered means that the ram is x cm closer to the cpu so a speed up, which I can't see is the case...

 

[mcarling]

Dell and HP and Lenovo make their money from enterprise markets. Those markets don't have time to replace an entire mobo just to fix RAM.

I've worked in enterprise IT departments. They don't have time to fix desktop computers at all. It's going in the direction of replacing computers, not fixing them. They don't want lemons. The broken computers will get sold off to companies who will fix as many as they can and sell them second hand to tinkerers. Enterprise IT departments increasingly don't care at all about replaceable components.

 

[melendezest]

You mean the Android that is being redesigned shortly and will look almost exactly like iOS 7/8?

I cannot comment on future products. I switched to Android when iOS 7 came out.

My comment was a critique on iOS, or rather, Apple's design sense.

If Windows X is good, I might have to switch complete ecosystems as well.

I can't believe the day has come where I prefer Microsoft's (software) design-sense over Apple's.

 

[Tunster]

I don't see what the fuss is about. Everyone knows that the industry is going this way (and Apple having started to do this for a lot of their products).

For how Apple are marketing the Mac Mini, it's the ultimate first Mac experience on a budget. Okay, a spinny hard-drive plus slower mobile processor may seem daft, but then; it's clockable up to 2.7Ghz. That enables Apple to entice people who want to be a bit more greener with a desktop machine. It's clever and any new entrant into the Apple product streams; this will give users a great experience of OS X for general day-to-day stuff. Everyone knows you have to pay for better hardware when looking at Apple products. Savvy users will pay those odds and people shouldn't be cynical here. We accept that to go from 16GB to 64GB to 128GB iPhones is silly, but there's nothing else you can do. Like it or lump it and sales of this new Mac Mini will tell the story. It's definitely not for hobbyists or professionals.

For me personally, I'd advice people to purchase the entry model plus 8GB memory if they wanted a first-time Mac computer; and then put in an SSD myself. As long as Apple haven't stopped people doing that, I don't see what the issue is.

 

[wizard]

This won't happen at all. Dell and HP and Lenovo make their money from enterprise markets. Those markets don't have time to replace an entire mobo just to fix RAM.

It will happen.

Further I have to wonder if people realize that many of Intel mobile processors only address 16GB of RAM. You might not be able to upgrade some of these machines no matter what Apple does.

 

[mcarling]

I'm not sure where you get the simpler from.

Really? Eliminating the socket and the row of contacts results in simpler.

Apple have a motherboard with a slot on it and they slot in some memory modules. Hardly rocket science...

I don't recall anyone saying that DIMMs are rocket science.

I was more looking for an answer like having the ram soldered means that the ram is x cm closer to the cpu so a speed up, which I can't see is the case...

No speed up for DDR3 or DDR4 from eliminating DIMMs, but most of the next generation technologies competing to replace DDR4 will require eliminating DIMMs in order to advance performance.

 

[melendezest]

Im in the same boat. And ironically am using linux on a little atom motherboard while my MBP 2011 is getting reballed after 2 reflows that didnt last long. Ah apple, thanks for supporting one of your customers who spent $2500 on a laptop 2 years ago, after your own design/manufacturing flaw has stranded a bunch of us with unusable laptops.

But more to the point, I've also got a lot of friends and family on board the Apple train, but I am not recommending them anymore. I cant find a single desktop product in their line I would want to buy personally now. I cant even find a reasonable laptop replacement for the money in their line. The only thing that keeps me onboard is some entanglement in their ecosystem, and that OSX is such a darn good operating system. But if I can manage to get away from Apple without too much effort and long term inconvenience I definitely will.

I am in the exact same boat (train?) you are. There is nothing they currently make that I want. NOTHING.

It used to be that I wanted everything they put out.

My, how things change.

 

[69650]

Well said Moto man. I just got a Dell Precision Xeon workstation and am loving the build quality and Windows 8. Windows 8 did take me a while to get used to but in the end its an acquired taste. Windows 10 looks awesome.

Windows 8 is horrible. It takes me ages to change the settings and it still keeps crashing my programs even after I went out and bought a new machine. It's not intuitive at all. I've not seen Windows 10 but it can't possibly be any worse.

Getting away from Windows was the sole reason I bought a Mac in the first place. If Microsoft actually manage to get it right for once then I think we'll see far fewer switchers. People used to buy a Mac because they looked a lot more stylish than the boring beige PC. That's not the case any more, there are lots of stylish PC's now that look just a nice as the Mac for a lot less money, and they're usually upgradable.

 

[alvindarkness]

I am in the exact same boat (train?) you are. There is nothing they currently make that I want. NOTHING.

It used to be that I wanted everything they put out.

My, how things change.

Yep. I used to watch their wwdc and other live streams with awe, now its just a blank stare of indifference. Funnily enough I thought nvidia's recent online stream/annoucement for maxwell (game24 as they called it) was brilliant. Things look bright on the other side of the fence right now.

 

[wizard]

Im in the same boat. And ironically am using linux on a little atom motherboard while my MBP 2011 is getting reballed after 2 reflows that didnt last long. Ah apple, thanks for supporting one of your customers who spent $2500 on a laptop 2 years ago, after your own design/manufacturing flaw has stranded a bunch of us with unusable laptops.

If you are running an Atom board any of the Minis would be perfectly fine for your needs.

As to upgrades I really believe most people are delusional abut the value in upgrades. Especially right now with the industry in transition. Hardware produced today will quickly be obsolete once DDR4 comes to the desktop world. The performance deltas will be so large that you will literally be wasting money to try to upgrade.

But more to the point, I've also got a lot of friends and family on board the Apple train, but I am not recommending them anymore.

That is pretty foolish really. What are you going to do saddle them with a Linux machine. The current Minis would be more than fine for the average user. Most people buying the midrange model would not even need an upgrade. You are trying to slap your supposed power user needs upon someone that likely would never stress these machines.

I cant find a single desktop product in their line I would want to buy personally now. I cant even find a reasonable laptop replacement for the money in their line. The only thing that keeps me onboard is some entanglement in their ecosystem, and that OSX is such a darn good operating system. But if I can manage to get away from Apple without too much effort and long term inconvenience I definitely will.

Why? You aren't interested in paying for the positives that you acknowledge above.

 

[rramon]

not surprised with these news, unfortunately.

Apple is still lacking a decent desktop box. Some kind of iMac brain but with no screen.

Also buying a new Retina iMac makes little sense to most users; who would want such an awesome and pricey screen tied up forever to ANY computer, instead of the flexibility of using it in any machine for the next 10 years?????

shame on Apple.

TIME FOR A GREAT HACKINTOSH!!!!!!!

True.
I only registered here to drop some parts I used for my 2014 Mac Mini Pro, the machine Schlapple never released.

Loving the OS and really like their mobile machines (luckily I own the last *real* 15" Mid 2012 Macbook Pro with replaceable Battery, HD and RAM) but it's obvious which way this company is heading.
It always was a premium brand and therefore charged premium prices for their products. Which was okay.

Things they're forcing costumers to accept now (such as soldered RAM etc.) simply is not okay.
Period.


Anyway, part list:

Cooltek a.k.a Jonsbo U2 Case (silver)
Asrock Z87E-ITX motherboard
Intel i7-4770 processor
Thermalright HR02 Cooler
16GB 2133Mhz RAM (GSkill F3-2133C9D-16GXH)
Samsung Evo 750GB SSD (OS X)
Samsung Evo 250GB SSD (Windows)
Corsair RM 550 Power Unit
Nvidia 670 GTX with AC Mono Plus Cooler (will be replaced for a 970 GTX when I feel like)
120/140mm Prolimatech Ultra Sleek Vortex Fans
Original Apple IR Receiver connected to internal USB (homebrew)
Gmyle USB Bluetooth 4.0 Dongle (Broadcom BCM20702 chipset)
Original AC WiFi card running at full AC speeds

Running perfectly as iMac 14,2 on 10.9.5 (I usually wait with upgrading to new OS's until .3 or .4 as I actually use my machines as productive units) including CPU/GPU speedstepping, sleep/wake, AppStore, AirDrop, Imessages (which I never use) and so forth due to SSDT/DSDT files.

Geekbench score around 16000, just for comparison: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1653728/
I don't really care, my dick's long enough.

Paid around 1200$ for this unit (living in Europe, prices should be less in U.S.), fully upgradeable and silent as a dead duck.

Setup was a breeze due to the works of others – you just need to understand how things work.

Great site with all informations and a supportive community: http://www.tonymacx86.com
If you're interested in rockstable units, check 'golden builds' section.

This was my first and last post here.
Good luck