New 2014 Mac Mini Has Soldered RAM, Not User Replaceable

[Renzatic]

I've had 3 brand new Macs have bad memory that I needed to have replaced to over the last 10 years. Comparing that to the number of times I've replaced/upgraded using 3rd party RAM, I've had zero issues with RAM.

You actually have at least an equal chance of buying bad 3rd party ram as you do getting it in a brand new computer.

Every mass produced computer, and yes, this includes Apple, has an expected percentage of failures due to some mass produced component being a dud. And no one, not even Apple, checks every single thing that rolls off the production line. The ram manufacturers don't test the ram in a bulk order from the fab plant, and Apple doesn't turn on and stress tests every Mac from the assembly line. If anyone did at any point, you'd likely be paying an extra $2000 per computer for the effort.

The thought that Apple goes over the individual parts of every iPhone, iPad, iMac, or Mac Pro with a fine toothed comb, then double checks the end product before they send it out to the stores is a myth.

 

[chillywilly]

You actually have at least an equal chance of buying bad 3rd party ram as you do getting it in a brand new computer.

Every mass produced computer, and yes, this includes Apple, has an expected percentage of failures due to some mass produced component being a dud. And no one, not even Apple, checks every single thing that rolls off the production line. The ram manufacturers don't test the ram in a bulk order from the fab plant, and Apple doesn't turn on and stress tests every Mac from the assembly line. If anyone did at any point, you'd likely be paying an extra $2000 per computer for the effort.

The thought that Apple goes over the individual parts of every iPhone, iPad, iMac, or Mac Pro with a fine toothed comb, then double checks the end product before they send it out to the stores is a myth.

Valid points on the manufacturing process of components and extra efforts on each part.

And yes, the myth that some believe.

 

[Cubytus]

But a miniDisplayport/Thunderbolt to VGA adapter is still about £5 and seeing as you'd need a cable to connect anything to it, you could leave the adapter attached to the cable.

Hum no, I won't leave my useful adapter, no matter how cheap it is, attached to a conference room projector.

Standard RAM has increased from 4 to 16Gb in only a few years.

Do machines come with 16GB as standard? No. The option is available (should I say, was) at the time of purchase.

The HDD/DVD issue is a separate one. Why should everyone have to have the bulk of a seldom-used device? I see no reason why the same mechanism in an external enclosure could function any different than fitted in a laptop so your coasters claim is baseless. (And USB 3.0 blu ray burners cost less than Apple's USB 2.0 DVD and are far more useful). It's not worth reverting back to HDD-based systems for the sake of the few people who'd rather have a 5400rpm system drive with a high capacity.

Many computers still aren't equipped with Blu Ray readers, so I don't count them among the data burners. However I'd be interested to know where you can find a decent external Blu Ray burner for less than $90. My point is that one has to remember buying an external burner and keep it with him all the time if he wants to simply "be sure" his Pro machine would be able to keep up with unknown demands.

In a way, I'd be perfectly happy with MBP choices between full-featured or much longer battery life (battery taking the spot of the ODD) or Fusion drives, with a classic HDD in the ODD bay and SSD inside. The pros don't have the same needs and that's OK. But there isn't such choice. Apple now forces MBP buyers into accepting higher-res-but-glaring screens, no burner for sacrificial sharing of large files, no fast wired connection, less mass storage, unless they stock up on countless adapters, for the same amount of money as their more equipped brethren.

Same goes for the Mini. Before, we had a choice between a general model, and one more oriented for server use.

We agree that slow HDDs have nothing to do in a modern computer. However 7200rpm HDDs have a decent performance, and hybrid HDD combine HDD capacity with a performance far outstripping that of a standard HDD. AFAIK OS X post-Lion supports Fusion Drives.

 

[prowlmedia]

This says all I need to know. You know nothing about either high end post or live broadcast. Unless the systems in the UK are all low power.

I never had to install one, but the backup tower for a digital full power is upwards of 20 million just for the tower and antennae needed. Never mind inspection and aviation painting.

Again, you poor knowledge of hardware alone is enough to let me know you're just a boutique tinkerer.

p.s. Just incase you have any more basic questions about why any system like ISIS is NOT a NAS Again, this is basic, let me know when you've got that then we can move forward with the lesson.

Hilarious - Given that ISIS runs on Ethernet NOT Fibre Channel like SAN proves you know nothing.

WTF are you talking about broadcast Towers for now!?! That has nothing to to with broadcast news or anything. That's Network infrastructure.

Aviation painting! Seriously. Just go away you child.

 

[barkmonster]

Hum no, I won't leave my useful adapter, no matter how cheap it is, attached to a conference room projector.
Do machines come with 16GB as standard? No. The option is available (should I say, was) at the time of purchase.

Many computers still aren't equipped with Blu Ray readers, so I don't count them among the data burners. However I'd be interested to know where you can find a decent external Blu Ray burner for less than $90. My point is that one has to remember buying an external burner and keep it with him all the time if he wants to simply "be sure" his Pro machine would be able to keep up with unknown demands.

In a way, I'd be perfectly happy with MBP choices between full-featured or much longer battery life (battery taking the spot of the ODD) or Fusion drives, with a classic HDD in the ODD bay and SSD inside. The pros don't have the same needs and that's OK. But there isn't such choice. Apple now forces MBP buyers into accepting higher-res-but-glaring screens, no burner for sacrificial sharing of large files, no fast wired connection, less mass storage, unless they stock up on countless adapters, for the same amount of money as their more equipped brethren.

Same goes for the Mini. Before, we had a choice between a general model, and one more oriented for server use.

We agree that slow HDDs have nothing to do in a modern computer. However 7200rpm HDDs have a decent performance, and hybrid HDD combine HDD capacity with a performance far outstripping that of a standard HDD. AFAIK OS X post-Lion supports Fusion Drives.

YOU are taking YOUR Macbook somewhere to connect to projectors. YOU bring YOUR cable complete with YOUR adapter to hook up YOUR laptop to THEIR projector. What part of that simple senario is so difficult for you to grasp?

You answered your own contrarianism on the RAM issue. They DID come with less than 16Gb RAM, they DID need configuring at time of purchase, they NOW don't because they come with it as standard. (I wouldn't assume anyone in their right mind would buy a 13" dual core i5 with BTO options of 16Gb and a 256Gb PCIe SSD when they could get the 15" quad i7 with 16Gb and a 256Gb PCIe SSD for the same of even less by buying online. It's currently about £1,250 on Amazon in the UK for the 2.2Ghz 15" Retina.)

Again, shop around. The Apple USB 2.0 DVD is typically £60-70, there's plenty of USB 3.0 portable blu ray burners (NOT fullsize desktop drives in a case, PORTABLE-sized) for around £60.

 

[viewing]

Amazing news

 

[Digital Skunk]

...

Relax brother. This is getting really old and juvenile.

It does help prove however that the idea of soldered on RAM on the MacMini sucks, but it's rather moot.

Those that use it in a professional setting will buy it with the maximum amount of RAM . . . . . since we both had MILLIONS of dollars of other people's money to spend (not that we'd buy a Mac Mini for any serious work.)

Those that are looking for their first foray in the Mac ecosystem will be happy with the stock configuration.

Those stuck in the middle will be upset and I feel their pain, but this IS Apple. The company that puts 1GB of RAM in their phones and tablets.

 

[toke lahti]

In a way, I'd be perfectly happy with MBP choices between full-featured or much longer battery life (battery taking the spot of the ODD) or Fusion drives, with a classic HDD in the ODD bay and SSD inside. The pros don't have the same needs and that's OK. But there isn't such choice. Apple now forces MBP buyers into accepting higher-res-but-glaring screens, no burner for sacrificial sharing of large files, no fast wired connection, less mass storage, unless they stock up on countless adapters, for the same amount of money as their more equipped brethren.

Same goes for the Mini. Before, we had a choice between a general model, and one more oriented for server use.

I agree so much.
Right now I own 17" matte with hdd installed in ODD's place working as fusionDrive with ssd.
That mbp is getting old and I should dump 3 things, which I like in it: 17", matte & Fusion. At the same time Apple tells me, that they have a strongest line of products just now...
Same goes for mini, those 6 points I made earlier...
I just hate that I'm forced to check how W8.1 feels, since macs have gone so far from what they could be...

...but this IS Apple. The company that puts 1GB of RAM in their phones and tablets.

I hear that "this IS Apple" with a voice like "This is 300!" and not in any kind of positive way. This company can tell us that putting µSD slot next to SIM card slot would make a phone "too complicate for us to use" and they warmly maximize the usability "for the rest of us" (and at the same time their profits) and the worst thing is that we believe it!

 

[SuperPolli]

Sad.

This really ticks me off. My first Mac was a Mid 2011 Mac Mini. I killed that one myself trying to replace the hard drive (I succeeded in changing out the hard drive, but damaged the logic board in the process) Thankfully, I bought a Late 2012 Mac Mini in June, since I lost belief that Apple would ever majorly update the Mac Mini. This new update makes the Mac mini worse in Single Core performance, upgradeablility, and overall it hurts the machine. Being able to access the innards of the machine was a selling point for me. The next time I upgrade my desktop, if the Mac mini is still in this current non-user friendly design, I will most likely purchase an iMac, which sucks because the iMac is much more expensive than the Mac mini.

 

[RedBanana]

Every mass produced computer, and yes, this includes Apple, has an expected percentage of failures due to some mass produced component being a dud. And no one, not even Apple, checks every single thing that rolls off the production line. The ram manufacturers don't test the ram in a bulk order from the fab plant, and Apple doesn't turn on and stress tests every Mac from the assembly line. If anyone did at any point, you'd likely be paying an extra $2000 per computer for the effort.

The thought that Apple goes over the individual parts of every iPhone, iPad, iMac, or Mac Pro with a fine toothed comb, then double checks the end product before they send it out to the stores is a myth.

Speaking as someone who worked for an electronics manufacturer 15 years; with surface mounting, plastic moulding, full assembly, shipping, etc.

Of course everything is checked!!!

Components arrive on reals from the component manufacturer - they check theirs at their end. At our end even the final built product is plugged in and checked, even if it is a cartridge/memory card/whatever - there is a machine that it is plugged into and tests run on it (automatic tests designed to be quick). Yes the tests are usually done by hand by people on a line. Depending on the product it might be a much longer long soak in test.

Can you imagine the cost of shipping faulty units?!!!! OMG! It is massive, ship, return, unbox, throw away costly packaging, repair (if it is cost efficient), re-box, re-ship. It is hundreds of times more cost effective to find a faulty product before it is sent to packing+shipping. You also have the ability to fix it.

The fact that a small percentage are faulty when they get to the consumer is down to some failing early (they worked at the factory, but failed after x hours/days). Or being damaged in transit, or simply some part dried and failed between testing and getting to the consumer.
_______________________

Edit addition:
Here, you just have to google it to see for yourself, testing all along the assembly line including a final test when fully built: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2128888/Watch-iPad-Foxconn-factory-China.html

 

[Cubytus]

YOU are taking YOUR Macbook somewhere to connect to projectors. YOU bring YOUR cable complete with YOUR adapter to hook up YOUR laptop to THEIR projector. What part of that simple senario is so difficult for you to grasp?

Using a computer outside of home means you don't necessarily know what setup you'll encounter. As I said, while some pros may well have their habits, some others would appreciate a choice.

You answered your own contrarianism on the RAM issue. They DID come with less than 16Gb RAM, they DID need configuring at time of purchase, they NOW don't because they come with it as standard. (I wouldn't assume anyone in their right mind would buy a 13" dual core i5 with BTO options of 16Gb and a 256Gb PCIe SSD when they could get the 15" quad i7 with 16Gb and a 256Gb PCIe SSD for the same of even less by buying online. It's currently about £1,250 on Amazon in the UK for the 2.2Ghz 15" Retina.)

Are you talking about the 15" or the 13"? Sure the 15" comes with 16GB, but not the 13" I was referring to and which is supposed to be a "pro" machine. Some people may not like the added bulk of a 15", nor meet their needs with only 256GiB internal storage. For a time in 2011 I was happy to get the fastest 13" money could buy. Again, it's all about choice.

I agree so much.
Right now I own 17" matte with hdd installed in ODD's place working as fusionDrive with ssd.
That mbp is getting old and I should dump 3 things, which I like in it: 17", matte & Fusion. At the same time Apple tells me, that they have a strongest line of products just now...
Same goes for mini, those 6 points I made earlier...
I just hate that I'm forced to check how W8.1 feels, since macs have gone so far from what they could be...

I'm no going to write a lengthy joke about how tall and strong Finnish people are While I'm not that warm on the 17", I perfectly understand why image professionals would want a large screen, especially on a machine that doesn't move much but still transported regularly. Even though I think OS X has been on a downward slope since SL, Win8.1 still isn't up to par with OS X, sadly. It's not like if we had a choice. The gap is dwindling, but still significant.

Non-upgradeable consumer laptop (MB Air), non-upgradeable professional machine (MB Pro), non-upgradeable consumer desktop (Mini), non-upgradeable supposedly flagship Mac Pro.

I hear that "this IS Apple" with a voice like "This is 300!" and not in any kind of positive way. This company can tell us that putting µSD slot next to SIM card slot would make a phone "too complicate for us to use" and they warmly maximize the usability "for the rest of us" (and at the same time their profits) and the worst thing is that we believe it!

On that, I do understand Apple's take. After using some Android devices with µSD slot fitted with a card, I could see integration definitely isn't part of Android's vocabulary. One has to manually move media files there, and for unknown reasons, typically applications aren't part of the movable files. Surely Apple could have managed a much better automated seamless mount if they wanted, but even µSD cards take a great deal of room in these small (!) phones.

 

[HowieIsaacks]

So what is the limit in your estimation, when is there no need for more ram any more? It seems absurd to me to suggest that this would just continue to be a pressing need outside of special purpose applications.

Your question is useless. How do you know what my needs are, or anyone else's needs are? If I didn't need 16GB of RAM, I wouldn't have it installed. I sometimes run 3 or 4 VMs at a time in Parallels. That takes lots of RAM. Since it seems that you need to be educated on this, let me remind you that 64bit apps can use more than 4GB of RAM. I've seen Photoshop do this a lot if I'm working on something really large. Either mind your own business, or shut up.

 

[subsonix]

Your question is useless. How do you know what my needs are, or anyone else's needs are?

I'm not talking about your needs. I'm talking about an upper limit where memory size isn't an issue anymore, the idea that there are no such limit is absurd. I don't care how much memory you use. So what's your estimation? 16GB, 32, 64, 128, 1TB, 1ZB?

 

[UpperQuadrant]

Your question is useless. How do you know what my needs are, or anyone else's needs are? If I didn't need 16GB of RAM, I wouldn't have it installed. I sometimes run 3 or 4 VMs at a time in Parallels. That takes lots of RAM. Since it seems that you need to be educated on this, let me remind you that 64bit apps can use more than 4GB of RAM. I've seen Photoshop do this a lot if I'm working on something really large. Either mind your own business, or shut up.

And you are running 3 or 4 VM's on a MacMini?

What kind of job requires 3 or 4 VM's? I've never heard of that before. I've known guys to run 2 at a time. I honestly haven't run into anyone running anymore than 2 VM's. I'm just curious as to what the job function that requires it?

 

[HowieIsaacks]

And you are running 3 or 4 VM's on a MacMini?

What kind of job requires 3 or 4 VM's? I've never heard of that before. I've known guys to run 2 at a time. I honestly haven't run into anyone running anymore than 2 VM's. I'm just curious as to what the job function that requires it?

Jeez. Some people are nosey around here. I'm an IT consultant. I do a lot of testing of software, and there are several things that I do that I need Windows software for. Just because your use is different, it does not mean that I can't load up my Mac mini with as much RAM as it supports. What the hell is wrong with upgrading my own personal private property? Why must other people attempt to judge my reasons for doing it?

 

[UpperQuadrant]

Jeez. Some people are nosey around here. I'm an IT consultant. I do a lot of testing of software, and there are several things that I do that I need Windows software for. Just because your use is different, it does not mean that I can't load up my Mac mini with as much RAM as it supports. What the hell is wrong with upgrading my own personal private property? Why must other people attempt to judge my reasons for doing it?

What's your problem? It's a fair question, I don't need to know what company you work for, I've just never run into anyone that was using 3 or 4 VMs on a desktop computer. It's not that common, at least from my perspective. 2 VM's? Sure, that's fairly common.

The thing is this? There's nothing WRONG with upgrading your own computer, but you have to realize that it opens yourself up to having problems when you use 3rd party components like RAM. It's just the way it is.

But running 3 or 4 VM's on a MacMini? I think that's a little out of the norm for that type of computer since it's an entry level computer to begin with.

The problem is that this system is a low cost system to begin with and every time you have a problem with it and call the mfg, those support calls cost the company money and it costs you, the user money or lost productivity.

If you have to upgrade the RAM within 3 years, that means you didn't buy enough RAM the day you bought the computer. Either because you didn't have the foresight, or the money. That's why I recommend people buy twice what they think they are going to use or analyze their needs better.

Even running 2 VM's at the same time, I would recommend at least 16GB minimum. 3 or 4 VM's? I would recommend 32GB or even more if you are running some higher end apps. So running 3 or 4 VM"s at the same time on a MacMini? Sounds like you didn't evaluate your needs well in the first place.

And why are you getting so defensive? DO you have something to hide? People that have nothing to hide aren't afraid to explain what they use, what they do with their computers. I'm not asking for anything that's personal enough for you to worry about. I'm just trying to figure out your mentality on the situation so i can offer you the best approach to using a computer.

I've seen lots of people doing things beyond what their computer could handle and they end up having problems because they under bought. I've also seen the horror stories of people taking the Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor approach to using their computer.

People like to open up their computers and do things, I get it. I've done that years ago, but I also was doing it for a living and had some training in it first place, which most people don't have. I also know what kinds of problems people have because I've had to replace things that customer installed wrong. Done that too. I also know that when it comes to big, expensive computers like Minis, Mainframes, high end workstations, the company that uses these typically has service/support contracts and the only people allowed to crack open the computer is the mfg or reseller that did the integration. if you had a $1 Million IBM mainframe, would they use 3rd party RAM than some non-service tech installed? Yeah, right. That NEVER happens. What I find hilarious is the personal computers are more of a DIY project and that's where there are more problems.

I know both arguments for socketed and soldered on memory. I really do. But the reality is that Apple simply has to lower production costs and improve reliability of the product and this is the most logical method to do that. So, you either buy more RAM or the appropriate amount of RAM that you foresee for the life of the computer, or you buy something else. For your situation, I'd probably be going for a more powerful computer that had more like 32GB of RAM. 8GB per VN running would be ideal, otherwise, you'd have to jump up to a MacPro and up the memory to 64GB, but that would be a rare situation.

 

[Wild-Bill]

I know both arguments for socketed and soldered on memory. I really do. But the reality is that Apple simply has to lower production costs and improve reliability of the product and this is the most logical method to do that. .

No, they don't. They have $158.8 billion in cash and marketable securities on hand (three times as much as the US govt, 2x as much as the UK), their iPhone sales are four times higher than their Mac sales (24 billion versus 6 billion).

You can defend their decision to switch to soldered memory as a "cost saving" measure all you want and write long-winded 1,000 word responses in every Mac Mini thread until you're blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that it was an EXTREMELY unpopular decision to shut the end user out of an upgrade path on a machine that was purposely-engineered previously for easy upgrade access. And it has NOTHING to do with cutting production costs. Their total Mac sales are but a blip on the radar on their balance sheet.

The only thing it's going to do is ensure their stock of older model refurbs clear out.........rapidly.

 

[UpperQuadrant]

No, they don't. They have $158.8 billion in cash and marketable securities on hand (three times as much as the US govt, 2x as much as the UK), their iPhone sales are four times higher than their Mac sales (24 billion versus 6 billion).

You can defend their decision to switch to soldered memory as a "cost saving" measure all you want and write long-winded 1,000 word responses in every Mac Mini thread until you're blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that it was an EXTREMELY unpopular decision to shut the end user out of an upgrade path on a machine that was purposely-engineered previously for easy upgrade access. And it has NOTHING to do with cutting production costs. Their total Mac sales are but a blip on the radar on their balance sheet.

The only thing it's going to do is ensure their stock of older model refurbs clear out.........rapidly.

I actually never mentioned how much cash Apple has in this discussion, so why did you bring it up and say that I did?

It might have been originally designed for user upgradeability, but it isn't anymore. most of their laptops have soldered memory and even a lot of iMacs are soldered (the smaller screen models).

It's just a transition they decided. I don't see what the real problem is. You either buy enough RAM when you buy the system, or you just replace it a few years down the road if it's not enough.

Apple has metrics they can look at in terms of how often users replace their older systems (which were upgradable for the most part). They also look at the most common problems and figure out a way to reduce or eliminate those problems which lead to more support calls, warranty repairs. It's what a company that's well run does. Constant improvement.

I personally don't see what the problem is. Look at the TV market, it's gone from 10 year lifecycle down to 7 year lifecycle, that's how long the average TV is used. LIfecycles of a piece of hardware also varies depending on the user and their needs. Most home users that don't really do anything with their home computer don't really need to upgrade all that often because they don't really use it. Some people replace more often due to their financial abilities and desire to have more recent technology. I know some people that get new computers once a year, every two years, three years, etc. But the average is probably 3 years.

I think you take this soldered memory situation much too personally like they are purposely trying to screw the customer over. They really aren't. they are more reacting to the market changes and how to make something more trouble free. You have to realize that most consumers don't know jack about computers and aren't trained service technicians and the quality of memory and hard drives aren't that great unless you are getting the more expensive products that are designed and tested to ensure longer life, but you don't want to pay for that. I get it, you want what something but you can't afford it, and then you get upset.

I grew up when the average full computer system with software and printer was $5,000, so bitching over a $500 computer is RIDICULOUS to even worry about.

 

[UpperQuadrant]

No, they don't. They have $158.8 billion in cash and marketable securities on hand (three times as much as the US govt, 2x as much as the UK), their iPhone sales are four times higher than their Mac sales (24 billion versus 6 billion).

You can defend their decision to switch to soldered memory as a "cost saving" measure all you want and write long-winded 1,000 word responses in every Mac Mini thread until you're blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that it was an EXTREMELY unpopular decision to shut the end user out of an upgrade path on a machine that was purposely-engineered previously for easy upgrade access. And it has NOTHING to do with cutting production costs. Their total Mac sales are but a blip on the radar on their balance sheet.

The only thing it's going to do is ensure their stock of older model refurbs clear out.........rapidly.

First off, most of that cash is in Ireland and they also racked up a bunch of debt by getting loans and issuing bonds to pay dividends and buying back shares, so the effective amount of total cash is a lot less.

Now, if they don't get any tax breaks by bringing the money into the US, they would have to pay about 30% taxes on whatever they brought in. that's why they are trying to get a tax break on bringing in foreign money, just like Microsoft, Google and a bunch of other US companies are doing.

 

[GiancarloMazz]

As a long time Mac user dating back to OS 8, this really turns me off.. and I thought that the move to non-replaceable RAM was a bad move with the lower end iMacs... but this takes the cake.
Years ago, after Steve Jobs was brought out of Apple retirement and back into the company, I remember an interview with Charlie Rose (I think, and I wish that I had taped it back in those days before I got a DVR), where Charlie asked about market surveys.
Steve Jobs replied that Apple doesn't do market surveys.
Then Charlie asked "Then how do you know what the people want?".
Steve replied "The people will know what they want when we show them".
At that time, I almost fell off the sofa... it was such an outrageous statement, but now, I think that Apple has taken it several steps to the extreme.
I have a Mini Server that's a couple of years old, in addition to a 27" iMac Retina that I just ordered yesterday (Ouch to the pocketbook!!!), that just might be my last Mac ever... AND, I use the Parallels Windows virtual machine more and more these days on my current iMac.
And like another poster said... $300. for an $80 RAM upgrade from Apple?
WHAT!

 

[UpperQuadrant]

As a long time Mac user dating back to OS 8, this really turns me off.. and I thought that the move to non-replaceable RAM was a bad move with the lower end iMacs... but this takes the cake.
Years ago, after Steve Jobs was brought out of Apple retirement and back into the company, I remember an interview with Charlie Rose (I think, and I wish that I had taped it back in those days before I got a DVR), where Charlie asked about market surveys.
Steve Jobs replied that Apple doesn't do market surveys.
Then Charlie asked "Then how do you know what the people want?".
Steve replied "The people will know what they want when we show them".
At that time, I almost fell off the sofa... it was such an outrageous statement, but now, I think that Apple has taken it several steps to the extreme.
I have a Mini Server that's a couple of years old, in addition to a 27" iMac Retina that I just ordered yesterday (Ouch to the pocketbook!!!), that just might be my last Mac ever... AND, I use the Parallels Windows virtual machine more and more these days on my current iMac.
And like another poster said... $300. for an $80 RAM upgrade from Apple?
WHAT!

$80 RAM? you mean. The 3rd party RAM that might not be compatible or work when you get it, or that is heavily discounted because it's RAM that's being dumped? Apple doesn't change their pricing like a commodity like the 3rd party companies do.

Oh, Apple has a Feedback site they put up years ago where customers can submit suggestions, complaints, etc. I've submitted lots of suggestions for products, product features, etc. And they've implemented probably about 75% of what I submitted, so they do listen to the customers. Even Jobs would listen to product suggestions from customers whether he admitted it publicly or not.

They've also developed products/features based on some of their top corporate accounts requests.

 

[GiancarloMazz]

$80 RAM? you mean. The 3rd party RAM that might not be compatible or work when you get it, or that is heavily discounted because it's RAM that's being dumped? Apple doesn't change their pricing like a commodity like the 3rd party companies do.

Oh, Apple has a Feedback site they put up years ago where customers can submit suggestions, complaints, etc. I've submitted lots of suggestions for products, product features, etc. And they've implemented probably about 75% of what I submitted, so they do listen to the customers. Even Jobs would listen to product suggestions from customers whether he admitted it publicly or not.

They've also developed products/features based on some of their top corporate accounts requests.

Uhhhh... Nope. I'm talking about the place that I've been getting my RAM from for about 20 years which is "Crucial" who also manufactures Micron RAM that has been one of Apple's suppliers for about 20 years that I know of. Never had problem one with it.
I'm not talking about the stuff that you probably bought in the past from Fry's with all the mismatched modules on the stick. LOL!

 

[UpperQuadrant]

Uhhhh... Nope. I'm talking about the place that I've been getting my RAM from for about 20 years which is "Crucial" who also manufactures Micron RAM that has been one of Apple's suppliers for about 20 years that I know of. Never had problem one with it.
I'm not talking about the stuff that you probably bought in the past from Fry's with all the mismatched modules on the stick. LOL!

Apple has used any number of the following memory companies.

Toshiba
Samsung
Elpida
Hylinx
NEC
Crucial/Micron
possibly others I've forgotten.

The thing is that there are specific testing procedures that Apple puts on these memory mfg for the memory they get. The crap that's sold on the open market doesn't always adhere to the same testing procedures, some of it is incompatible, some DOA, and some doesn't last that long because it wouldn't pass the tests that Apple requires.

I've only bought 3rd party memory from MacMall, or another company that's a little more reputable than Fry's.

I've had problems with Crucial memory, and I won't buy their memory unless it's what Apple sells. I've talked to various people at Apple about RAM and they've all told me that Apple's memory is tested to ensure longer life.

Here's an example of what happens.

Let's say you run a RAM module in a test and it does 10 passes. the memory might test perfectly with no errors, but when you run the same memory through 100 passes, it might come up with a couple of errors. So a lot of the 3rd party stuff that comes on the market might not pass the 100 pass test, but it passes the 10 pass test. What does that mean? It means it's flakier memory and it's probably going to fail sooner than the other memory.

IF you go to Amazon and start surveying various 3rd party memory kits for Apple, look at the reviews, there are some kits where there are people that got memory that was DOA or incompatible, and in some cases the negative reviews were almost as much as the positive reviews.

The fact is that going with 3rd party memory is a much more riskier proposition and for some of us, it's not cheaper in the long run. It's more of being shortsighted. I would never recommend 3rd party memory for a computer that's under warranty or under a Mfg service contract because they won't be able to swap out the 3rd party memory and it's more of a pain in the rear swapping out memory to trouble shoot a problem since the AHT does typically work with 3rd party components, so it tells you to use Apple memory. (At least that's what it's done in earlier versions of AHT/Diag). I haven't run it with 3rd party memory lately, but that's how the older versions ran.

I understand Apple charges more for RAM upgrades and they have dropped memory prices every so often, but they don't respond to the open market as quickly because they simply aren't set up like a typical memory reseller, they buy their memory on contract and they don't always pay cheaper prices due to their testing requirements. Most top tier mfg don't drop memory prices as fast as the 3rd party crowd, they just aren't set up to do that.

It's like buying car parts from the mfg or the 3rd party parts. If you want the name brand/genuine parts, they cost more, same principal.

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Uhhhh... Nope. I'm talking about the place that I've been getting my RAM from for about 20 years which is "Crucial" who also manufactures Micron RAM that has been one of Apple's suppliers for about 20 years that I know of. Never had problem one with it.
I'm not talking about the stuff that you probably bought in the past from Fry's with all the mismatched modules on the stick. LOL!

Here's a link to a customer's comment on Crucial's User Forum. It kind of backs up what I've been saying. Trust me, 3rd party memory is a crap shoot.

http://forum.crucial.com/t5/Crucial...ade-not-working/m-p/51816/highlight/true#M926

 

[fa8362]

I've had problems with Crucial memory, and I won't buy their memory unless it's what Apple sells. I've talked to various people at Apple about RAM and they've all told me that Apple's memory is tested to ensure longer life.

Here's an example of what happens.

Let's say you run a RAM module in a test and it does 10 passes. the memory might test perfectly with no errors, but when you run the same memory through 100 passes, it might come up with a couple of errors. So a lot of the 3rd party stuff that comes on the market might not pass the 100 pass test, but it passes the 10 pass test. What does that mean? It means it's flakier memory and it's probably going to fail sooner than the other memory.

IF you go to Amazon and start surveying various 3rd party memory kits for Apple, look at the reviews, there are some kits where there are people that got memory that was DOA or incompatible, and in some cases the negative reviews were almost as much as the positive reviews.

The fact is that going with 3rd party memory is a much more riskier proposition and for some of us, it's not cheaper in the long run. It's more of being shortsighted. I would never recommend 3rd party memory for a computer that's under warranty or under a Mfg service contract because they won't be able to swap out the 3rd party memory and it's more of a pain in the rear swapping out memory to trouble shoot a problem since the AHT does typically work with 3rd party components, so it tells you to use Apple memory. (At least that's what it's done in earlier versions of AHT/Diag). I haven't run it with 3rd party memory lately, but that's how the older versions ran.

I understand Apple charges more for RAM upgrades and they have dropped memory prices every so often, but they don't respond to the open market as quickly because they simply aren't set up like a typical memory reseller, they buy their memory on contract and they don't always pay cheaper prices due to their testing requirements. Most top tier mfg don't drop memory prices as fast as the 3rd party crowd, they just aren't set up to do that.

It's like buying car parts from the mfg or the 3rd party parts. If you want the name brand/genuine parts, they cost more, same principal.

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Here's a link to a customer's comment on Crucial's User Forum. It kind of backs up what I've been saying. Trust me, 3rd party memory is a crap shoot.

http://forum.crucial.com/t5/Crucial...ade-not-working/m-p/51816/highlight/true#M926

And for every person like you, there are hundreds who've never had any trouble with Crucial or any other 3rd party RAM. There's no defending soldered RAM. It's just another Apple money grab.

 

[UpperQuadrant]

And for every person like you, there are hundreds who've never had any trouble with Crucial or any other 3rd party RAM. There's no defending soldered RAM. It's just another Apple money grab.

Then why did they drop the price of the base unit? Another money grab? Yeah, right. You just hate paying more for Certified Apple Memory that they cover under THEIR warranty and AppleCare support.

Well, the odds are catching up to you and when you have your first 3rd party memory problem, then you'll start to understand my point, and then the 2nd time you have a 3rd party memory problem, then you'll get a more deeper understanding. Apple Memory has better odds of working and being compatible than the 3rd parties. go check out the user forums and reviews on Amazon. The odds are not in your favor over the long haul.