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New Apple Cash Accounts Now Branded as Visa Cards
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Only in the US. Still, making the card a Visa makes it easier to use when they travel abroad.
Well Apple didn’t make any deal directly with the card networks. They partnered with Green Dot bank and the bank issued the debit card on Visa. I have no idea why they chose Discover, but it always baffled me because most of Green Dot’s debit/prepaid cards sold at pharmacies and supermarkets are visa or MC, not Discover.
It appears on the big card on iphone too, but only after you double click the side/home button and authenticate with face/touch id.
It does. It might interest you to know that upon changing Apple Cash to visa, the 3% foreign transaction fee is no longer charged.
Not necessarily. Mine changed all by itself without me switching off and back on.
So how come after all these years that Apple STILl has not released this outside of the US? There is no excuse as IFthey ever decide to release it outside the US then they cannot tout it as new and amazing can they?
Kind of like not releasing the original iPhone anywhere other than the US and then after 10 years they release the 1st iPhone and expect us all to be amazed and rush out to buy it.
Sorry but Tim Cook needs to go!
Kind of like not releasing the original iPhone anywhere other than the US and then after 10 years they release the 1st iPhone and expect us all to be amazed and rush out to buy it.
Sorry but Tim Cook needs to go!
Being in Canada, I'm about as annoyed as anybody else when Apple rolls out new features and services exclusively in the U.S., but Apple Cash is considerably more complicated than most things.
Apple has to partner with a bank, and it's probably tough to find a bank that's particularly eager to do this, as there's really not much in it for them beyond some transaction fees when folks actually use the Apple Cash card through Apple Pay. Person-to-person transfers don't carry any fees, nor do bank transfers.
Even in the U.S., where there are hundreds of small banks, Apple ended up partnering with Green Dot, which didn't start out as a bank — it's a fintech firm that bought a small bank so that it could have some legitimate banking coverage behind it.
By contrast, there are six big banks in Canada, who have formed their own payment network (Interac). It's going to be hard for even Apple to make inroads into a firmly entrenched system like that. In fact, one of the reasons Apple Pay took so long to come to Canada is that the banks refused to allow it in Canada for Visa and Mastercard until the Interac network could be updated to support it, as they were afraid of losing their Interac fees to the credit card companies.
I can't speak to the financial situation in other countries, but it's fair to say that Apple is likely facing similar challenges elsewhere. The U.S. banking system is one of the most open and competitive in the world. That's a double-edged sword, of course, as it's also one of the reasons that payment technology is so far behind the rest of the world (as discussed earlier in this thread), but it does make it much easier for companies like Apple to find willing partners to work with.
Ten years? I'm not sure what you're talking about there.... The original iPhone was released in the U.S. only in 2007, but even later that year it came to the UK, France, and Germany, and then even Ireland and Australia got it in early 2008. When the iPhone 3G was released a few weeks after that, it came out in 22 countries around the world. In 2009, the iPhone 3GS launched in 90 countries, and it's only been ramping up since. Granted, there may be a few outliers, but it's hardly fair to say that it was only available in the U.S. for even a whole year, much less 10 years...
Even what there may have been in it for Green Dot to participate in Apple Cash in the US there might not be in it for banks to participate in Apple Cash elsewhere: the only fee Green Dot ever charges is for sending money from the Apple Cash card back to one’s bank account instantly using the debit card added to Wallet (otherwise it’s done free via an ach transfer that takes 1-3 business days). Outside the US, however, a bank supporting Apple Cash couldn’t charge a fee for an instant transfer to a bank account, since in most other countries there already are free instant bank to bank transfers.
As for the remark on Apple releasing the original iphone 10 years later outside the US, I believe it was a hypothetical example. He does have a point in Apple losing the ability to tout its services in other countries by waiting so long to release them. Don’t forget Apple makes a living out of keeping people surprised and hyped about their products and services, and time can be an enemy of that. And the 10 year number isn’t too crazy: Apple Pay, for example, wasn’t released anywhere in Latin America (except Brazil) until nearly 7 years after the US initial launch. That’s way too long. And we’re still seeing launches in new countries even now, nearly 8 years after the US launch.
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Green Dot also pulls in the interchange fees whenever people use Apple Cash as a payment method through Apple Pay, but that's going to be dependent on how many people use Apple Cash that way. If folks are simply content to use it for sending and receiving money via Messages and rely on ACH transfers, Green Dot basically makes nothing at all.
There are also expenses involved, of course, not only to manage the entire thing, but also apparently merchant processing fees for accepting money with Apple Cash.
When Green Dot's CEO talked about the parntership back in 2017, he said at the time he didn't expect it to have "a material impact" on his company's financial performance, at least not in the short term.
So, with Green Dot not even making much out of the deal, I can imagine Apple is having a hard time trying to get banks in other countries to buy into it. Apple may have to become its own bank before Apple Cash can roll out internationally 😏
True, but Apple doesn't generally do this deliberately. In fact, Apple has traditionally been one of the better big tech companies when it comes to international availability of its products and services. Others like Amazon and Google acted like the rest of the world didn't exist for years, although of course they've gotten better recently.
With the iPhone, it was getting things aligned with carriers, for the most part. The original iPhone strategy worked against that, as most carriers had no interest in buying into Apple's business model, which is why Apple abandoned that with the iPhone 3G and went with subsidies and traditional carrier activations instead.
Nevertheless, Apple is still more demanding than most phone makers when it comes to the iPhone, and there were carriers that refused to carry it on Apple's terms until they simply had no other choice but to acquiesce to Apple's marketing demands or lose customers to their competitors.
Apple had the same problem with iTunes Movies and TV Shows back when those services were in their infancy. Copyright laws and licensing and distribution contracts with TV networks prevented many shows from being made available in Canada and other countries merely because of how they were written. U.S. networks had signed exclusive distribution deals with traditional broadcast networks in other countries like Canada, but those deals didn't allow those networks to sublicense that content. So, ABC/NBC/CBS couldn't sell iTunes TV Shows in Canada because they had already given the rights to Global/CBC/CTV/etc, and those Canadian broadcasters didn't have the rights to sell those on iTunes either because their contract didn't allow them to. As the contracts got renewed, things loosened up, but it's a good example of how complicated these things can get.
By comparison, Apple TV+ launched in over 100 countries on day one because Apple owned all the pieces and didn't have to fight with anybody to get permission to make it available (China being the obvious exception).
I don't think that's deliberate on Apple's part either — at least not directly. Apple's terms and conditions aren't palatable for many banks, so indirectly Apple may be slowing things down by being intransigent, but that doesn't mean many of the banks aren't being just as stubborn in their own way.
As I explained in an earlier post, the sole reason Apple Pay took as long as it did to even come to Canada is that the banks refused to participate until they could get it working with their own Interac system, as that's where they make most of their money from transaction fees. This had nothing to do with Apple; in fact, Apple bent over backwards to provide engineering support to assist the banks with the process, but they wouldn't authorize the use of Apple Pay with Visa and Mastercard until they had fully certified and tested Interac so it could launch at the same time. That issue is unique to Canada, of course, but banks in other countries likely have their own concerns.
The two biggest obstacles are the transaction and interchange fees for Apple Pay and the restrictions on using their own dedicated banking apps instead. Apple isn't going to give away Apple Pay for free, but some credit card companies and banks simply aren't willing to give up even a penny of their fees. Even in countries where Apple Pay launched years ago, there are still credit card companies and even individual cards that don't work with Apple Pay.
Others are simply nervous about putting their eggs in Apple's basket. The ones in this category are those who are fighting for Apple to open up the NFC hardware so third-party banking and credit card apps can handle their own payment systems — and of course collect all the fees directly without giving a cut to Apple.
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I don’t believe merchants pay any fees specifically for accepting the apple cash card. It’s just a debit card like any other, they just pay the network fee (previously Discover, now Visa).
Also, it didn’t take that long to bring Apple Pay to Canada. One year wasn’t much. In Mexico, it took 4 years just for Apple to even think of talking to the local banks. Then it took another 2-3 years for the local banks to be ready for Apple Pay. Had Apple started negotiating with Mexico’s banks back in 2014, Mexico might have gotten Apple Pay at the same time as Canada or maybe a year later instead of 5 years later. Clearly, Apple is partly at fault for longer than necessary wait times to roll out its services internationally.
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Yeah, in that sense it works like any other Visa Debit card for the merchant. That's how Green Dot makes money by supporting Apple Cash.
What I was referring to, however, was fees in the other direction. The CEO of Green Dot described it as an expense "to accept the Apple Pays, where the merchant's on the funding side of the transaction." (emphasis mine). To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what he means by that, but clearly there are some costs involved for Green Dot.
Yeah, perhaps. I obviously have no idea how long it took Apple to approach other countries, but I do know that Apple wanted to roll out Apple Pay in Canada simultaneously with its U.S. launch, but it was the banks that held things back. It was actually closer to two years before Apple Pay arrived in Canada. I heard the same sort of thing happened in several other countries as well, although I only have first-hand knowledge of some of Apple's discussions with the Canadian banks. It does seem that Apple was hoping for an international rollout when it launched in 2014 — Visa and Mastercard were both ready to go almost worldwide, but the banking industries in several countries weren't on board.
On a purely technical level, there's actually not a lot that banks need to do to support Apple Pay for Visa or Mastercard. They mostly just need to agree to Apple's terms and fees, and set up a system for verifying and authenticating cardholders. Everything else is already handled by the Visa/MC payment networks. Any other delays are usually a result of regulatory and security concerns — some banks (and some countries) require that Apple pass additional testing and validation procedures before they'll clear Apple Pay for use. Those regulatory hurdles can take time, especially in places where the government is also involved.
Actually no. Apple Pay launched in the US on October 20th, 2014 and in Canada on November 17th, 2015. That’s just one month past the first anniversary of the US launch.
Yeah, I guess technically that's correct, however that was exclusively with cards issued directly by American Express, so it was kind of an end-run around the entire Canadian banking industry. In fact, the rollout was so limited that the Amex card issued by the Bank of Nova Scotia (Scotiabank) wasn't part of it.
Apple Pay didn't roll out for Visa and Mastercard in Canada until June 2016, at which point the Scotiabank Amex was also included. The June launch saw almost all the cards from the major Canadian banks included, with only a few holdouts such as Capital One (which continues to be a holdout even to this day).
American Express is obviously a special case, since it's not beholden to the rest of the Canadian banking industry. Visa and Mastercard are, and were pressured to hold off on even allowing smaller credit card issuers to support Apple Pay until the big banks were ready.
It only took about a year for the Canadian banks to get the Interac debit card system fully tested and certified for Apple Pay. However, they spent nearly three years in talks with Apple prior to that, not only trying to negotiate better rates, but also dealing with fears of giving a third-party like Apple too much power by letting it have access to their customer relationships and data on such things as spending habits.
One of the concerns was that Apple would use that data as leverage to lock customers into Apple Pay, potentially holding the banks captive and demanding higher interchange rates down the road. One financial analyst told me at the time that some bank execs she was working with actually believed Apple's fees were too good to be true, and assumed that Apple had a hidden agenda. It seems they're a paranoid bunch.
Oh I see. I had no idea that had happened in Canada. Something similar happened in Mexico: for the initial rollout in february 2021, only American Express and Mastercard participated, with the latter allowing cards issued by only two of the major banks (and two more jumped on board a month later). Visa didn’t join the party until 6 months later in August and then several more card issuers came on board.
Just noticed that mine has now changed over this week. As of last week when I checked it was still Discover.
Ahhhh that's the trick. I did the turn off/on and could see the in the settings that it was Visa now vs Discover but no logo. I double tapped and saw it. So the Visa logo is only visible when you are actively paying with it. It went away when it went back to the card stack.
Reportedly, iOS 15.5 will allow easier requests/payments via the Apple Cash card.
I wonder if the card's VISA change also points to even more new features ahead. 🤔
I wonder if the card's VISA change also points to even more new features ahead. 🤔
My Apple Cash card automatically switched from Discover debit to Visa debit after I updated my phone to iOS 15.5. I didn’t have to turn it on and off. I see the visa logo on my Apple Watch when I go to use the cash card on Apple Pay. There’s still no visa logo on the main card image in the wallet of my iPhone but I see the visa logo on the small card image when I click card details.
It looks like with iOS 15.5 Apple updated everyone’s Apple Cash card. Mine had already automatically changed to Visa in April, but it still did change its device account number after updating to iOS 15.5.
After keeping an eye out on discussions in my particular financial sites of interest, one could make a case that one of Apple Card's driving factors is to push contactless payments adoption in the United States - considering the US apparently lags far behind the word in the contactless space - thereby providing rationale why Apple Card is only available in the US.
And we all know how Apple loves to re-invent technologies.
I'm not saying that's the only or main reason for Apple Card/Cash's existence, but there is logic there.
And we all know how Apple loves to re-invent technologies.
I'm not saying that's the only or main reason for Apple Card/Cash's existence, but there is logic there.
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That argument is certainly valid, but I think it applies more to Apple Pay in general than the Apple Card or Apple Cash (although I'm sure those also help). Really, though, unless somebody is already using Apple Pay for their other credit and debit cards, they probably won't have much interest in the Apple Card or Apple Cash.
I suppose if the Apple Card was their first credit card, or they wanted an Apple Card but had never set up Apple Pay before, that would drive the adoption of Apple Pay, but that seems like it would be a pretty small group of people. Most folks applying for the Apple Card are already Apple enthusiasts.
On the other hand, thanks to Apple Cash Family, Apple can get more young people on board who aren't eligible for credit cards yet. That's probably valuable for driving future adoption, in the same way the iPod touch has served as a gateway to get kids into iPhones.
The same argument could have been made in 2014 when Apple Pay was released solely in the U.S., but really it was about Apple making the necessary arrangements with the banks and regulators in other countries to get it launched more broadly. This has happened with many Apple services that require buy-in from third parties. Apple News proceeded along a similar curve.
I'm sure Apple would love to release Apple Cash and the Apple Card outside the U.S., but it needs to find banking partners in other countries who will buy into the idea. That's especially challenging for Apple Cash, as there's not much motivation for a bank to get on board when there are virtually no fees they can collect from it. Green Dot wasn't a traditional bank, but rather a fintech startup that got a banking license.