I’m starting to think Apple is going on some change agreed on to call regular 4K HD and calling the newer HDR 4K the full name?
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New Apple TV 4K, nothing playing in 4K?
- Thread starter hazeof3dd
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As the OP of that linked post, at this point I don't know what else you need to convince you. The HUD literally reads and displays the stream data. If it says 3840x2160 (the 2nd number may be smaller if the streaming service doesn't count the black bars for wider-screen, i.e. 2:1, 2.35:1 aspect ratios in the pixel count for the stream). It is not "human entered data", it's the raw numbers coming in from the codec that tells the playback device (in this case the Apple TV) how to play it back properly. E.g. if the natural size is 1920x1080 then the ATV knows it needs to upscale it to your TV's settings otherwise it will be window-boxed on all four sides. Furthermore, in the tests I've run, the streaming bit rates for those mislabeled 4K shows are all in the teens to low 20Mbps, which is totally in line with 4K online stream bit rates (2K is usually in the single digit bit rates, sometimes as low as 2-3Mbps!).
Also know that different Netflix apps are not programmed equally. The Netflix app on my 2017 Samsung 4K HDTV (HDR 10) is noticeably worse than the one on my 2018 Sony 4K HDTV (Dolby Vision). I found the result on the Samsung app to have too much pixel graininess compared to the Sony app, even when I adjusted brightness and contrast.
I find the Sony Netflix app to have an extremely wide dark to bright spectrum. To the point where the whitest whites would kind of get blown out a little, while the darkest darks sometimes exhibited a little black crush. The Apple TV Netflix app seems to smooth that out a bit, the brightest whites don't get as bright as the Sony version, but they are more pleasing to my eye (i.e. they don't wash out darker surrounding areas of picture) and the black crush I occasionally see on the Sony app is rarely seen on the Apple TV playback.
Now if one's eye finds the brighter whites of the Sony app more appealing, then that person would think the Sony Netflix app is superior. But that doesn't mean you're not getting 4K out of the Apple TV Netflix app, just that it's being processed and displayed differently.
I have extensively watched these apps on the native TV versions of both sets I own, and to my eyes the ATV4K is preferable. Another person may come over and think the Samsung app is better. Or the Sony. That's personal preference and everyone's entitled to it. But to second guess a data stream that is 3840x2160 at an average of 17Mbps bit rate as "not 4K" based on that preference is choosing one's personal preference over facts and hard data.
Since I posted that other thread, I have tested a few more 4K and 4K HDR (Dolby Vision) titles on the three apps I have that display the mislabeling error (Netflix, Showtime Anytime, Amazon Prime). I have found zero mention of 4K or 4K HDR in the swipe-down menu, Info section. They all simply say HD, even though the developer HUD fully confirms a natural size of 3840x2160 and a video range of Dolby Vision.
My latest theory is that the swipe-down Info menu is coded incorrectly so that it doesn't know to display 4K (or 4K HDR) content as such, and simply only as HD.
Pretty sure it is upscaling hd to 4K.
in my Netflix account, my new Apple TV is labelled as TBD (to be determined) with respect to model number.
even family members have stated quality is smoother (hence hd upscaled to 4K)
not sure what Apple is waiting for get it fixed but problem persists in Apple TV+, Netflix and Amazon prime for sure.
in my Netflix account, my new Apple TV is labelled as TBD (to be determined) with respect to model number.
even family members have stated quality is smoother (hence hd upscaled to 4K)
not sure what Apple is waiting for get it fixed but problem persists in Apple TV+, Netflix and Amazon prime for sure.
It doesn't matter what evidence is presented, they don't listen. He has created a brilliant post and detailed everything. It completely mirrors my own experience as well.
Sometimes people don't want to listen
Jason
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words...so I'll post it again in this thread (for the record, the show is called Away from Netflix).
See "natural-size"? That's the size of the stream it's receiving from Netflix. 3840x2160. See the bit rates (both average which is around 15Mbps and peak which is 24.77 Mbps)? Those rates are absolutely consistent with 4K bit rates, HD average bit rates usually stay in single digits, sometimes in the low single digits.
The Apple TV 4K Gen 2 is absolutely showing 4K Dolby Vision from Netflix. The developer HUD, which reads the streaming data directly from the CODEC. No need to rely on family members "stated quality is smoother" as "evidence".
If you want to check this for yourself and you have a Mac desktop or laptop on the same network as your Apple TV, simply google directions on "enable developer hud apple tv xcode" and follow the instructions.
Stop talking sense and posting facts. No one is interested in your accurate information and findings that are totally replicable on our own systems.
Haven't you realised that people listen to one idiot who has jumped to a conclusion rather than rational and reasoned data.
You are going to get a reputation around here for being intelligent and it might just get you banned.
Jason
I put this in my thread, but I'll also post these pictures here, just to try and head off the possibility of conspiracy theorists saying "Apple has jury-rigged the HUD to just always show natural-size as 4K". Which of course would be a ludicrous claim.
The following shots are from Lucifer (a show I do not watch, I just was looking for content to test) on Netflix. Season 1 the pilot, was not a 4K episode. I'm going to guess perhaps the whole season was HD only, unsurprising since it was it's inaugural season. Here's the HUD, note in addition to the natural size, look at the average bit rate, less than 4Mbps):
Natural-size:1920x1080 (and you'll see the Display Size, which is my 4K TV's capability is 3840x2160). This mis-match is how the Apple TV knows to upscale it to 4K on my set so that I don't get a window-boxed 2K picture (i.e. black bars all around the image to account for only getting 2K worth of pixel data for my 4K TV).
I guess Lucifer was popular/successful enough that by it's fifth season, it was a 4K show. Here's the HUD for S5E1.
Natural-size:3840x2160. Note the jump in average bit rate as well (similar to Away).
So the Developer HUD isn't rigged to only show favorable numbers (again this would be a ridiculous claim). It literally reads the information directly from the CODEC. It's a developer tool and not really meant for mass public use, which is why you have to download and install Xcode (which will take a while, it's a huge program) and jump through hoops to get it enabled.
But again, if for whatever reason you doubt the veracity of my screenshots, the ability to enable the HUD is available to anyone with a Mac.
The following shots are from Lucifer (a show I do not watch, I just was looking for content to test) on Netflix. Season 1 the pilot, was not a 4K episode. I'm going to guess perhaps the whole season was HD only, unsurprising since it was it's inaugural season. Here's the HUD, note in addition to the natural size, look at the average bit rate, less than 4Mbps):
Natural-size:1920x1080 (and you'll see the Display Size, which is my 4K TV's capability is 3840x2160). This mis-match is how the Apple TV knows to upscale it to 4K on my set so that I don't get a window-boxed 2K picture (i.e. black bars all around the image to account for only getting 2K worth of pixel data for my 4K TV).
I guess Lucifer was popular/successful enough that by it's fifth season, it was a 4K show. Here's the HUD for S5E1.
Natural-size:3840x2160. Note the jump in average bit rate as well (similar to Away).
So the Developer HUD isn't rigged to only show favorable numbers (again this would be a ridiculous claim). It literally reads the information directly from the CODEC. It's a developer tool and not really meant for mass public use, which is why you have to download and install Xcode (which will take a while, it's a huge program) and jump through hoops to get it enabled.
But again, if for whatever reason you doubt the veracity of my screenshots, the ability to enable the HUD is available to anyone with a Mac.
Just curious is this display glitch something Apple needs to correct or does each app have to fix it?
Not having access to tvOS code, I do not know.
My "best guess" is that, since I have found no evidence of the 4K label displaying properly on the apps that support the swipe-down Info section, that the error is probably on Apple's side. This is my first ATV, so I'm relying on those with the original AppleTV 4K (gen.1) to confirm that it did display the "4K" label in the swipe-down Info section for those earlier models.
If in gen.1 that 4K label was working, that means the metadata was being sent by the streaming services, and thus the error most likely is occurring in the tvOS build for ATV4K gen.2. For those who own multiple generations of iDevices (say an iPhone 11 and an iPhone 12), you'll note that iOS updates are usually different sizes for each device, because the same "version" of iOS will vary slightly due to the hardware differences between iPhones. I'm theorizing the same to be true here as well, as the ATV4K gen.2 has different hardware than gen.1.
So if programs were labeled correctly as 4K in gen.1, the fault is most likely in the tvOS code for gen.2.
Apologies if I offended anyone. I understand your studies show it’s just mislabelling.
Care to explain the following:
I tried to reach Netflix. They claim my Apple TV 4K 2021 is NOT a 4K capable device. Of course this is a ridiculous claim as we all know it truly is as reflected by YouTube and Apple TV+
Care to explain the following:
I tried to reach Netflix. They claim my Apple TV 4K 2021 is NOT a 4K capable device. Of course this is a ridiculous claim as we all know it truly is as reflected by YouTube and Apple TV+
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Sure. Human error on the part of the Netflix customer service rep.
I did confirm your experience by looking into my Netflix account on the web and it does say TBA, but again I have confirmed on multiple 4K Netflix shows via the HUD that I'm getting natural-size:3840x2160 and the appropriate Dolby Vision (when it's supposed to be provided, not all 4K Netflix shows have it).
If it's a choice between confidence in what the HUD displays and whether the Netflix CSR response is incorrect...I'll put my money on the HUD every time.
Amazing how some people actually get aggressive in this thread over this issue. Didn’t think people could sink so low to actually get angry over an issue Apple clearly needs to fix.
Regarding the HUD and its validity. It is impossible for us to truly know if the output natural size is truly the exact same thing as the resolution we’re getting from the service. How do I know this? Because there’s no documentation from Apple on how to interpret the numbers. Regardless if this is a label-issue or an actual bug I don’t see how anyone can be content with Apple not addressing the issue.
Perhaps some people put more trust into corporations than I do. Which is why I issued a return on my Apple TV 4K. I’ll happily buy it again when this is fixed. I can’t justify keeping a device that really needs to do one thing and now truly knowing if it is capable of doing so at the moment.
Regarding the HUD and its validity. It is impossible for us to truly know if the output natural size is truly the exact same thing as the resolution we’re getting from the service. How do I know this? Because there’s no documentation from Apple on how to interpret the numbers. Regardless if this is a label-issue or an actual bug I don’t see how anyone can be content with Apple not addressing the issue.
Perhaps some people put more trust into corporations than I do. Which is why I issued a return on my Apple TV 4K. I’ll happily buy it again when this is fixed. I can’t justify keeping a device that really needs to do one thing and now truly knowing if it is capable of doing so at the moment.
iOS 14.7 beta 2 released. If (I am not sure) a new tvOS beta is being released too, maybe Apple fixed the problem in this version. I have enabled only public betas so I cannot check.
So again, the developer HUD is a tool so that if you are ... developing apps for an iDevice (in this case Apple TV) you have access to all the data you need so that you can code your app correctly to work on that particular device.
It has nothing to do with "trusting a corporation". It would be like doubting tools that allow you to program apps for any operating system, Mac, Windows, Android, etc.
Companies have zero interest in providing bad tools because then all you get are bad apps which then hurt your platform.
By all means please do return your ATV4K, I won't be affected in the least. I'm not a programmer, developer, or stockholder of Apple. It won't hurt me at all. All I've tried to do is provide some pretty solid evidence in a sea of conjecture. And it has surprised me as to how some can choose to ignore facts when they don't conform to what they want to believe, but I guess that's why the term Confirmation Bias exists.
How does any of that tell you with certainty that Netflix content isn’t being upscaled? And thank you for expanding confirmation bias. Just a FYI, I have a master in psychology so no need for you to be such helpful.
I'll let you know. Apparently this is one of Apple's staged rollouts to likely ease their bandwidth pressures, as I have access to several dev betas and only one has sent me the "update available" email. I have not yet received one for tvOS and when I asked my ATV to update, it says I'm on the latest one. I may not get it until later today.
Again. Natural-size: 3840x2160 (see my example of Lucifer S5E1) vs. Natural-size: 1920x1080 (see Lucifer S1E1). Both from Netflix.
Now if you're implying that the upscaling is happening on the Netflix end...then you shouldn't return your ATV, you should cancel your Netflix.
They even fixed the Dolby Vision flag, at least on the one Netflix title I checked (Queen's Gambit) as well as the HDR flag for the one Amazon Prime title I checked (The Boys).
So Queen's Gambit says 4K and the Dolby Vision logo, and The Boys says 4K HDR. Sorry I didn't take photos of these and I'm about to get food for lunch, so you'll just have to either believe me (or not).
So Queen's Gambit says 4K and the Dolby Vision logo, and The Boys says 4K HDR. Sorry I didn't take photos of these and I'm about to get food for lunch, so you'll just have to either believe me (or not).