New Desktop Macs With M2 Ultra and M2 Max Chips Could See WWDC Debut

[EntropyQ3]

That's because Apple GPU sucks. Simple. Beside, their Metal API also sucks that a lot of software don't event use it unless they really need it such as Adobe.

Apple isn't trying to make better GPU while focus on software aspects such as Metal API which is a huge problem. The hardware itself is slow so CUDA stuff is pointless. You better check TFLOP of Apple GPU compared to Nvidia GPU. Hell, they even advertised that M1 Max = mobile 3080, M1 Ultra = 3090 and yet none of them were able to reach that.

Apple is just not good at making good GPU, that's all. Nothing new since Mac was never known of great GPU performance.

Apple GPUs don't suck, they are actually very good in several respects, and impressively performant given their targeted power envelope.
And that is the key, really - what kind of devices make sense for Apple to build? Pure compute boxes arguably don't, there is little there in terms of added value that Apple can provide. If I submit an over-night molecular dynamics run, I don't care about the box it's running on. I just want it to be finished in the morning. And even if Apple did provide a box with the desired performance, the software still runs under Linux only. The same would go for any really long computational task. It is not interactive, and can run anywhere really, preferably elsewhere actually since the systems tend to be noisy.

As far as gaming is concerned, it is predominantly a software issue. I run Baldurs Gate 3 on both my Mac Studio Max, and on my Windows gaming box (with a somewhat under volted and under clocked RX6700XT in order to cut down power draw) and the systems perform similarly, within the limitation of simply having an fps counter and no facility for benchmarking. Only, the Mac Studio draws less power than the GPU chip alone on my gaming box. Another way to look at it is that the Mac Studio is roughly on par with a PS5, but at (less than) half the power.

So - should Apple allow the GPU to draw 5-10 times more power? Personally, I don't think so. The Studio is a delightful little stationary system and given Apples inability to implement reasonable fan control, I don't want more heat generated. It would serve literally no purpose for either the photo editing or the (light) video editing I do on the system, and we have ample examples of it handling far, far more strenuous video editing than typically required. Again, what is lacking in this thread are good examples of WHY Apple should build systems with far more power draw. It's not that applications that could benefit do not exist, we all know they do, but do they exist on MacOS, and is there a reasonable estimate of just how many such Apple systems would be actually be sold for the odd app that is? How many Mac Pros sold last year? Does the realistic sales volume justify the engineering and opportunity cost?
As far as I can see, it is all forum tech-wankery.

 

[nathansz]

...oop...meant to type, "...the time is ripe for the 28.4"/32.4" XDR iMacs, one cord to rule them all!"...

And, yeah, I'd buy a 32.4" XDR model in a flash! Ha! The perfect companion for my HDR-shooting Panasonic S1's and GH6!

We all have our dreams

I’d like a consumer level hi/res 32” display

Quite a hole in the market

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

Hot boxes, 650 watts of power, etc. are just wrong on many levels. No, Apple could not take over the GPU market overnight, but it can (and IMO should) aggressively move in a new more sustainable direction.

I don't disagree in spirit, but VR/AR is a 3d raster intensive beast, and as of now, Apple has nothing (in terms of silicon) that can hope to power high end VR apps (tethered or otherwise). However, since they must know this, I figure the must either have something new up their sleeve, or they are planning for a new Mac Pro line that allows for NVDA Desktop GPUs.

 

[jasoncarle]

The M2 was only a relatively minor update over the M1, and the M1 is two and a half years old. Seems reasonable to be curious what an M3 will bring. I do think that should happen this year.

Is there another chip maker on the entire planet that is expected to come out with brand new significantly updated CPUs every year?

Do you expect the same from Intel and AMD? If not, then you can not expect the same from Apple. It sets you and them up for disappointment. Just like their 100% arbitrary update and release schedule for Mac OS has created a bug filled, unstable platform.

 

[jasoncarle]

If they cared about Mac Pro there would be one

And at the risk of starting a semantic argument that’s basically a trope here at this point about what is “pro” user, they spent time and resources porting logic and Final Cut in to garageband pro and iMovie pro…..

You may have a point here. Sadly, as I would love if my M1 Studio Ultra had 128GB of ECC memory and I was able to use ZFS on my external storage.

 

[Hrududu]

The transition is complete when they release a macos version that no longer runs on intel

I'd disagree with that. When the Mac Pro was introduced in 2006 as the last Intel system, it was declared the completion of the PPC to Intel transition. PowerPC saw one final OS after that, but Schiller made it known that in Apple's eyes, PPC was no more. I wouldn't be shocked if Ventura is the last OS to support Intel, but it would be nice to see one more major OS that did.

 

[tomtad]

M3 is just a stopgap for M4.

They’d be much better giving these chips proper names rather than just version numbers which appear immediately outdated.

Something similar to the big cats or California locations we’ve had for macOS.

 

[nathansz]

I'd disagree with that. When the Mac Pro was introduced in 2006 as the last Intel system, it was declared the completion of the PPC to Intel transition. PowerPC saw one final OS after that, but Schiller made it known that in Apple's eyes, PPC was no more. I wouldn't be shocked if Ventura is the last OS to support Intel, but it would be nice to see one more major OS that did.

That’s a fair position to take

I would be pretty surprised if Ventura ended up being the last intel OS

but obviously anything is possible

 

[smulji]

Studios will all be M3. Base M1 macs that are not updated yet will be bumped to M2. And of course, M3 Mac Pro will make its debut. Gonna be the best WWDC yet!

You really are confident that the Mac Studio / Mac Pro announcements will be based on M3 architecture. I hope for your sake it does happen.

 

[smulji]

Just like their 100% arbitrary update and release schedule for Mac OS has created a bug filled, unstable platform.

Ain't that the truth

 

[steve123]

You really are confident that the Mac Studio / Mac Pro announcements will be based on M3 architecture. I hope for your sake it does happen.

I hope so too. It seems to make sense based on their strategy and how Apple has positioned themselves with the supply chain. We also know N3E is nearing the end of qualification and will likely be HVM by end of 2023. So, that will likely be the next "incremental" node and a likely M4/A18 target process. So, if we apply the same Apple strategy, then M4 will appear next summer in Pro Max Ultra variants. By then M3 will be in full HVM volumes and well along the yield ramp and N3 will be a mature process so the high volume Macs with base M2 will get the bump to M3 at that time.

Strategically it is a brilliant, albeit risky move by Apple. Apple keeps their competitors out of the node for an entire year which provides Apple a significant competitive edge. Apple's Pro Max Ultra customers will always be ahead of the competition if Apple can sustain the cadence. One thing we know about Tim Cook is he is very good at coordinating the supply chain. If it unfolds this way, you can see Tim's hands all over this.

Some of the things that are especially interesting will be the incremental improvements to AGX, ANE and AMX. This will be the first M series release that will have some influence from user feedback of the M1 (M2 would have been already in engineering evaluation at the time the M1 was released). So, the changes we see in M3 will provide some feedback on how Apple is responding to the market. I expect we will hear from Apple about those influences at WWDC.

 

[smulji]

I hope so too. It seems to make sense based on their strategy and how Apple has positioned themselves with the supply chain. We also know N3E is nearing the end of qualification and will likely be HVM by end of 2023. So, that will likely be the next "incremental" node and a likely M4/A18 target process. So, if we apply the same Apple strategy, then M4 will appear next summer in Pro Max Ultra variants. By then M3 will be in full HVM volumes and well along the yield ramp and N3 will be a mature process so the high volume Macs with base M2 will get the bump to M3 at that time.

Strategically it is a brilliant, albeit risky move by Apple. Apple keeps their competitors out of the node for an entire year which provides Apple a significant competitive edge. Apple's Pro Max Ultra customers will always be ahead of the competition if Apple can sustain the cadence. One thing we know about Tim Cook is he is very good at coordinating the supply chain. If it unfolds this way, you can see Tim's hands all over this.

Some of the things that are especially interesting will be the incremental improvements to AGX, ANE and AMX. This will be the first M series release that will have some influence from user feedback of the M1 (M2 would have been already in engineering evaluation at the time the M1 was released). So, the changes we see in M3 will provide some feedback on how Apple is responding to the market. I expect we will hear from Apple about those influences at WWDC.

Definitely a very interesting theory. Never thought of it that way. Well, only 2.5 days to go.

 

[Motorola68000]

M2 is barely out of the gate and you guys want M3 already...

I want apple to slow down, release finished products, and stop with this stupid aritificial and pointless upgrade cycle that benefits no one.

And while I am at it... I want a new Mac Studio to have ECC memory and I want you guys and gals at Apple to get ZFS working flawlessly on Apple Silicon so I can use some of the wonderful thunderbolt storage options and retire a NAS on my network that just acts as a data depository for important data that I can't trust to a less reliable and robust file system. You'll do this if you're serious about a Mac Pro and Pro users.

M2 was always going to be a stop gap, and its specs demonstrate that even using a similar 5nm form as the M1. Sales and performance have not been startling as well as the own goals from the SSD situation. My opinion is Apple have a surfeit of M2 and want to do what they can to reduce or clear it.

 

[theluggage]

A $400 display isn't cheap, though. That's already the high end for what most people spend on a display.

It's not on the high side for a half-decent 27" 4k display (plus, I did say "or use a TV"). In other news, $600 isn't cheap for a mini-PC if you don't stipulate anything about power or quality (and the poster I replied to added in the cost of a Tragic keyboard and mouse - which are definitely the high end for a basic keyboard and mouse). Why would you pay a premium for a computer and then cheap out on a bargain-bucket $200 display?

The problem with the Studio Display being $1600 (without a good stand) isn't that it's slightly pricier, like a lot of Apple products. It's that it's about way above what people spend.

...I don't disagree that the Studio Display is overpriced, but the nearest 5k competition still costs around $1000, so even if Apple slashed the price you're certainly not going to get SD quality and 220ppi resolution if you think $400 is too much to spend on a display!

 

[chucker23n1]

It's not on the high side for a half-decent 27" 4k display (plus, I did say "or use a TV").

The ppi of TVs is so low that I couldn't take that suggestion seriously.

As for 27-inch: OK. So Apple can make a premium 24-inch display instead, then. You know, the $1299 iMac's 4.5K display, but without the computer.

But they don't. So the entry-level display you can get from Apple is $1599.

(This is leaving aside that, until recently, you could get a 27-inch iMac for $1799, with basically the same panel. So they're saying the entire computer was only worth $200? Or are they acknowledging that this display is hopelessly overpriced?)

In other news, $600 isn't cheap for a mini-PC if you don't stipulate anything about power or quality (and the poster I replied to added in the cost of a Tragic keyboard and mouse - which are definitely the high end for a basic keyboard and mouse). Why would you pay a premium for a computer and then cheap out on a bargain-bucket $200 display?

Like I said, my issue isn't that Apple's product is priced and packaged as a premium. It's how much out of whack the pricing is. I can't think of any other Apple product that's so well beyond what customers pay. AirPods are $129, and AirPods Pro are $249. That's on the high end, but it's not way outside the norm of what people spend on headphones. Even AirPods Max, whose name doesn't make any sense, are in the premium range but hardly the most you can spend on headphones.

...I don't disagree that the Studio Display is overpriced, but the nearest 5k competition still costs around $1000,

This is true, and I think it's more a function of how only Mac users have a significant reason to care about those specs, because macOS only does 2x. So, again, that's a result of a strategic decision Apple made.

Apple could've approached Microsoft to collaborate on how to drive display prices down, for instance (such as by creating a "Retina-class Display" logo program that LG, Dell, whatever can sign up for, with some cross promotion). They did so with LG, but it was half-hearted, and the result wasn't very popular.

 

[DeepIn2U]

LOL to everyone saying the Studio was a one off

Get ready for some 'Breath-taking Performance'

 

[jasoncarle]

M2 was always going to be a stop gap, and its specs demonstrate that even using a similar 5nm form as the M1. Sales and performance have not been startling as well as the own goals from the SSD situation. My opinion is Apple have a surfeit of M2 and want to do what they can to reduce or clear it.

So I'll ask you too. Do you expect Intel and AMD to release all new, significantly updated CPUs every year?

The reason M2 sales have been disappointing is no one buys a new computer every year like Apple wishes they would. Thus the frantic push to bring out new models with new chips every year is pointless.

 

[jasoncarle]

In that same vein... I don't need an M2 Mac Studio Ultra. My M1 Ultra is perfect and does everything I need it to do. The only thing that would get me to upgrade would be ECC memory. I personally think that this race to have new chips every year is pointless.

 

[chucker23n1]

The reason M2 sales have been disappointing

Disappointing to whom?

is no one buys a new computer every year like Apple wishes they would. Thus the frantic push to bring out new models with new chips every year is pointless.

It's not pointless at all. The iPhone comes out every year, but Apple is under no illusion that most people buy a new iPhone each year. On average, they buy a new one every two to three years. Which is fine: those that have a 13 may upgrade to the 15 this year. Those that have a 12 are more likely to. And some that have a 14 will already upgrade, too.

With Macs, the upgrade cycle is even slower. Apple wasn't expecting M1 Air buyers to suddenly upgrade to the M2 Air.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Mac Pro is dead and Apple are hoping everyone’s forgotten about it.

all joking aside, @Schizoid is right - Apple played this game before from the old Mac Pro chassis and waited until strong media press criticized Apple saying they're no longer ...

The Mac Pro is dead. Long live the Mac Pro.

Until 'Can't innovate anymore my ass' was delivered strong and hard! At that time it was pure genuine original fight-the-man Apple energy right there. But was rushed far too quickly and was ONLY a response - not a planned product for longevity.

Then we got what we have now - long living Mac Pro.

And we're back again.

I'd like to see desktop iPadOS devices introduced to continue the drive away from macOS. Now we have powerful tools and best-ever versions of Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro on iPadOS, it's time to go harder and faster in pursuit of the future.

What in the actual $%&%!

You either must be an old-school Apple Macintosh Duo fan OR you actually subscribed to the 'what's a computer' commercial lol.

Yes the iPad Pro is powerful and connected to a Thunderbolt dock (I did this with the 11" 2018 model a full 1.5yrs before M1 was introduced), I can tell you even with M1/M2 chips, iOS 16.x and now Logic Pro and Final Cut Pro .... there are STILL limitations.

Can you load full suite of plugins for Logic Pro for iPadOS?
Can you get full studio production hardware and editing plugins for a TB docked iPad Pro M1/M2 on Final Cut Pro for iPadOS and really fun a full editing studio with say 2-10 iPads and all the gear with Red drives etc?!?? I highly doubt that and if you could cheap out here and there the performance speed just would NOT be there.

CRITICALLY you do NOT have Terminal!
Currently I already have 2 drives (USB3.0 SS - spindle based, and USB3.2 NVME that get power, yet I cannot via even macOS will mount nor will it show (any volumes even) in Disk Utility.
You don't have disk utility in iPadOS!
You cannot run Windows OS to use CMD-line as admin and run DiskPart for troubleshooting! Connecting to a remote VM doesn't work either because you cannot connect to external OS to route back to a locally connected drive and access back again: not yet in iPadOS to run recovery tools and again drivers.
I've already installed manufacturers utilities and drivers into my macOS Ventura - again you can't install NEW drivers for things your iPad originally was designed to do and yet failed at doing.

I know there are a few terminal commands I need to run in proper sequence then fully power down MacOS and then boot into recovery mode in macOS and then run Terminal once more to finally mount my drives to which I "maybe" able to recover data from OR just to format them and get them to naturally mount after a normal boot up.

So put that in your dream pipe and smoke yourself out. Without proper root admin tools having administrator access you're limited in both sight and abilities. Nobody growing up using computers with troubleshooting skills wants to EVER give that up just for aesthetics.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Really hoping Mac Pro is not DEAD ☠️

https://twitter.com/x/status/1664059567351771138

Are we not now already approaching our 4th year of Apple Silicon when Cook mentioned completing the lineup within 'about 2 years' ?

We've just passed the June 2020 anniversary of 3yrs of Apple Silicon being announced and shipping.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Just use Shadow.

Shadow PC Cloud Gaming - Your Windows PC in the Cloud

Access a Windows gaming PC from any device: Mac, old PC, smartphone, connected TV, tablet, etc.!

shadow.tech

@sherwinzadeh just stated virtualization doesn't work - you've posted to cloud based VM (aka virtualization). Unless Shadow actually offers a reverse remote VPN service where

you on iPad or other device connects to Shadow over a VPN or other secured connection and Shadow has a persistent connection back to your PC or other device??

 

[chucker23n1]

I'd like to see desktop iPadOS devices introduced to continue the drive away from macOS. Now we have powerful tools and best-ever versions of Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro on iPadOS, it's time to go harder and faster in pursuit of the future.

Why? What's the upside?

 

[briloronmacrumo]

They need some better priced monitor choices - like they used to have.

For my needs the LG ultrafine 32 inch 4K at ~$600 is perfect ( and there are other good choices - just one I'm familar with ) It's great that Apple sells high-end monitors for those needing them but there is a large market that doesn't.

 

[jasoncarle]

Disappointing to whom?

to apple if they have a glut, or "surfeit" as was mentioned above, of M2 chips they need to unload.

The Mac Studio was released on March 18th of last year. Yet Apple is expected to put out a new one, with an M2, or even M3 chip according to some here, by a large number of posters here who have not yet explained why they hold no other company on earth to this same standard. It would be in Apple's best interest to slow down and be more purposeful regarding design of new chips and software. Time will tell if a new Mac will have the longevity of an old Mac. My 2011 Mini is still going strong and running ubuntu server on my network and hosting multiple network shares. I am streaming music from it now. Will an M1 Mini have 12 years of life in it? Will I switch to a Linux desktop, with ECC memory instead? I dont know what you do with your Macs, but I value stability and productivity in my computer. I had to restart the entire thing the other day, interrupt my entire workflow, because Mail was hanging and locking up while trying to download my email from Googles server. Eventually, a pretty UI won't be enough to keep me buying Macs.