New G4! Help?!

[beanboy89]

Went to my local computer shop today to drop off some recycling (an old socket Intel 478 Celeron machine and a bunch of IDE CD-ROM drives) and sitting right inside the garage bay, I spotted a Graphite Power Mac G4 there surrounded by a sea of beige box PCs. I immediately talked to the shop owner about and he let me take a look. It was dirty as heck. Sticker residue all over the front handle, dirt all over the top of the case, grime on the inside floor of the case. I immediately noticed there was no hard drive installed, but everything else inside the case was intact. I powered it up and it went almost immediately to the question mark folder, but at least I knew it powered on. The sticker on the back said it was a 400 MHz G4 with 64 MB RAM and a DVD drive.

Specs: 400 MHz G4. DVD Drive. Zip Drive. 256 MB SDRAM (came installed with one 64 MB stick, I added three more 64 MB sticks), ATI Rage 128.

Problem is, I can't get a working installation of OS X on it.

I know that it is way too slow to try to run anything like 10.4 or 10.5, so I've only tried 10.1 and 10.2 so far on two different drives: a 20 GB Seagate, and a 30 GB Quantum.

Here's where I'm at with each drive, fresh formatting in Mac OS Extended each time via disk utility.

Seagate 20 GB:

1) Installed OS X 10.2 just fine. On first boot, I get the prohibited symbol.
2) Installed OS X 10.2 Server without issue. On first boot, I get the gray Apple boot screen with distorted noise on the screen.
3) Attempted to install OS X 10.1. The drive isn't recognized.

Quantum 30 GB:

4) Installed OS X 10.2. On first boot, prohibited symbol.
5) Installed OS X 10.2 Server. First boot up prohibited symbol again.
6) Attempted to install OS X 10.1. Install failed. "Could not set file attributes error."

7) The most interesting. I inserted the Quantum drive into my Dual 1 GHz MDD and installed OS X 10.2. It installed perfectly and booted in the MDD. I then put the drive into the Graphite G4, and on boot, it looks fine for the first 15-20 seconds, and then I get garbled noise all over the boot screen and the loading wheel keeps spinning, but I never get a boot.

I've tried re-seating the RAM, tried a bunch of different sticks in different slots, combinations of different tricks, obviously different hard drives. Anyone know what is going on? Graphics card problems? I really don't know where else to go?

 

[havokalien]

Well installing os on a mdd wont install all the software needed for the powermac. target mode and install from the graphite and that should work.

 

[comda]

Im honestly not sure how to help. I would try new ram and perhaps a different ODD to make sure its copying all the files properly. Go from there.

As for your comment and i quote,

I know that it is way too slow to try to run anything like 10.4 or 10.5,

I rather disagree. The Photo shopped image you see as my MacRumors profile is my Tangerine iMac G3. Its specs are a G3 400Mhz, 1Gb ram, 80Gb hard drive from seagate and a DVD ROM. It boots Tiger 10.4.11 and it flies! I find Tiger Very snappy and a perfect fit perhaps even for you. My 700Mhz G4 runs Leopard and its usable but the G3 beats it on Tiger in everything.

Give tiger a go, if you dont believe me

 

[abundantmussel]

I have a 450mhz running tiger and it flies, I do have 2GB ram in it tough I think. I would try a tiger install and see if it runs also try a different gpu. I had a similar issue in an MDD and it was a bad ram stick.

 

[ziggy29]

I think it would run Tiger fine with at least 1 GB of RAM. I have an ancient PM 7600 with a G3/300 CPU which runs Tiger decently when I max it out with 1GB RAM. (No speed records, of course, but it is usable with that much RAM. With 512MB it crawled. With 1 GB it at least "walks", if not runs or flies.) In my experience, with less than 1 GB of RAM I'd probably stick with Panther.

What I'm seeing above looks like a questionable GPU, that would be the first place I would test.

 

[eyoungren]

I have a 350Mhz PCI at work running Tiger with less than 200mb of ram. Right next to it is a 450mhz AGP with 192mb of ram running Leopard.

So, the statement of not being able to run Tiger or Leopard is false.

Granted, both machines at one point had higher amounts of ram when these installs were made (and the Leopard machine had this done via TDM) but they both run and run well.

The Tiger Mac runs headless and is our Applescript server while the Leopard Mac controls the Tiger Mac via VNC, while also serving as a print server for my Mac Pro.

Throw some ram in yours and try Tiger at least. These old early OS X installs are buggy and picky as hell.

 

[beanboy89]

Well installing os on a mdd wont install all the software needed for the powermac. target mode and install from the graphite and that should work.

Once I find a FireWire cable, I'll try that.

Im honestly not sure how to help. I would try new ram and perhaps a different ODD to make sure its copying all the files properly. Go from there.

As for your comment and i quote,

I rather disagree. The Photo shopped image you see as my MacRumors profile is my Tangerine iMac G3. Its specs are a G3 400Mhz, 1Gb ram, 80Gb hard drive from seagate and a DVD ROM. It boots Tiger 10.4.11 and it flies! I find Tiger Very snappy and a perfect fit perhaps even for you. My 700Mhz G4 runs Leopard and its usable but the G3 beats it on Tiger in everything.

Give tiger a go, if you dont believe me

Replacing the optical drive might be something I could look at. This G4 won't even boot from my Tiger DVD, which I know is working, as I've used the same disc on other Macs. I know I have a few other newer and faster DVD drives that I could try out. Also, I see I can get 512 MB sticks of SDRAM fairly cheaply, I might pick up a few.

I have a 450mhz running tiger and it flies, I do have 2GB ram in it tough I think. I would try a tiger install and see if it runs also try a different gpu. I had a similar issue in an MDD and it was a bad ram stick.

I don't think it is the RAM, as I know the three sticks that I had put into it were working on other computers, and I have tested each stick individually, and got the same results each time. As I mentioned above, I will look at upgrading the RAM.

I think it would run Tiger fine with at least 1 GB of RAM. I have an ancient PM 7600 with a G3/300 CPU which runs Tiger decently when I max it out with 1GB RAM. (No speed records, of course, but it is usable with that much RAM. With 512MB it crawled. With 1 GB it at least "walks", if not runs or flies.) In my experience, with less than 1 GB of RAM I'd probably stick with Panther.

What I'm seeing above looks like a questionable GPU, that would be the first place I would test.

My money is on the GPU. The card looks quite dirty, as was the rest of the interior of the machine. I will likely try cleaning the card and contacts to see if that does the trick. Otherwise, I might temporarily test the card that currently resides in my MDD and see if that works.

I have a 350Mhz PCI at work running Tiger with less than 200mb of ram. Right next to it is a 450mhz AGP with 192mb of ram running Leopard.

So, the statement of not being able to run Tiger or Leopard is false.

Granted, both machines at one point had higher amounts of ram when these installs were made (and the Leopard machine had this done via TDM) but they both run and run well.

The Tiger Mac runs headless and is our Applescript server while the Leopard Mac controls the Tiger Mac via VNC, while also serving as a print server for my Mac Pro.

Throw some ram in yours and try Tiger at least. These old early OS X installs are buggy and picky as hell.

So more RAM is the key, I'm gathering here from the comments.

Thanks everyone for the comments thus far!

 

[eyoungren]

So more RAM is the key, I'm gathering here from the comments.

Yes, it is the key.

I have an old slot loader iMac G3 running Tiger. It has less than 80mb of ram, but it runs Tiger. Slowly, but it runs.

So more ram is always the key.

Now, once you have everything installed and set up you can function with less ram. I needed the ram in both those G4s at work somewhere else so I pulled the sticks I needed. But they are still running just fine.

Given their current purposes it serves. If I put the Leopard G4 back into everyday design use for production/composing work I'd max out the ram again. But for what it's doing right now it doesn't need it.

 

[Dronecatcher]

You've double the amount of RAM that is quoted officially as the minimum for 10.1 to 10.3 and for Tiger it is 256MB, plus you've tested the sticks. The HDD spins up and boots in another machine so it should be safe to rule that out.

You could try an Apple Service Disk to look for issues:

http://www.dreamsupport.us/downloads/apple-mac/Apple_Service_Diagnostic_Disks_25_GB/

I'd also recommend removing the graphics card and logging into the G4 from your MDD via ethernet - if all appears well it would point to your graphics card being the issue.

 

[Intell]

Well installing os on a mdd wont install all the software needed for the powermac. target mode and install from the graphite and that should work.

This is incorrect. Mac OS X is an operating system that contains all needed drivers for all systems that the version of it supports. The only exceptions are special builds that go with new hardware. If you install 10.5.8 onto a late-2007 Macbook, it can be cloned onto a 1999 Sawtooth without a problem and everything will work properly.

 

[Dronecatcher]

This is incorrect. Mac OS X is an operating system that contains all needed drivers for all systems that the version of it supports. The only exceptions are special builds that go with new hardware. If you install 10.5.8 onto a late-2007 Macbook, it can be cloned onto a 1999 Sawtooth without a problem and everything will work properly.

Does this mean, for example, a retail Leopard disk has legacy kexts for sub Leopard systems (867Mhz and below) included?
I've wondered this when people install Leopard on machines that fall short of the requirements and/or have GPUs wholly inadequate.

 

[weckart]

Does this mean, for example, a retail Leopard disk has legacy kexts for sub Leopard systems (867Mhz and below) included?
I've wondered this when people install Leopard on machines that fall short of the requirements and/or have GPUs wholly inadequate.

Why not? Processor upgrades were available since way back when so that inadequate systems could be brought up to snuff with additional RAM and suitable upgrades to the CPU and GPU. Those were the days...

 

[beanboy89]

I've had a successful install of Tiger on the Graphite G4! I'm still testing the reliability of the installation, but I got through the installation and first boot perfectly, and it's not that horribly slow with 256 MB RAM, either. It was a long road getting there, though.

I first tried swapping the DVD drive out for another DVD drive from an old Compaq, and while it read my Tiger DVD, it was really slow and very loud. I ditched that drive for a newer DVD/CD-RW from a Dell, which was not only significantly newer, also faster.

I then took the ATI Rage out of the Graphite and placed the MDD's Radeon 9000 Pro graphics card into the Graphite. I had varied success with 10.2 client, 10.2 Server, 10.3, and 10.4. Everything from Kernel panics to frozen apple logos on boot, to failed installations.

Feeling defeated, I put the graphics card and hard back into the MDD and installed Tiger to the Quantum drive. I put the drive and GPU back into the graphite, and it booted, sorta, but into Darwin. I tried rebooting a few times and playing around in the command line, but couldn't actually boot into OS X.

My final course of action was to thoroughly clean the Graphite's original ATI Rage with damp cotton swabs. There were significant amounts of grime all over the back of the card. After letting the card dry out for a few hours, I tried it in the machine. I also put my 20 GB Seagate drive back into the machine, and I was able to successfully install Tiger. I was very shocked to see the machine then successfully boot after that and play the Tiger intro video. I have tried several reboots since installing Tiger, and all seems well. I guess it was the graphics card after all, but what would've caused the Radeon 9000 Pro from the MDD to also fail in the Graphite? Is it too new of a card for the Graphite G4?

At this rate, I'm still going to tread very carefully with the Graphite G4 (which identifies as 500 MHz, not 400 MHz, according to Tiger).

 

[Intell]

Does this mean, for example, a retail Leopard disk has legacy kexts for sub Leopard systems (867Mhz and below) included?
I've wondered this when people install Leopard on machines that fall short of the requirements and/or have GPUs wholly inadequate.

Yes, the only kext that I know of that is missing is the ATI 128 kext. Even the restore discs that came with Intell Macs have all the needed kexts for older PowerPC Macs and are fully universal.

 

[beanboy89]

Well, I think I spoke too soon. I rebooted the G4, and upon reboot, this installation booted me into Darwin. What? I didn't change anything! Is there anyway to make it boot back into graphical OS X?

 

[Intell]

Sounds like it may have dumped you into single user mode. Typing "exit" should start the system up normally.

 

[beanboy89]

Sounds like it may have dumped you into single user mode. Typing "exit" should start the system up normally.

I've already tried that. It goes back to the blue background with mouse cursor and then reloads the Darwin terminal. I have also tried booting back into the Tiger DVD and have repaired/verified disk permissions. It didn't help. I have a feeling something else besides the graphics card is toast.

 

[Intell]

You've tried wiping the drive and installing a fresh OS X installation? What does Safe Boot (hold shift at start) do?

 

[beanboy89]

You've tried wiping the drive and installing a fresh OS X installation? What does Safe Boot (hold shift at start) do?

Holding shift to get into safe mode doesn't do anything differently. I guess I'm going to have to try the wipe the drive once again and reinstall.

 

[beanboy89]

I've got a bit of a update. I've tried reinstalling Tiger now three times, and each time the same thing happens. The install looks like it completes successfully, and then on the first boot up, it gets stuck at a blue screen with mouse cursor in the top right corner.

 

[havokalien]

So no one believes me but oh well, install OS 9 on it with OS 9 hard disk drivers before you instal OS X. Ive found this cures most ills.

 

[Intell]

So no one believes me but oh well, install OS 9 on it with OS 9 hard disk drivers before you instal OS X. Ive found this cures most ills.

No one believes you because we know otherwise. Just like we know that the OS 9 drivers are irrelevant to OS X and won't do anything to solve beanboy89's problem.

Beanboy89, what happens when you press and hold command-V for verbose boot? Do you have an other video card to test with?

 

[eyoungren]

I ALWAYS get the numbers wrong!

But here they are anyway!

 

[beanboy89]

No one believes you because we know otherwise. Just like we know that the OS 9 drivers are irrelevant to OS X and won't do anything to solve beanboy89's problem.

Beanboy89, what happens when you press and hold command-V for verbose boot? Do you have an other video card to test with?

I'm getting a bunch of disk I/O errors in verbose mode with both the ATI Rage and Radeon 9000 Pro graphics cards.

I've tried swapping out the hard drive IDE cable with a different cable, but now the computer refuses to even attempt to boot from the hard drive. It doesn't show up in the moot menu. Back to the Tiger DVD for another reinstall, I guess.

 

[eyoungren]

I'm getting a bunch of disk I/O errors in verbose mode with both the ATI Rage and Radeon 9000 Pro graphics cards.

I've tried swapping out the hard drive IDE cable with a different cable, but now the computer refuses to even attempt to boot from the hard drive. It doesn't show up in the moot menu. Back to the Tiger DVD for another reinstall, I guess.

You may have an IDE drive controller failure.

That would be the logicboard…