New iMac G5 Announced

[macmax77]

i am getting one

Beautiful. I'm glad it's finally here, and the design makes sense. I'm going to miss the whole rotation thing though.
–Chase

hi there, i am getting one next month

 

[macidiot]

So what is the optimum frame rate for video games. I know the faster the better argument. But what about real world?

Its hard to put down an exact number. Even the demo's used to benchmark have issues, they are mostly a guideline. Sort of like EPA estimates for a car.

The thing is framerates vary within the game. If there are 50-100 or 200 individual objects on the screen at once, performance slips badly. Actually, it has to do with the number of polygons being drawn and the textures being used, I think.

Anyway, what your looking for is a framerate over 30 under the heaviest load. That will pretty much guarantee smooth performance. In my experience, that translates to about 80-100fps in a benchmark.

As for the comments by others...anything below 40-50fps in a benchmarking is fairly poor. Sort of scraping the bare minimum of playability. You can use it, but there are going to be big slowdowns(extremely sluggish, skipping of frames, etc.). Whoever was talking about framerates of 20-40 for older macs hopefully wasn't using them to show acceptable fps. If I was playing a game with that sort of performance, it would drive me crazy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think the problem is that there is NO OPTION to improve the gpu. It was a problem with the old imac, its a problem with this one. All of this back and forth is absurd. If you think the 5200 is a lightning fast performer that will be great 20 years from now, god bless you and enjoy your iMac. Steve thanks you for your support. But why belittle those that would like to have improved gpu performance. Or just want the option for improved GPU performance? I don't get it.

 

[andiwm2003]

Well, as someone who doesn't care about the graphics card, but who wants a nice and compact all-in-one which won't take up too much space on the desk, this is perfect for me. My 800mHz iBook is fine for my basic needs, so the new iMac is more than adequate, for what I consider a great price. Heck, my 'main computer' at the moment is an ancient Win98 Dell with 128mb of RAM which crashes multiple times per day, and I don't really need much more power than that.

In all seriousness, I am part of the target audience for the new iMac. I know that people are saying 'well, why bother with the iMac, when your needs are fulfilled by the eMac?'; but I prefer the size and design of the iMac, and know that there'll be a time in the future when I'll be glad for the extra processing speed. It's not that the eMac isn't currently adequate for me and users like me, but that it might not be in the future. I can't justify the purchase of a PowerMac, but I can justify the purchase of an iMac.

And yes, I have a 20" on order

i see it the same. i don't do heavy duty gaming and for the rest the imac is fast enough. my only worry is that the core technology of tiger is slow when most of the calculations are done in the gpu. i just recently bought a 15" PB so i'm not in the market for a 20" this year. but next year i'm up for a revision b 23" imac.

i also hope that apple will bring a imac with video card and remote control, so that i can use it as my home computer, itunes, tv, digital videorecorder, videophone all in one system.

i'm not so much interested in the high speed graphic thing, i don't need a 8xDVDR, i want a digital hub.

i also want something that gives me larger pixelsize. that 100dpi stuff is to small for me when my eyes are tired in the evenings.

so for me the speed of the computers is fast enough, now i need improved usability. if apple targets that market than i believe there are a lot of people willing to pay hard earned money for it. and as long as people like me buy these imacs there apple has no need to put in high speed equipment in their imac line. sorry for that.

of course i want then a more shiny brushed aluminum design. its not a computer anymore, its a digital hub.

my 2 cents, andi

 

[alexf]

If Apple can put a G5 into a two inch enclosure, then surely their engineers could shoehorn an 8XAGP Radeon in there also, dont you think?
I think it came down to $$$, and Marketing, keeping the imac closed there makes apple think instead of upgrading the video card in 2-4 years, you will buy a new iMac instead, and they are probably right, thats if you buy it with the underpowered card in the first place.

I can't believe we're still talking about the graphics card on page 58!

Listen, we've been through this before: the 5200 graphics card is smoldered to the motherboard (meaning customized specifically for the iMac).

Apple had to choose one graphics card to customize and engineer the the compact machine around, and they chose the 5200, which is what is in 2 of the 3 high end PowerMacs for sale. Did anyone REALLY think they would put a better graphics card in there than is in the pro-level PowerMacs?

In any case, the 5200 is NOT a bad card for everything that the iMac was designed for! Enough, I say!

 

[daveg5]

Finally something we can all agree on.

However, I think it's at least 640x480, but you're right: the only reason Xbox gets good framerates is the low resolution.

The thing is running a GeForce2 MX for God's sake.

Having played gams on the xbox I can assure you the minimum is 640X480, even the dreamcast and saturn had that as a minimum, that said you need HDTV or a VGA or dvi adapter and monitor to take advantage of those res, the Standard tv dosent do the XBox justice, my brother has his hooked to an LCD display and sometimes a crt and it looks great, however, I am not sure if it is in millions or thousands of colors at that higher res?

 

[aswitcher]

Does anyone think that the new iMac tells us anything about what the next rev/form of the emac will be. Does the design and look mean the eMac will stay as is bar hardware upgrades for the next few years or does changes in the Imac point to changes in the emac?

 

[daveg5]

My guess is the emac has a full size opical drive in it and the iMac as an moble opitical drive in it. Moble drives are still at the 4x mark for DVD burners

As for apple also happiering the iMac and keep the gap so big is apple is kind of greedy and they want to make people who dont want and dont need the power of a pro computer to make them waste the extra money because they need/want the power that falls in bettween. *better graphic card ect

The problem with computer is they are only as strong and as fast as there weakest link. Processor(all the stuff that goes with it), Ram, and Graphic card. The problem is the Graphic card is the by far the weakest link in this system. Put 512 meg-1 gig of ram and the ram not a problem (and that is very do able). A lot of the processor power is going to go to waste on the weak card. For the people who dont need a card any stronger they also dont need a G5 chip. There always needs to be a balnces bettween the parts of the computer in the terms of power.

You dont want graphic card that is held back by the CPU and you dont want a CPU held back by the Graphic card. Having more ram that you computer can use is a waste but by the same token not having enough is a problem. 256 is not enough ram but then again it is upgradble and most people will upgrade it.

I believe there are 8X mobile slot load drives and 12-16X tray drives, however the 4X slot load cost Apple more than the 8X pioneer, which can be had for like $80 compared to $150-200.

 

[daveg5]

I didn't know that the card is welded to the board, that really sucks. I guess this is waht I get for not watching all of the stream lol But thanks that helps clear things up for me a little bit. [/
oh no is this true, so if the videocard goes you need a whole new motherboard, Dang that sucks, hopefully someone can desoder it off and put a faster one on.
QUOTE]

 

[Anarchy99]

I can't believe we're still talking about the graphics card on page 58!

Listen, we've been through this before: the 5200 graphics card is smoldered to the motherboard (meaning customized specifically for the iMac).

Apple had to choose one graphics card to customize and engineer the the compact machine around, and they chose the 5200, which is what is in 2 of the 3 high end PowerMacs for sale. Did anyone REALLY think they would put a better graphics card in there than is in the pro-level PowerMacs?

In any case, the 5200 is NOT a bad card for everything that the iMac was designed for! Enough, I say!

i did expect that card in there but the top of the line would have better or at minimum a better one BTO and the imac for home users some who like to play games the powermac is a pro desktop for professionals more home users play games than pro"s apple bombed royally putting that card in there especially with no BTO or GFX customizability

 

[Detlev]

But why belittle those that would like to have improved gpu performance. Or just want the option for improved GPU performance? I don't get it.

I don't see it as belittle–ing those who want improved GPU performance. I rather see it as putting those who do want to upgrade in a class of their own. Listen to the keynote again. The target audiences are not running high–end games or imaging software morning, noon, and night. They can, but they don't. These machines are put on the front counter or in the office at a small business, used many as a way to keep in touch with family, used as a stepping stone to bigger and better things (from the iPod to the Power PC with 30" monitor :drool: ).

Sure, being able to play with the insides as much as a big Mac would be fun but but not as consumer friendly. Don't forget the millions out there who want to open the box, plug it in, and go but not have to worry about if they got the right card, worry about how to put it in, pay someone to do it, have to get an updated version in six months, etc. Look there are plenty of folks still using first generation iMacs out here. Sure would be nice to upgrade for many but it just keep chugging along. So why? It really is, "the little computer that could."

 

[daveg5]

well i'm sure it does matter for the US but over here emacs are non-existant in class rooms and schools...so the 'e' of emac is pointless because they never got into the classroom here ... (another reason for lousy emac sales over here...)

but i think that CRTs are already so cheap that customers going for a new pc (because they already own a old CRT one) will go LCD... i doubt that the emac will get a 'revival and increasing sales... the idea that this imac of today will perhaps take over the emacs place (with the same name ) sounds very reasonable
i don't think it would be hard to simply put on a thin protection layer over the LCD for concerned schools

wow over here the emac has been a consistent sales leader with the $799 price and durability for kids. I guess American kids are a little ruffer, lol
an lcd 17" would probably add $100-$150 to the price and would have bad specs, a good one would add $200-$250 to the cost.
there is a lot of people who would like to get the imac, but want to use their screen, which they can do but that puts two screens on the desk showing the same thing. they want a headless model for $999.
there is a hack that allows independent displays with the powerbook and emac, hopefully it will work with the imac, 17, then I could use my 21" Sony trinitron for Games as the 17 LCD specs are not that great? Hmmm

 

[daveg5]

I mentioned that exact cause as one of the reasons why iMac G5 is the way it is a few pages back, i think.

oops sorry to repeat, I might have missed your post , there are so many, you know, but we both agree, planned obselense.

 

[alexf]

i did expect that card in there but the top of the line would have better or at minimum a better one BTO and the imac for home users some who like to play games the powermac is a pro desktop for professionals more home users play games than pro"s apple bombed royally putting that card in there especially with no BTO or GFX customizability

Wow, nice sentence (I think they call that "steam of consciouness" writing)

The PowerMacs do have a BTO option for a better card.

Also, I do think that a better card should come standard with the PowerMacs, but for the iMacs the 5200 is appropriate.

OK, that was my last post re graphics cards. Finito! Fin! Ende!

 

[daveg5]

I can't believe we're still talking about the graphics card on page 58!

Listen, we've been through this before: the 5200 graphics card is smoldered to the motherboard (meaning customized specifically for the iMac).

Apple had to choose one graphics card to customize and engineer the the compact machine around, and they chose the 5200, which is what is in 2 of the 3 high end PowerMacs for sale. Did anyone REALLY think they would put a better graphics card in there than is in the pro-level PowerMacs?

In any case, the 5200 is NOT a bad card for everything that the iMac was designed for! Enough, I say!

no one here is really complaining so much of the card or whether the imac G5 started life as a 5200 and everything was engineered around it (I doubt that very much) we are complaining no BTO for those of us that want better, and soldering makes upgrades almost impossible.
To be fair the 5200 is a decent entry level card, I think the high end Imac at least should have allowed an option like the powerbooks do, at least with the amount of memory if nothing else, you know.
The Unupgradeable, soldered on Video card and lack of a pc card slot dvi in, dual independent displays, low quality 17" LCD are about the only design flaws, I see, It is still a good value for many, especially those that dont own great displays already, and are not into gaming much.

 

[daveg5]

Does anyone think that the new iMac tells us anything about what the next rev/form of the emac will be. Does the design and look mean the eMac will stay as is bar hardware upgrades for the next few years or does changes in the Imac point to changes in the emac?

I think the emac will get a 1.5 G4 and a 64MB version of the ati9200, the 32MB days are numbered, and a higher refresh rate at the higher resolution. 1280X1024 at 85hz

 

[rdowns]

First shipping news?

Apple called me twice today; needed verbal verification of a ship to address different from billing address. Asked for ship date and was told 9/23. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[aswitcher]

I think the emac will get a 1.5 G4 and a 64MB version of the ati9200, the 32MB days are numbered, and a higher refresh rate at the higher resolution. 1280X1024 at 85hz

Yeah, I can see a graphics card upgrade and main processor speed bump.

I wonder if they would contemplate a bigger CRT? 18" 19"?

Or possible a smaller LCD in place of the 17" CRT...Would a 15" LCD with much the same other hardware be an option now that they have the new form factor iMac. Say rather than 2" something like 4" thick to allow plenty of room for non-latop graphics card, harddisk and dvd?

 

[alexf]

The Unupgradeable, soldered on Video card and lack of a pc card slot dvi in, dual independent displays, low quality 17" LCD are about the only design flaws, I see, It is still a good value for many, especially those that dont own great displays already, and are not into gaming much.

Come on, this is not a PowerMac, no matter how much we would like it to be! This iMac is much more upgradeable than any previous incarnation and we are still complaining about "design flaws"!

I am personally still in awe as to how Apple could pull off such a beautiful feat of engineering (albeit aesthetically not very nice to look), getting so much and a G5 processor into a "pizza box."

 

[takao]

Yeah, I can see a graphics card upgrade and main processor speed bump.

I wonder if they would contemplate a bigger CRT? 18" 19"?

i doubt a bigger CRT..the emac is already a heavy computer with an 17"
would they give it a bigger resolution like they have now ? doubt it
processor speed graphics card etc. very likly..getting bigger in size of crt..sceptical of that...

Or possible a smaller LCD in place of the 17" CRT...Would a 15" LCD with much the same other hardware be an option now that they have the new form factor iMac. Say rather than 2" something like 4" thick to allow plenty of room for non-latop graphics card, harddisk and dvd?

getting thicker than imacg5: yes ..very likely
15": those aren't really made anymore for desktops... at least it's hard to find them in stores..perhaps something completly different...and of course imac = widescreen, emac = 4:3 makes sense

 

[daveg5]

Yeah, I can see a graphics card upgrade and main processor speed bump.

I wonder if they would contemplate a bigger CRT? 18" 19"?

Or possible a smaller LCD in place of the 17" CRT...Would a 15" LCD with much the same other hardware be an option now that they have the new form factor iMac. Say rather than 2" something like 4" thick to allow plenty of room for non-latop graphics card, harddisk and dvd?

well the powerbooks excellent 15.2" screen is more than sufficient for most and cheaper than a 17". the emac could get an LCD top model.
base 1.5 combo $599, super drive $799, superdrive plus 15.2 wide screen similar to imac at 1.6 $999.
By that time the powerbooks should have 1.5G4 in the 12" dual 1.6 in the 15.2 inch and dual 1.8 in the 17", not bad. I am dreaming of course.

 

[daveg5]

Come on, this is not a PowerMac, no matter how much we would like it to be! This iMac is much more upgradeable than any previous incarnation and we are still complaining about "design flaws"!

I am personally still in awe as to how Apple could pull off such a beautiful feat of engineering (albeit aesthetically not very nice to look), getting so much and a G5 processor into a "pizza box."

Well I know its not a powermac, and the non upgradeable video has been beaten to death, the original imac did have video upgrades by way of a mesazine slot I believe. and the powerbooks have BTO upgrades, so upgradeable graphics is not a powermac exclusive, older powerbooks can use the PCcard slot for firewire 800 and usb 2 and old and new powerbook owners can use it to add another dvi Lcd monitor, www.villagetronic.com. all without a ton of wires, pro audio cards, card readers etc. I didnt expect apple to include a pccard slot to be honest, but I sure wanted them too, lol

 

[MacinDoc]

Apple called me twice today; needed verbal verification of a ship to address different from billing address. Asked for ship date and was told 9/23. I'll believe it when I see it.

Ordered mine on Aug 31 at 6:30 a.m., order status is for delivery to be on or before Sept 30. Incidentally, after I ordered, I received 2 emails confirming my order. The second email had the wrong configuration (I ordered one 512 MB DIMM, the second order added a second 512 MB DIMM). I phoned Apple, and its rep told me that he could fix the order, but he couldn't do so without cancelling the original order. I told him I would not tolerate losing my spot in the queue (if that acually means something) as a result of Apple's error, and he replied that he would take the matter up with his supervisor.

Come on Apple, bring your ordering system into the 21st century!

 

[zelmo]

The iMac pricing dropped $100. Would anyone have been remotely disturbed had Apple chosen to keep the old pricing intact, and had added a better GPU and another 256 ram?

Of course, many would still have complained that the GPU still wasn't top flight, and that you need at least a gig of ram.

 

[Doctor Q]

Apple called me twice today; needed verbal verification of a ship to address different from billing address. Asked for ship date and was told 9/23. I'll believe it when I see it.

You and others who have been given ship dates might want to post to the iMac G5 Ship Dates thread.

 

[daveg5]

The iMac pricing dropped $100. Would anyone have been remotely disturbed had Apple chosen to keep the old pricing intact, and had added a better GPU and another 256 ram?

Of course, many would still have complained that the GPU still wasn't top flight, and that you need at least a gig of ram.

Again I dont think its the GPU really, its the not having a choice to BTO now or ever, we wont to give apple our money, we just hoped that in the 2-4 years we keep the imac that we could upgrade the video once, thats all, preferably at the time of order for an extra charge so apple can make a profit no less.