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Of course my state of Minnesota would be party to something stupid like this.

Remove Apple from the story, is this still stupid? You did not even read the story did you? Always thinking as a stockholder and not a consumer....
 
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Remove Apple from the story, is this still stupid? You did not even read the story did you? Always thinking as a stockholder and not a consumer....
You can choose to do business with those who do offer third party repairs. You have options. The story is still stupid.

With all of the pressing things on these people's plates, this is what they are wasting our tax dollars on...sheesh! Healthcare is about to be taken away and all people can think about is if they can get their smartphone repaired at some indy repair shop.
 
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It is total crap that Apple seems to be trying to muscle everyone else out of the Apple business. If someone runs a repair shop wants to repair Apple products, they should be able to obtain parts and documentation from Apple. It really shouldn't be any different than the automobile service industry.

Except that phones today require a touch more skill than a corner mechanic.
 
You can choose to do business with those who do offer third party repairs. You have options. The story is still stupid.

With all of the pressing things on these people's plates, this is what they are wasting our tax dollars on...sheesh! Healthcare is about to be taken away and all people can think about is if they can get their smartphone repaired at some indy repair shop.
Let me put it another way, as a consumer, as stated by above poster would you like to go into a repair shop and have the part repaired for under £100 including labour or pay the current £1200+ for not a repair, but a logic board replacement.

Why are we okay with such waste that a £0.25 part that can be repaired, but we are defending the current model of getting a logic board replacement, this is awful as a consumer. Defending my cumsumer rights against greed is a good use of tax payer money......its saving you that hard earned earned cash.

Feel free to explain how you as a consumer are worse off by this ? As a loyal Apple follower you can still go straight to Apple and pay your £1200, others should have the option to pay £100 and just fix the part in question and not throw out the engine.
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Except that phones today require a touch more skill than a corner mechanic.
Makes no difference , tools to repair modern electronics have improved significantly. It's just a computer.
 
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I can't wait for Apple to have additional shipping time delays of new iPhones and other hot items as a direct result of this bad legislation. We can't make iPhones fast enough to meet demand because bad legislation requires us to keep parts for third parties on hand.

There is literally no reason for the government to be stepping in here. Apple has a process for being certified to do repairs. People need to follow the process for becoming an authorized to do repairs. That's for the consumers own safety. The problem is already solved.
 
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If what you need is indy repair shops, then clearly an Apple device is not for you. Sometimes somethings in life are not for you. You talk with your wallet. You can march over to some other store and buy and Android device. It's that simple. You have options of which Apple is one.

Yes, options are great -- that's why consumers should have the option to go to an independent repair shop or the manufacturer.
 
Hey, even if the bill passes, you all are still free to essentially buy a brand new device once your Apple gear goes poof out-of-warranty. (which is the only financially feasible option (third-party/DIY repairs aside) because Apple will charge you an arm and a leg to repair or replace the device.)

No sympathy with Apple on this one, not one tiny bit.

Glassed Silver:win
 
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Yeah right, you are so full of it.

Go find me a circuit board schematic for the Kemper, then Line 6's current amp lineup, and last year's Fender lineup. I wouldn't advise holding your breath.

The vast majority of guitar electronics products and even pro audio electronics manufacturers do not provide schematics, repair manuals or parts to anyone beyond their own authorized service centers.

Partially true. All of Fender's schematics are openly available, and until recently, a paper copy was included in the box. (Source: I have handled thousands of them.) But a fender amp is a simple circuit with discreet components.

However, a Kemper Profiler or a Line 6 amp is a totally different creature, and the majority of the circuit appears on a schematic as a "black box" processor. An increasing and overwhelming majority of electronic devices (including those made by Apple) are built the same way.

If you want to pack the most components in an enclosure and ensure that they are less prone to connection failures, you integrate them or solder them together.

If you want to build an engine that is more durable and requires less maintenance, you cast it in the fewest parts possible. This gives you fewer gaskets and mating surfaces. It also means that a failure, though less likely, will require an entire engine replacement. Is it rewarding to have a classic car that you service and tune yourself? Absolutely. However, the consumer market has spoken, and they want to just push a button and start using. Part of what makes that possible is keeping fingers out of places that they don't belong. Does it make life harder for the DIY crowd? Sure, but they still have options.

Love it or hate it, this is just the way consumers and manufacturers are evolving.
 
Is that your opinion or do you have some facts to back that up?
First of all step back from the keyboard and read what I wrote. There is nothing to back up. I basically stated that if you need something that Apple can't provide there are others who make computers and smartphones. I'm not going to back up something you can simply google search for yourself.
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Yes, options are great -- that's why consumers should have the option to go to an independent repair shop or the manufacturer.
Go to an authorized repair shop. That's the only way Apple can maintain the quality of the repair and the service. It's better for the consumer. Tinker people need to buy products they can tinker with themselves, go through Apple's authorized repair process or get a new hobby or tinker the best way they can as is. It is a simple as that. You can still tinker with your device if you want to. No one is stopping you from voiding your warranty. Apple probably doesn't want to be on the hook financially for problems related to hobbyists tinkering with their products and I agree.
 
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This thought process couldn't be more backwards. First it completely ignores the vast majority of what the bill is about. Second, if someone want to attempt a repair on their phone, car, TV, or computer, it's their right to do so. If Arn wants to repair his vape mod, it has no affect on you and your water bong. The same applies to electronics. <-- That's what the bill is about btw, electronics, not Apple products.
This legislation sounds consumer-friendly and deserves to be enacted. My only caveat however, insofar as it pertains to smartphones such as Apple's iPhone, would be repair of the TouchId sensor and anything involving the Secure Enclave co-processor, as these are vital components of the security structure of the smartphone owner's digital life, so to speak, and could be compromised by unscrupulous third-party repair shops.

Personally, I would be hesitant to let just anybody perform service repairs on those items of my iPhone.
 
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Yeah right, you are so full of it.

Go find me a circuit board schematic for the Kemper, then Line 6's current amp lineup, and last year's Fender lineup. I wouldn't advise holding your breath.

The vast majority of guitar electronics products and even pro audio electronics manufacturers do not provide schematics, repair manuals or parts to anyone beyond their own authorized service centers.

Further, you seem to be a real genius at repairing Macs, with zero help from Apple, and also unwittingly proved the opposite point you tried to make. Lol
I appreciate sceptcism. My fender came with a circuit schematic (for both the amp and foot switch). Even Fender posts their documentation and actively asks customers to post legacy documentation. I have not bought other amps new so maybe have a look... you may be surprised.

Not sure why you are so sceptical about doing smc level logic board repair. But sure, nobody but Apple can do them.
 
First of all step back from the keyboard and read what I wrote. There is nothing to back up. I basically stated that if you need something that Apple can't provide there are others who make computers and smartphones. I'm not going to back up something you can simply google search for yourself.
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Go to an authorized repair shop. That's the only way Apple can maintain the quality of the repair and the service. It's better for the consumer. Tinker people need to buy products they can tinker with themselves, go through Apple's authorized repair process or get a new hobby or tinker the best way they can as is. It is a simple as that. You can still tinker with your device if you want to. No one is stopping you from voiding your warranty. Apple probably doesn't want to be on the hook financially for problems related to hobbyists tinkering with their products and I agree.
First of all step back from the keyboard and read what I wrote. There is nothing to back up. I basically stated that if you need something that Apple can't provide there are others who make computers and smartphones. I'm not going to back up something you can simply google search for yourself.
[doublepost=1485499360][/doublepost]
Go to an authorized repair shop. That's the only way Apple can maintain the quality of the repair and the service. It's better for the consumer. Tinker people need to buy products they can tinker with themselves, go through Apple's authorized repair process or get a new hobby or tinker the best way they can as is. It is a simple as that. You can still tinker with your device if you want to. No one is stopping you from voiding your warranty. Apple probably doesn't want to be on the hook financially for problems related to hobbyists tinkering with their products and I agree.
What's wrong with you? Where is the problem to sell genuine parts to repair shops? Why do you think anyone with a phone under warranty would not go directly to Apple?
But guess what, most phones out there are out of warranty for a long time and people just don't buy new ones only because freaking Apple wants them to.
 
Except that phones today require a touch more skill than a corner mechanic.
I'd not consider myself professional but I have successfully done smc level logic board repairs to three Macs. I have also failed too. I once tried replacing the nand in an iPad mini and cooked the board (yet much was learned). It is important to note that I enjoy fixing things and have performed these repairs as a hobby rather than as a business. Although I admit iPhone front glass/digitizer replacement has gotten really old (but I still help out family friends when asked).

Still, the point is that Apple should not be permitted to block third party repairs by withholding basic documentation and parts.
 
You can't repair what wasn't designed to be repaired. If Apple is bent on glueing their devices shut, no amount of legislation can work around this.
We’ll see.
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No businesses should be allowed to run as they see fit and consumers can choose weather or not they want to purchase from those businesses. They know the rules going in.
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That's not their business model. Apple cant control the experience of how things get done and done properly. People complain that its Apple's fault when something goes wrong when they got third party repairs against the will of the business. I think it's just not smart. I'd rather have the full backing of Apple and not legislators getting involved where they don't need to be.
Actually consumers often don't know the rules going in as companies make it deliberately difficult. Ever read the whole macOS T’s & Cs?
No, didn't think so.
 
I am not sure you get it. Miniaturization doesn't matter. The problem is Apple does not share documentation. It is much harder to diagnose and repair anything when Apple makes it a puzzle.

With documentation, independent repair shops can fix many problems that Apple won't or won't do economically. For example, my 17" MBP died. Apple quoted me nearly $1000 to repair. I managed to get board and circuit schematics and traced the problem to a tiny surface mounted capacitor. It literally cost me $0.25 to replace it. Just this week Apple quoted my cousin $1200 for a logic board replacement. I traced the problem to liquid damage in the keyboard causing the SMC_ONOFF to short. Literally a $23 repair. Without documentation there is no sane way to trace problems and identify/test/repair. In just two examples here, I showed savings of almost $2200 off what Apple Service quoted simply because I had documentation.

Apple clearly has financial motivation to hinder any means for independent repairs. The irony is that Apple does not even seem to use the documentation that it hates to share. They make no attempt to actually repair faulty parts (they throw them out and install whole new part). And with the trend towards ever more integrated components (i.e. soldered SSDs), it is going to get far more expensive to do repairs with Apple.

Wow - how did you find out which capacitor was at fault?
 
If what you need is indy repair shops, then clearly an Apple device is not for you. Sometimes somethings in life are not for you. You talk with your wallet. You can march over to some other store and buy and Android device. It's that simple. You have options of which Apple is one.

I once fixed an iPhone 4s which had a faulty sleep button, extremely tedious repair, but part was $3 and I had the time. Apple wanted to charge $300 for replacement. Sometimes indie repair is for you, I choose iPhone and would favor indie repair shops.
 
You can't repair what wasn't designed to be repaired. If Apple is bent on glueing their devices shut, no amount of legislation can work around this.

The AirPods literally could not exist under such legislation.

Agreed. The AirPods are a great example and the iPad Pro which uses a fairly large amount of adhesive for the batteries. It makes these products very difficult to repair versus just replacing it as a whole.

The AirPods would likely be next to nearly impossible to repair, being it would likely be costly in labor just to disassemble the alleged issue and replace the device would be more efficient.

I know iFixit mentioned the difficulty of the repair with iPad Pro and the AirPods with the adhesive used.
 
Partially true. All of Fender's schematics are openly available, and until recently, a paper copy was included in the box. (Source: I have handled thousands of them.) But a fender amp is a simple circuit with discreet components.

However, a Kemper Profiler or a Line 6 amp is a totally different creature, and the majority of the circuit appears on a schematic as a "black box" processor. An increasing and overwhelming majority of electronic devices (including those made by Apple) are built the same way.

If you want to pack the most components in an enclosure and ensure that they are less prone to connection failures, you integrate them or solder them together.

If you want to build an engine that is more durable and requires less maintenance, you cast it in the fewest parts possible. This gives you fewer gaskets and mating surfaces. It also means that a failure, though less likely, will require an entire engine replacement. Is it rewarding to have a classic car that you service and tune yourself? Absolutely. However, the consumer market has spoken, and they want to just push a button and start using. Part of what makes that possible is keeping fingers out of places that they don't belong. Does it make life harder for the DIY crowd? Sure, but they still have options.

Love it or hate it, this is just the way consumers and manufacturers are evolving.
I enjoyed your post. Yeah, modeling amps have more complex components. Still, I come to a different conclusion. Even with a "black box" in the board, with the schematic you can at least find test points and trace faults. If the fault is a resistor or IC or whatever , they can still be checked, tested, replaced as needed. I do not need to know how the IC works internally if I can order up a replacement, fire up my rework station, and replace it.
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Wow - how did you find out which capacitor was at fault?
Hard to summarize concisely. In most simple terms: know the symptoms, use circuit schematic to look up where fault is likely to be. Use board view to find physical location. Use test points to check voltage. Narrow it down as much as possible (ideally a single component). Complex damage is out of my league but I still think it is amazing what can be repaired.
 
Partially true. All of Fender's schematics are openly available, and until recently, a paper copy was included in the box. (Source: I have handled thousands of them.) But a fender amp is a simple circuit with discreet components.

However, a Kemper Profiler or a Line 6 amp is a totally different creature, and the majority of the circuit appears on a schematic as a "black box" processor. An increasing and overwhelming majority of electronic devices (including those made by Apple) are built the same way.

If you want to pack the most components in an enclosure and ensure that they are less prone to connection failures, you integrate them or solder them together.

If you want to build an engine that is more durable and requires less maintenance, you cast it in the fewest parts possible. This gives you fewer gaskets and mating surfaces. It also means that a failure, though less likely, will require an entire engine replacement. Is it rewarding to have a classic car that you service and tune yourself? Absolutely. However, the consumer market has spoken, and they want to just push a button and start using. Part of what makes that possible is keeping fingers out of places that they don't belong. Does it make life harder for the DIY crowd? Sure, but they still have options.

Love it or hate it, this is just the way consumers and manufacturers are evolving.

Nope, totally true. Pay attention, I said last year's Fender lineup. The overwhelming majority of the market, Marshall, Soldano, Boogie, Roland and Fender... all authorized service only.

Kemper is a much of an amp as the iPhone is a phone. It amplifies a guitar output level, screws with the signal and powers speakers, that's all a guitar amp is. Exactly the same as anything Line 6.

Just because some hippy burnout with a soldering iron can't suss out some ICs, that doesn't change the nature of the product.

Anyways... this law has zero chance, the liability baked into existing manufacrurer's warranties is pretty well established legally from a variety of vectors. There's no reasonable legal angle that would compel manufacturers to facilitate this scheme. So... stillborn.
 
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If what you need is indy repair shops, then clearly an Apple device is not for you. Sometimes somethings in life are not for you. You talk with your wallet. You can march over to some other store and buy and Android device. It's that simple. You have options of which Apple is one.
And that is just a load of crap, disproven by the millions of iPhone users who get Indy screen replacements every year.
 
I can't wait for Apple to have additional shipping time delays of new iPhones and other hot items as a direct result of this bad legislation. We can't make iPhones fast enough to meet demand because bad legislation requires us to keep parts for third parties on hand.

There is literally no reason for the government to be stepping in here. Apple has a process for being certified to do repairs. People need to follow the process for becoming an authorized to do repairs. That's for the consumers own safety. The problem is already solved.


Safety ? Authorised repair centres are about the cash flow, you have no idea who works on your machine.

As an example , When it comes to my car and my safety, my mechanic I trust , I know it's them working on my car, I don't trust dropping it off to the dealer for a car I spent a fortune on to have an apprentice work on it . That's the reality of the situation.

Please explain safety concerns ? And how the law does not protect you?
 
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