New Mac Pro Deliveries Begin, European Orders 'Assembled in China'

[Digital Skunk]

Maybe Apple should make a version for prosumers, it's a market much larger than the high-level professionals.

Apple seem to have ignored a massive opportunity for a lower end model. I wouldn’t define them as ‘prosumers’ but more like the average professional workstation level. And no, the imac is not it.

I agree .... BUT .... those systems actually have a very low ROI for both the users and Apple. Those Optiplex/Envy (I forget what HP called their mid-range business line) systems are very much like toasters. The Optiplex (five contracts I have use Dells, sorry for the bias) can be tuned with Xeon chips but most machines are very basic and rarely upgraded.

When they are the entire rig is pulled, parted, recycled, and wiped (the HDD) and most users just get a new machine.

For mid-range pros, the plastic Optiplex with decent guts does run into the $2000+ price range, but still doesn't last as long performance wise compared to a Xeon system, and by the time you start talking Xeon with ample RAM and GPU you're pushing $5k and still the Optiplex chassis isn't built for much expansion.

The very second you step foot into Precision (or HP's Z line) you're hitting Mac Pro prices.

For the average consumer, totally, but for wide deployments across a university or 500+ employee corp it's run of the mill guts. The iMac would actually be a better proposition if they weren't Windows houses or if they really REALLY needed to use a specific type of monitor and then you might get away with a Mac Mini.

Three 8K streams may be on the fringes in 2019, but the equivalent three to six 4K streams of ProRes RAW isn’t at all, whether for a live events or editing a live event previously recorded.

This, and let's not forget that handling 3 streams of 8k is just a relatable benchmark. If Apple said, "Our new Mac Pro is hitting 38977 on DXO and getting 4000 at such and such testbeds."

It means nothing to most average and pro users.

I do the same thing when I inform my boss or client that they should upgrade.

Boss: "Why this machine?"
Me: "NERD TALK"
Boss: NO!

Instead I say, "I'll be able to turn around projects faster, pick up more projects long term, and have less downtime for the next 3 years." And she's/he's more likely to say yes.

So 3 streams of 8K is like saying clocking 160FPS in Skyrim. Or, an editor knows that she'll be able to handle 6 streams of 4k with no problem.

I'm not saying you can't. Mac is a perfectly good platform. what I'm saying is if you need the performance of a Mac Pro and you run Adobe CC you would be better off running your work on a PC. Purely from a price/performance point of view as there is no difference in operation (other than speed) once you are in the application.

I still think a user would be best served by a Xeon system, and in that case the price difference is negligible. With content creation, the last thing a user wants is to be thrown out of the zone because of a beachball or sluggish machine. And a single user isn't going to upgrade as often as they should, so the machine needs to last as long as possible.

The last HP Z workstation (Xeon) I deployed was 9 years old before I pulled it. I also pulled a 12 year old PowerMac G5 (ver1) from a Pro Tools D-Command studio (still used PCI-X cards so they waited to have the $$$$ to upgrade the entire suite) and they weren't sluggish in the least.

Again, PC or Mac. For years I've been urging solo creators to invest in their systems. I have friends who insist on spending $4000 on a MacBook Pro then I hear they've missed deadlines.

Well dude! Your trying to edit 4k RAW on a laptop! Then they ask me for my advice on a new system and I tell them .... yet again ... to drop the coin on a WORKSTATION.

p.s. Thanks for the article, because this quote here is basically what a lot of mid to high end users are saying. "The machines and the hardware cannot get in the way anymore."

 

[shaunp]

I agree .... BUT .... those systems actually have a very low ROI for both the users and Apple. Those Optiplex/Envy (I forget what HP called their mid-range business line) systems are very much like toasters. The Optiplex (five contracts I have use Dells, sorry for the bias) can be tuned with Xeon chips but most machines are very basic and rarely upgraded.

When they are the entire rig is pulled, parted, recycled, and wiped (the HDD) and most users just get a new machine.

For mid-range pros, the plastic Optiplex with decent guts does run into the $2000+ price range, but still doesn't last as long performance wise compared to a Xeon system, and by the time you start talking Xeon with ample RAM and GPU you're pushing $5k and still the Optiplex chassis isn't built for much expansion.

The very second you step foot into Precision (or HP's Z line) you're hitting Mac Pro prices.

For the average consumer, totally, but for wide deployments across a university or 500+ employee corp it's run of the mill guts. The iMac would actually be a better proposition if they weren't Windows houses or if they really REALLY needed to use a specific type of monitor and then you might get away with a Mac Mini.



This, and let's not forget that handling 3 streams of 8k is just a relatable benchmark. If Apple said, "Our new Mac Pro is hitting 38977 on DXO and getting 4000 at such and such testbeds."

It means nothing to most average and pro users.

I do the same thing when I inform my boss or client that they should upgrade.

Boss: "Why this machine?"
Me: "NERD TALK"
Boss: NO!

Instead I say, "I'll be able to turn around projects faster, pick up more projects long term, and have less downtime for the next 3 years." And she's/he's more likely to say yes.

So 3 streams of 8K is like saying clocking 160FPS in Skyrim. Or, an editor knows that she'll be able to handle 6 streams of 4k with no problem.



I still think a user would be best served by a Xeon system, and in that case the price difference is negligible. With content creation, the last thing a user wants is to be thrown out of the zone because of a beachball or sluggish machine. And a single user isn't going to upgrade as often as they should, so the machine needs to last as long as possible.

The last HP Z workstation (Xeon) I deployed was 9 years old before I pulled it. I also pulled a 12 year old PowerMac G5 (ver1) from a Pro Tools D-Command studio (still used PCI-X cards so they waited to have the $$$$ to upgrade the entire suite) and they weren't sluggish in the least.

Again, PC or Mac. For years I've been urging solo creators to invest in their systems. I have friends who insist on spending $4000 on a MacBook Pro then I hear they've missed deadlines.

Well dude! Your trying to edit 4k RAW on a laptop! Then they ask me for my advice on a new system and I tell them .... yet again ... to drop the coin on a WORKSTATION.

p.s. Thanks for the article, because this quote here is basically what a lot of mid to high end users are saying. "The machines and the hardware cannot get in the way anymore."

I agree, you get what you pay for.... sometimes. Some benchmarks have been released for the Mac Pro now and as expected at the low-mid tier it's more about flexibility of the platform than performance and at that point you need to question whether the Mac Pro is really for you as it's a lot more expensive than an iMac Pro but doesn't give much more in terms of performance. You need to step up above 16 cores for the Mac Pro to make sense. However Threadripper is a big spanner in the works in this argument if you don't need more than 256GB RAM and you aren't running Mac-only apps. If you do need large amounts of RAM then you have no choice than a Xeon-based workstation realistically as not many Epyc systems are around at this point and there's no point having a DIY setup at that level as the support for these systems is key.

In hindsight I think the mistake Apple have done is releasing with such a low base spec that immediately draws comparisons with the iMac and iMac Pro. They should have started higher up the food chain if the intention was to not make a machine that was a direct replacement for the 5,1.

But yes agree, there's no point cutting corners if your livelihood depends on the kit you are using.

 

[Digital Skunk]

I agree, you get what you pay for.... sometimes.

Yes, and I'd add that the base model Mac Pro really starts at $7000, since the 12 core is the only CPU anyone should consider at that level. And as you said, I've been watching bench tests and app tests and the 16" MBP is trouncing the 12c Mac Pro with base GPU in some tests.

Not that anyone could, would or should say the MBP is faster. I just want to make sure that horse is really dead now; $7000 isn't a bad price considering the overhead you have on a server based system.

 

[weckart]

US Vat is added after the price and is different per state. Also UK import duty Is the Other issue. You can blame the current UK government for silently taming that up over the years.

Import duty on computers hardware and software is still a fat 0% and has been since forever. There isn't a domestic industry to protect. That goes for pretty much all of Europe, EU or not. VAT is the only issue.

I voted out for 2 reasons. The city closest to me has changed beyond belief. I’m not the only one to say that. What was once a decent town is now absolutely full of rough sleepers (mostly romanian) and there are 2 agencies that pay minimum wage (I have my own career but know a lad who works there) and they purposely favour immigrants. That is just wrong. What happened to the local people just come out of school that can’t get a job?
Secondly I genuinely feel that the UK is too full. Im all for genuine people wanting to live here and would never mock people struggling to have a good life but there are far too many people coming here for benefits and benefits alone.

If we had trustworthy politicians and had a pledge to stop that then I would change my vote.

You were dreaming. The UK has always had control over its immigration policy. The only proviso was the Free Movement of People stipulation, which works both ways. If you haven't got a job after 3 months you can be deported, which would get rid of the rough sleepers. The UK doesn't bother with this. Leaving the EU won't change any of this. The rough sleepers will still come as the UK is very unlikely to move to a visa regime for visitors and given that the UK cannot be bothered to police its own borders effectively nothing will change except we will all get a little poorer. Those industries that rely on seasonal workers that the local populace will not service (farms, mostly) are going to really struggle if just getting a crop picker means filling in endless forms and waiting forever for clearance.

 

[Macs4u]

Import duty on computers hardware and software is still a fat 0% and has been since forever. There isn't a domestic industry to protect. That goes for pretty much all of Europe, EU or not. VAT is the only issue.



You were dreaming. The UK has always had control over its immigration policy. The only proviso was the Free Movement of People stipulation, which works both ways. If you haven't got a job after 3 months you can be deported, which would get rid of the rough sleepers. The UK doesn't bother with this. Leaving the EU won't change any of this. The rough sleepers will still come as the UK is very unlikely to move to a visa regime for visitors and given that the UK cannot be bothered to police its own borders effectively nothing will change except we will all get a little poorer. Those industries that rely on seasonal workers that the local populace will not service (farms, mostly) are going to really struggle if just getting a crop picker means filling in endless forms and waiting forever for clearance.

Dreaming? The UK is overrun with people from Europe. Overrun. You mention the 3 months of unemployment. NO EU country has done that. The issue is that people are coming through Austria, Germany, France to get to the UK. The rules are that they should stay in the first EU country they come to. Why is it every country is ignoring this and allowing them to the UK. They are allowing it as they don’t want the problem and expense. Getting out of the EU permanently STOPS this. We have no power whatsoever to turn the immigrants away whilst in the EU. Also we are moving to a points based visa program so your other comment is moot. Regarding workers for farms etc, why do you think that farmers and other industries want immigration to continue? Have you ever thought why? Cheap labour. That’s the only reason. Instead of paying somebody a decent wage they pay the bare minimum which is mopped up by people from Romania where the living wage there is tiny. I personally know of a place that rents out a unit to a bunch of Romanian men. Fair play they are running a business. What isn’t fair play is that I know that they are housing at least 30 Romanian men who are working at agencies around the town. They all live there for peanuts, living like animals. Pay hardly any bills. Earn what they can and then go home. Next lot comes in. This will be stopped and I can’t wait for that to happen. British kids coming out of school have no hope for a job at the moment.

 

[weckart]

Dreaming? The UK is overrun with people from Europe. Overrun. You mention the 3 months of unemployment. NO EU country has done that. The issue is that people are coming through Austria, Germany, France to get to the UK. The rules are that they should stay in the first EU country they come to. Why is it every country is ignoring this and allowing them to the UK. They are allowing it as they don’t want the problem and expense. Getting out of the EU permanently STOPS this. We have no power whatsoever to turn the immigrants away whilst in the EU. Also we are moving to a points based visa program so your other comment is moot.

First: The UK is so "overrun" with "people from Europe" that the government has increased the number of non-EU migrants to make up for the shortfall and will continue to do so. The government has released figures showing that unemployment figures in the UK are currently the lowest since 1975 (if you lend any credence to the way the numbers are collated). Businesses are already complaining that they can't find the staff, so yeah. Overrun.

Second: Rules are rules. If they aren't applied it makes little difference whether we are members or not. The Dublin Regulation stipulates that refugees should make a claim for asylum in the first EU state they land in but you cannot force a refugee to do so and, without papers, where would you deport them to? Syria? Iraq? France?
As it stands, the navy has returned Iranian migrants from capsized boats to France recently, so it does happen. Once they hit our shores, they become our problem and the Geneva Convention is the reason why. The italicised items are by me to show you what you are up against.

The contracting states shall not

• impose penalties on refugees who entered illegally in search of asylum if they present themselves without delay (Article 31), which is commonly interpreted to mean that their unlawful entry and presence ought not to be prosecuted at all
• expel refugees (Article 32)
• forcibly return or refoul refugees to the country they've fled from (Article 33). It is widely accepted that the prohibition of forcible return is part of customary international law. This means that even states that are not party to the 1951 Refugee Convention must respect the principle of non-refoulement. Therefore, states are obligated under the Convention and under customary international law to respect the principle of non-refoulement. If and when this principle is threatened, UNHCR can respond by intervening with relevant authorities, and if it deems necessary, will inform the public.

Leaving the EU won't make a blind bit of difference. Good luck getting France or any other EU member state to accept any refugee pitching up on our shores after January 2020. Why should they after we have stuck two fingers up to them?

As for your visa issue, it won't remove the rough sleepers. Part of the WA is that those already in the UK get to stay. If we don't start deporting them, then they will continue to sleep on the streets.

 

[Macs4u]

I don’t care what any government says about being overrun with immigrants. 25yrs ago there were nowhere near as many immigrants and the country did OK. Life isn’t all about gdp and profit. Nobody can have a decent life anymore. Just go into Crewe for example. It’s getting to be like a third world town. Just how big does the population of the UK have to grow before somebody says enough.

 

[SarcasticJoe]

There are "genuine reasons" for the pricing of the Mac Pro. First and foremost, Apple has every right to price the product to what the market will support. Full stop.

What's genuine and what's not is obviously a matter of opinion... However here in Finland we have a saying that roughly translates to English as "It's not stupid to ask a ridiculous price, but it is to actually pay it".