If it has DRAM cache, I'd expect at least 256MB, but more likely 512-1024MB DRAM in those sizes is cheap as dirt, just need the PCB+ASIC/Controller space, the easiest way to find out is to get hold of the SSD board, look at what chips it has, then look up spec sheets for the chips. Perhaps someone who already owns one will post a high-res photo of one...
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New Mac Pro: Simultaneous Real-Time 4K Effect Rendering, +900MB/s Read/Write
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If it has DRAM cache, I'd expect at least 256MB, but more likely 512-1024MB DRAM in those sizes is cheap as dirt, just need the PCB+ASIC/Controller space, the easiest way to find out is to get hold of the SSD board, look at what chips it has, then look up spec sheets for the chips. Perhaps someone who already owns one will post a high-res photo of one...
I remember back in the '90s QuarkXPress was THE desktop publishing tool. The company was so poor at customer support and updates they basically killed their business. Time will tell whether Avid or FCP is the Quark of NLEs. Sounds like Avid is headed that way, especially considering how expensive it is and how many major independent films are being made nowadays. The Coen brothers use FCP.
Ok. lets calm down just a little.
1. I agree. However, if you look back the amount of ram has been one of the differentiators between the workstation cards and a consumer card.
2. No, I didn't even make that statement. My argument is that there are higher stability requirements for the workstation cards than for the consumer cards.
3. Not sure, I was merely speculating about how it could be that the cards in the new MP are so relatively cheap, that's all.
4. Correct. 290X is actually superior to the W9000. W9000 is a 7970 with more ram and fancy drivers and then AMD charge 5-6 times more for it. If you look at the specs it seems like the D300 is based on Cape Verde just like the 77xx series of cards whilst D500 and D700 are based on the Tahiti just like the 79xx and the W9000. Sadly the Tahiti was released in August 2012. I actually think the MP should have Hawaii tech in it.
5. No, not saying that.
6. I see no reason for the D500 and D700 to be inferior to W9000, except for memory in the D500 case. They seem to be all Tahiti cards. I actually think the naming difference is enforced by AMD in an attempt to protect their Wxxx biz.
Just for the record: I have always stated that the AMD consumer and workstation cards are equivalent and the only differences are memory and drivers. To me that doesn't justify the price difference. I am under the impression that the only reason they are that more expensive is because they can charge that much. If I am generous it could be higher grade components in general but that shouldn't add up to more than 50% markup. Add another 50% for the memory and you get a fair price point of 200% of the consumer card price. Also, this is not the case for nVidia as the actively cripple their consumer cards.
Speculation, Apple could buy AMD for 2.5-5% of their free cash. AMD is running at a loss. So regarding AMD opening its spec to Apple, yeah they would. But they might ask for money for doing so.
It appears you are rather limited in your knowledge and appreciation of computers. I have built many computers over the years. These include many Windows PC's. I have a deep understanding of how everything works together, what the strengths and weaknesses are, and how the different OS solutions compare. Because I say that the New MacPro will be a great piece of hardware for some people you think this makes me a Mac Fanboy? You are hilarious. It depends on what you need. For some people this is their perfect solution, for others it is a bad solution. This is not a contest between Macs and PC's. Open your mind a little my friend, things are not as black and white as you seem to think. Grow up.
It utterly amazes me how some people think they are the ONLY ones with computer knowledge and therefore everyone else's opinion means jack. I too have built computers over the years. I've been using them since 1981 and I've got two degrees in Electronic Engineering and I see the new Mac Pro as a mixed bag. The internals that are there are fine. The problem is the utter lack of long-term value. You've got one hell of a pricey machine here and that's fine if it's going to pay for itself. And it appears to be nice and up-to-date, but when you consider two seemingly minor details that people keep overlooking, it adds up to this machine not being as good as it looks on the surface.
Yes, it's up to date *NOW*. Apple does not have a good track record on keeping the Mac Pro up-to-date over the past decade and in the past the machine was expandable (including PowerMacs before it). So there was at least the possibility of 3rd parties offering GPU and CPU expansion to help keep it up to date as time passes and Apple magically doesn't offer a newer model when people NEED the extra power. I don't care if you're a consumer or a professional, a SLOW machine is a DEAD machine. Apple's ability to keep the Mac Pro up-to-date and relevant year-by-year is ABYSMAL. Their track record of screwing up their Pro Apps (as in Final Cut Pro X which cost them dearly and huge delays to updates to Logic Pro) means they not only seem to think that Pros should not have up-to-date computer hardware available to them, but they should just keep using two to four year old software as well.
Meanwhile, Windows machines come out with the latest updates every few months and all the hardware is user upgradeable. In short, the USER decides when it's time to upgrade their gear or software instead of Apple holding them hostage to an outdated system with absolutely no idea whether the thing will even get an update, let alone a time frame when it will get an update. That unpredictability is just horrid when you're making a living off something and all the people on here claiming to be "Pros" and acting like those things don't matter are 100% full of it or utterly fanatical Mac fans because those things DO matter. Frankly, just because some people make money editing home videos for their neighborhood doesn't make them "Pros" in my opinion compared to those that edit TV shows and movies on a daily basis. Those groups would NEVER put up with this kind of shoddy unpredictability and they haven't. They've already figured out Apple isn't serious about this market and have already left. The new Mac Pro isn't for these groups. It's for advanced amateurs and hobbyists. No, it's not crap hardware, but it's specialized hardware and it's unpredictable if you will be able to replace it when you need more power. It's certainly not something you will upgrade yourself in all likelihood.
People on here talk about paying for their new Mac Pro in a few projects/days/weeks. But what does that have to do with needing a new model with more power and finding NONE available a year or two from now as Apple waits 3+ years between updates because the machine isn't important to them? It's unacceptable and a huge gamble and because Apple doesn't do time-frames or announce their intentions ahead of time. That's simply unacceptable in a professional environment. You want to know what will be available and when. Apple can play games with its consumer products and iPhones all it wants. Ironically, many of THOSE products have become relatively predictable as of late as we see fairly consistent timetables. We see no such thing for the Mac Pro or their Pro software packages. You just wait and wait and wait and wonder. Now how can any "professional" possibly justify that? Yeah, if you like to play hop, skip, jump and keep Windows machines in addition to a Mac Pro, etc., you may get some use out of it, but why bother? It's not like there aren't professional level machines out there for Windows. The Mac always seems to get their software updated last even with third parties. Some leave altogether and come back years later, etc. It's also less predictable. None of them are going to leave the Windows market any time soon.
I really like OSX. It doesn't have all the malware and garbage Windows has, no registry slow-downs and has been relatively free of kernel panics and the like for a good while now. But OSX isn't the real problem (save gaming type support from Apple which is abysmal). It's the hardware and software packages that some people need to be updated in a timely manner. Now if you think you can make your money back in a week, more power to you, but it's not as if Windows users can't do the same and thus I conclude that any professionals on here have more going on in their heads to buy a Mac than just a matter of hardware.
The mere fact you think the entire "creative industries" are "still hundred percent exclusively Mac" tells me you haven't seen much your whole life, apparently. So you've played around in your town's local studio and they've used Macs your entire life? That must be it since your statement is almost 100% false. Hey, I like Logic Pro and unlike video editing, it doesn't "need" to be updated constantly to be useful. Skilled musicians should be able to work with an analog tape multi-track to record something if necessary. High tech tools just make life easier. But video editing is a time issue. It's a whole different ball game. Apple USED to be popular in a lot of areas, but that was long ago when Windows was total garbage. Apple used to be known for its graphics. No longer. Now it's known for phones. Yes, there's still plenty of Macs out there. But it's nowhere NEAR 100%. That statement is absurd.
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A very well thought out and insightful post. You bring up some very good points. It would make sense that a true professional market wouldn't wait for years for updates if they were readily available elsewhere.
Did you even read that thread? It's all theoretical, no actual discussion of performance.
But you're talking highly of Apple and I'm over here asking for actual facts, so of course I'm the evil one.
It appears you are rather limited in your knowledge and appreciation of computers. I have built many computers over the years. These include many Windows PC's. I have a deep understanding of how everything works together, what the strengths and weaknesses are, and how the different OS solutions compare. Because I say that the New MacPro will be a great piece of hardware for some people you think this makes me a Mac Fanboy? You are hilarious. It depends on what you need. For some people this is their perfect solution, for others it is a bad solution. This is not a contest between Macs and PC's. Open your mind a little my friend, things are not as black and white as you seem to think. Grow up.
I have also built many computers over the years. I also worked for AMD in QA for a time.
And no, that isn't why I called you and others a fanboy. I said that because you are blinded by your bias. Will it be a great piece of hardware for some people? Of course. Is it an example of a great workstation? Absolutely not.
If you weren't blinded by your fanboyism, you would step back and realize that the tiny formfactor is horrendous for the purpose. It isn't a laptop, it's a workstation. It should be designed for maximum customization, make it as easy as possible for users to get in and replace and repair and upgrade. Instead, Apple decided to make it pretty. Why? Because people like you see it and start foaming at the mouth... not because of how impressive of a machine it is, but because it's Apple and it's "different" so of course it is the greatest thing ever created by man.
The new mac pro looks like an amazing machine, and it would be... if it was supposed to be a regular PC.
If this thing had exactly the same specs, exactly the same price, exactly the same performance, but a "Dell" tag on it, you would be on a crusade telling people how dumb Dell is for making a workstation in such a form factor.
But it's Apple, so clearly I am wrong because Apple is perfect, and this machine will be the second coming.
But go on and continue telling me that I need to grow up because I lack the bias you have.
Now you're going to tell me that I have a bias. You would be incorrect. I have no brand loyalty, but instead loyalty to whatever will give me the best bang for the buck. In the market the mac pro is in, the ability to upgrade a machine on your own is crucial. Simply throwing something out and buying a new one after a few years is out of the question and indescribably financially irresponsible. Sure, you can upgrade RAM (or spend an inexcusably disgusting premium to get more when you order it), but that's not the only thing people upgrade over the years.
So, yes, I'm immature. Why? Because I'm more concerned with the total package of the product, instead of only being concerned with the logo.
lol.. you want performance facts and nobody has even received their orders yet.. good luck
Why, exactly? I mean, sure, I get that some people need this capability. Probably even a lot of people. But you should be careful proclaiming "should." Says who?
We've got many Mac Pros here at my company and I think I've upgraded a grand total of one video card in all the time we've been buying them and that's just because the original card failed. I've done lots of RAM upgrades, a bunch of HD to SSD upgrades, but there's not a single PCIe slot in use here other than the GPU that shipped with the machines. I did try to add an esata port to one of our machines once. I tried two or three cards that claimed to be compatible, but I eventually gave up because it was too unstable and the drivers sucked. It's not like the old platform was a wonderland of expandability and customization to begin with. I think Thunderbolt will be a better solution for us in that regard.
The new Mac Pro is a great platform for us and I'm looking forward to migrating our old Pros to them over the coming years.
lol.. you want performance facts and nobody has even received their orders yet.. good luck
You don't see the hypocrisy in this response?
You blindly say it's better because of opinion and when I ask for proof you laugh at me because there isn't any.
So basically you have no place to be saying the new mac pro is superior, even though people are saying it's the greatest thing ever left and right.
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So I'm wrong and you're right because of your one anecdotal example? You are seriously suggesting that end users of workstation computers never, ever, ever need to do any sort of upgrades whatsoever?
It constantly baffles me how every iteration of Apple products gets more and more closed off, and how fanboys such as yourself trip over yourselves to defend it. Meanwhile, if Microsoft was doing the same thing you'd be suggesting they were pure evil and destroying the consumer's ability to use their purchased devices.
OH WAIT, that's exactly what you're doing in regards to the Surface.
actually, i never said anything was superior or whatever it is you're trying to imply..
it pretty obvious you're prancing around here wearing an "I eat fanbois" t-shirt.. you know your intent.. the key is realizing that others do too.
Where did I say that you were wrong or that I was right? I was just warning you against drawing any kind of grand, sweeping conclusions from your personal position. I've not done that.
Where did I say that? I just explained my experience wrangling an office full of them. In our situation, absolutely that's been the case. And, to be sure, I never even implied that we've not done "any sort of upgrades whatsoever," so you can drop the histrionics. I clearly explained we've upgraded RAM frequently (still possible in the nMP era) and some hard drives to SSDs (sounds like increasing SSD capacity in the nMP era is still going to be straightforward too).
Care to defend this assertion? Tell me what I think about Microsoft. Please. Be specific.
Please link to any post I've made about the Microsoft Surface. I'll wait.
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I don't prance, I skip.
I don't enjoy "eating" fanboys, I find it unpleasant. What I DO is enjoy is trying to help people get over their unbelievably obvious bias.
My bias is for whatever gives me the best bang for my buck, I don't blindly follow any one brand.
Except diet coke, I really don't like diet pepsi.
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If you'd been paying attention (which you weren't), you'd have noticed I was referring to blind fanboys in general, not you specifically.
I would, however, shock me if that wasn't your stance anyways.
Also, in regard to hard drive upgrading, what have you seen to make you believe it's even possible to upgrade or replace the hard drive in the new mac pro? Is there an image of Apple showing how this is done? The images that are publicly available seem to indicate that the hard drive you have is the hard drive you get.
Generally this is referred to as a straw man argument. If nobody in this thread has actually said the things you're arguing against, I'm not quite sure why you seem so worked up. You realize, I trust, that this is a forum of real people who have nuanced and reasoned opinions and positions. It is these people you are yelling at, not some hypothetical, synthetic "fanboy in general" construct that you invent to make your position seem more reasonable. HTH. HAND.
Now who isn't paying attention? (hint: it's you)
There's a hard drive in the new Mac Pro?!
Edit to add reference:
"Changing Memory and SSDs The enclosure release should always be in the locked position except when removing the housing. When the housing is replaced after changing memory or the SSD, be sure to put the lock back in the locked position. Failure to do so may result in physical damage to your Mac Pro from falling because the case lock switch was not locked when Mac Pro was lifted using the top handle."
(From Mac Pro Important Product Information Guide)
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Alternatives?
I am not a computer expert. I’m a photographer (with a masters in digital photography from SVA in NYC). When I’m not shooting, I’m processing in Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop (thousands of high megapixel files weekly). My files can get 100+ layers deep in PS with GB sizes that max out Photoshop’s ability to save. I have a MP that has 6 internal drives (2 PCIe SSDs) with many more external drives for backup connected by eSATA. Building out my MP over the years has created slowness and stability issues that frustrate my workflow and make me want to do something else with my life. I do not like that Apple doles out upgrades long after I need them and charges a fortune each time. This problem has been aggravated now that MBPs and MPs are not particularly flexible for upgrades for people like me. I am also particularly frustrated at the incremental increases in processing capability, rather than the 10x or 100x that the new prices justify. Of course, Apple just wants my money and does it with a smile. But just because Apple can get away with it does not make it responsible. And it definitely does not help me – so I’m looking around.
I’ve looked for alternative workstations to the new MP but have been frustrated in my searches. I need a stable, reliable reasonably flexible system, i.e., a workstation that can run Photoshop, Lightroom and other high end software that processes superfast (no #$%!! waiting please) that drive multiple screens with many, many terabits of critical files that constantly have to be backed up and stored on external drives. Gaming computer companies have expressed little interest in my needs. Most of the high end photography retouching studios in NYC that I’m aware of use MACs. (New MBPs (I own one) don’t even come close to meeting my needs.) So, if the creative industry has moved away from MPs, then what exactly are they using? Can you please be more specific? What specific workstations or systems are being configured and marketed for my purposes? (There are thousands like me out there.) Or is this segment of the creative industry building their own computers? I keep asking these questions and get no real useful answers.
By the way, I am aware that many on these forums just criticize other posts. I have little energy or patience for negativity. Can someone with some real perspective and working knowledge in my industry kindly climb up to about 30,000 feet, “get” the essence of what I’m saying and make some real life recommendations or observations? Thanks in advance.
I am not a computer expert. I’m a photographer (with a masters in digital photography from SVA in NYC). When I’m not shooting, I’m processing in Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop (thousands of high megapixel files weekly). My files can get 100+ layers deep in PS with GB sizes that max out Photoshop’s ability to save. I have a MP that has 6 internal drives (2 PCIe SSDs) with many more external drives for backup connected by eSATA. Building out my MP over the years has created slowness and stability issues that frustrate my workflow and make me want to do something else with my life. I do not like that Apple doles out upgrades long after I need them and charges a fortune each time. This problem has been aggravated now that MBPs and MPs are not particularly flexible for upgrades for people like me. I am also particularly frustrated at the incremental increases in processing capability, rather than the 10x or 100x that the new prices justify. Of course, Apple just wants my money and does it with a smile. But just because Apple can get away with it does not make it responsible. And it definitely does not help me – so I’m looking around.
I’ve looked for alternative workstations to the new MP but have been frustrated in my searches. I need a stable, reliable reasonably flexible system, i.e., a workstation that can run Photoshop, Lightroom and other high end software that processes superfast (no #$%!! waiting please) that drive multiple screens with many, many terabits of critical files that constantly have to be backed up and stored on external drives. Gaming computer companies have expressed little interest in my needs. Most of the high end photography retouching studios in NYC that I’m aware of use MACs. (New MBPs (I own one) don’t even come close to meeting my needs.) So, if the creative industry has moved away from MPs, then what exactly are they using? Can you please be more specific? What specific workstations or systems are being configured and marketed for my purposes? (There are thousands like me out there.) Or is this segment of the creative industry building their own computers? I keep asking these questions and get no real useful answers.
By the way, I am aware that many on these forums just criticize other posts. I have little energy or patience for negativity. Can someone with some real perspective and working knowledge in my industry kindly climb up to about 30,000 feet, “get” the essence of what I’m saying and make some real life recommendations or observations? Thanks in advance.
nope, they're using macs..
people around here like to say things like "apple doesn't care about their pros" -or- "pros are going to leave mac because of the itrash can".. but in reality (or at least how i see it in real life-- in NYC and beyond), they design towards creatives more than any other computer company out there.
the mac pro has always been 'the computer for creatives' and it still is.. maybe even moreso now.
You are highly biased (and I mean highly) because you think everyone wants to, has to, needs to be a grease monkey and always be upgrading their hardware instead of just using it. That is quickly becoming a 1990's mindset.
Not sure why you are responding to my post? Everything I said and believe is pretty much in agreement with what you are saying. What specifically in my post do you take exception with? Maybe you replied to the wrong person? You think I am saying I am the only one with Computer knowledge? If so, that is a silly interpretation.
"If this thing had exactly the same specs, exactly the same price, exactly the same performance, but a "Dell" tag on it, you would be on a crusade telling people how dumb Dell is for making a workstation in such a form factor".
What in the world are you talking about? I have nothing against Dell or any other PC maker. Your problem is you see the world through your "anti Apple glasses". I have no intention of buying this new MacPro right now. I will wait and see how things shake out over the next few months. Even then I don't know if I will buy one. I use Logic Pro and so I have an 8 core Mac Pro that I use for music. I have used Logic long before it was Mac only. Not sure why you continue on about my "bias" when it is very apparent you are the one who is biased against Apple. My view is that: PC's are great and Mac's are great. It depends on what you need them for. Your view is: Mac's suck and only PC's are good. Which of us is biased?
I don't think you truly understand the purpose for the the FirePro series... They aren't meant to game with even though they are the best of the AMD HD 7970 chips. They have been tweaked to run better with AutoDesk Products like SoildWorks... SoildWorks is a beast of a program.. Another thing that everyone leaves out is that AMD has been going to companies like AutoDesk, and Adobe to get better support for there video cards and processors to make thing more GPU friendly. As we all now GPU's are far faster and better at vectors and FPU calculations then the CPU so why not leverage the GPU more.
For all those who say that Apple is wrong for not having a traditional GPU or typical tower design for an upgrade path... Well all I have to say is tough this isn't a gaming PC it's a WorkStation that you just have a HardDrive that is just big enough for the projects that you are working on and everything else on on SSD ThunderBolt 2 external drives that top out at 20Gb/s. Doing stuff this way makes the system run cooler and faster. Plus most companies upgrade whole systems about 2 to 4 yrs do to software upgrades and why change out TB's of hard drives like in a conventional WorkStation. The company I work for is on a 3/4 yr turnaround on hardware upgrade path do to advances in software. When we upgrade it's a totally new computer the only things that really remains is the CD/DVD drive and hard drive and case other than that it gets a new MB, CPU, GPU, power supply. Plus all over our work is stored on our servers.
So to all you gamers this isn't for you and was never for you..
So to all you gamers this isn't for you and was never for you..
I do understand... but when you get game junkies using a Pro card for gaming cause it has a fast GPU and wanting to see if it can go head to head with a gaming GPU. However when you do that the card is handicapped because the Pro card has different internal drivers that are meant for Pro applications not directX applications. The FirePro cards are heavy OpenCL, and OpenGL coded with very little directX support.
They've got the same DirectX support their lower end gamer GPUs have, since they're all built upon the same architecture. Of course this is an entirely moot point on a Mac, unless you plan on bootcamping.