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One part of what you write is correct; i.e. max out a computer to what you are able to afford. Another side of what you write is downright incorrect. From a capital expenditure point of view huge amounts of cash may be saved by having upgradeable machines. Not everyone is a "one man band" organisation. Some are large businesses with lots of computers that would cost a fortune if replaced without carrying out upgrades first. IT department costs are cheap in comparison to purchasing brand new computers every-time they no longer met requirements.

As for smaller one man bands who are only able to afford a certain amount for a computer, but know that they can afford to upgrade over the life time of the computer, what makes them not "professional"? You stating it is so? I do not think so.

You are very spoilt if you get a new Mac every time you get bored with the current one. That is not how most businesses work.
Why do people keep talking about "only able to afford a certain amount... but can afford more ..." later? A lot of businesses lease a computer, or get finance for it. You don't have to plant down X thousand dollars up front. If you can afford more over time then you can afford financing or leasing which spreads the cost out over time anyway. So this is not a good enough argument I'm afraid.
 
We kept a few in storage. We also setup a test space for figuring out deployment plans. The rest went to other IT departments within the company (it was a Fortune 500 company). Most of the junk accessories we e-wasted/recycled.

Apple will be happy to take all of your computers for free to ewaste/recycle, including PCs.
Yes, and it’s an unknown what’s actually happening with that e-waste. There’s been some investigation showing it’s not going where it’s claimed to or should go. Again, something is better than nothing, but not by much right now. We are still doing everything wrong as a civilization, in terms of resource usage.
 
Changing your own RAM does not make you a professional; it makes you an enthusiast/hobbyist/tinkerer.

I learned long ago that time spent messing around with your computer hardware and software generally detracts from the time you have to actually use it for productive work. Sure, it can be fun and educational, but it's not work (unless your work is upgrading or repairing computers).

Upgradeable machines are also (generally) cheaper to own if you can extend the usage lifetime through updates. This is often less of an issue for professionals working for corporations that have a relatively short machine refresh period, but for private owners it can make sense.

The more interesting question is how Apple would combine two different approaches to memory management in the same machine without compromising performance (i.e. combining high-bandwidth on-package RAM, with traditional memory buses running more slowly. You would need the a memory manager than work a bit like the old Apple Fusion drives did with recent data going on the SSD and less critical data pushed to an HDD. It's certainly possible, but we'll see...
That’s how I feel about being tech support for my own machines (it’s not my job at home, but I’m forced to do it and I hate it), but I certainly don’t find it a problem to occasionally upgrade something, if it’s not designed to treat a tech person like garbage, like so many Apple devices now do (looking at you, iMac).
 
There is so much wrong with your argument here I don't even know where to start.

Credibility out the door first as soon as you mention e-waste. I'm so tired of this argument. There is absolutely no reason any Mac (or PC for that matter) should wind up in landfill. Apple will take an Apple product, of any age, and many other companies' products, and recycle it for you, for free. For recent enough gear you can trade it in for money. And they'll repurpose or recycle the old one. E-waste is a straw-clutching argument.

Next you're trying to make comparisons between today's Mac Pro and 20 years old PowerMac G4's??! Ok, you're still using them for file servers? Serving what kinds of files to where? The newest MacOS a G4 can run is leopard. The security holes in that OS today, alone, are a major risk. The maintenance overhead on anything that old (hardware and software) to keep them (a) running, and (b) compatible with anything else your network needs must be problematic. What do you do when an ethernet port or logic board fails? ie. What does that cost in hardware repairs? And what does it cost in downtime also?

All power to you if that's what works for you but one of two things go from there: whatever time you're spending on maintaining those older machines is either...
(a) saving you more money than you make doing whatever you do for a living with these machines, in which case a Mac Pro isn't going to make you any more money than a Mac mini would and it's not financially sensible for you to justify being in the market for a Mac Pro anyway. Or...
(b) you'd make more money with the time spent maintaining that stuff if you spent it doing the work that makes your living with these tools, and you'd be better off making that money with your work and spending it on better hardware so you didn't have to maintain the old hardware (and software).

A brand new $800 Mac mini would easily replace multiple Power Mac G4s (you can't put more than 2GB in a PMG4, and it won't run anything better than leopard). Let's say you make $100 an hour. You can't tell me you're spending less than 8 hours per year maintaining those machines, or that a logic board or ethernet port or anything else hasn't blown in all the time you've had them.

What you're doing is perfectly ok if that's what you enjoy, but comparing that description to the work of anyone even remotely in the market for a Mac Pro is the part that's ludicrous.

A Mac Pro is supposed to be a high end business tool for people who generally make a lot of money using it. Artists, film makers, sound engineers, developers, maybe lawyers, & accountants, and any number of other professions where time is money time spent waiting for a slow computer means money lost. When a company or self employed individual could make $300 per hour from someone using a tool and the tool slows them down so that they can only deliver $200 an hour's worth (and therefore only charge that much), then it's very affordable to buy a better machine. It's got nothing to do with being rich or poor. If the expensive machine doesn't save you enough time such that you're not losing money for that lost time then what do you need the expensive machine for? It's not worth it and you should buy a cheaper computer to make the expense worth it.

And if your needs only warrant a cheaper computer then replacing it with another cheaper computer when its usefulness runs out is also affordable. It's simple economics.

I've got nothing against the idea that if a computer has upgradeable RAM then great, we can make use of that. But get your head out of your a... Tim Cook isn't soldering RAM to the inside of the SoC because he's a greedy bean counter. He's doing it because it makes the product better. Why should Apple cater to tinkerers at the cost of performance?

That $10K-$20K you mention is NOT $10K-$20K Painting that picture is a deception. Upgrading a modern Mac is easy. They hold their value better than any other PCs. You sell the old one, and buy a new one. That exercise doesn't cost $10K. For a $10K computer it might cost $2-3K. Whatever it is, let's call it $X.
In comparison, perhaps upgrading RAM in an existing computer costs $Y. And the kind of RAM that goes in a $10K computer is not cheap.
The cost of non-upgradeable RAM is not $X. It's the difference: $X - $Y = $Z. And $Z is usually not very much, especially when for $Z you get a new processor, storage, and all the other upgrades that also help improve the performance of the machine, which will (a) make you more money because you get your work done faster (if you're a professional who relies on the tool to get your job done, and if you're not then you don't need a $10K computer in the first place), and (b) also make it worth more to sell when it comes time to replace that. Not to mention a new warranty that means the cost to repair anything that goes wrong is zero, and a newer computer is less likely to break down meaning the cost of loss of usage is also less. The cost of downtime is not zero.

It's all well and good to want to upgrade the RAM in your Mac, but you people continually pushing this idea that Apple is greedy and insane because they don't let you do it any more (and trying to use arguments like the above to push that) ... that's what's ludicrous here.
Minimization of after-sales service expenses is one of the primary drivers behind Apple Silicon's design. It's really a two-birds-with-one-stone approach — they manage to drastically lower power consumption and boost performance on the one hand and avoid all RAM-related support costs on the other with SoC. It's not greedy or insane as much as practical. Macs just aren't the cash cow that they used to be, but their support costs are enormous compared to iPhones. You can always just go to an Apple Store and exchange a problematic iPhone for a new one and call it a day. You can rarely do that with an iMac or even a MacBook. Even if you can, you have to factor in shipping and handling and the much longer downtime.

So don't pretend Apple is entirely benevolent. There is a significant performance boost when power efficiency is more of a concern but there is also the economics and the cost-cutting.
 
I wonder about the IQ of people who can’t imagine the possibility that others have different needs, circumstances, and values.
Think different, right?

A consumer grade product is now worthy of the label 'Pro' just because Apple says so and you make excuses for Apple?

WHY?
 
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Is the ARM based mac a one-hit-wonder? M1 was a and is a smashing hit. Not much positive about M2.
They need to compete with 96 core AMD and to be with the big boys it need be able to run in multi sock
configurations.
 
Is the ARM based mac a one-hit-wonder? M1 was a and is a smashing hit. Not much positive about M2.
They need to compete with 96 core AMD and to be with the big boys it need be able to run in multi sock
configurations.
also need to keep up with
MAX RAM
PCI-E lanes
High end GPU configs
 
Is the ARM based mac a one-hit-wonder? M1 was a and is a smashing hit. Not much positive about M2.
They need to compete with 96 core AMD and to be with the big boys it need be able to run in multi sock
configurations.
Yes, the rules of reality indicate you can only do something that has never been done before once. :) Once Apple Silicon was done, that’s it, one hit, everything else is just iterations on that. They only need to compete against the most recently released Apple Silicon chips as there’s no other vendor making macOS computers. As long as the next MBAir is faster than the current MBAir, that’s 80-90 percent of their potential Mac customers right there. Anyone needing a 96 core x86 system won’t find anything to like about a a non-96 core, non-x86 system. Apple doesn’t do x86 anymore so Intel and AMD have that entire market to themselves.
 
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1.5TB of RAM is an anomaly for the Mac Pro, not the standard...

Look at all the previous gen Mac Pros on the OWC website...

1.1 = 32GB
3.1 = 64GB
4.1 = 128GB
5.1 = 128GB
6.1 = 128GB
7.1 = 1.5TB

So all Mac Pro users in the past managed with 128GB of RAM or less, but one machine in 2019 has a massive maximum RAM limit and now all Mac Pros going forward MUST have that same RAM limit or better...? GTFOOH...! ;^p

M2 Ultra with 192GB or (a theoretical) M2 Extreme with 384GB should be fine for 99.9% of all ASi Mac Pro users...

Now, if Apple switches the ASi Mac Pro to LPDDR5X SDRAM, then the maximum RAM for a Mn Extreme-powered Mac Pro could reach 1TB, but then there is the issue of no ECC...
 
1.5TB of RAM is an anomaly for the Mac Pro, not the standard...

Look at all the previous gen Mac Pros on the OWC website...

1.1 = 32GB
3.1 = 64GB
4.1 = 128GB
5.1 = 128GB
6.1 = 128GB
7.1 = 1.5TB

So all Mac Pro users in the past managed with 128GB of RAM or less, but one machine in 2019 has a massive maximum RAM limit and now all Mac Pros going forward MUST have that same RAM limit or better...? GTFOOH...! ;^p

M2 Ultra with 192GB or (a theoretical) M2 Extreme with 384GB should be fine for 99.9% of all ASi Mac Pro users...

Now, if Apple switches the ASi Mac Pro to LPDDR5X SDRAM, then the maximum RAM for a Mn Extreme-powered Mac Pro could reach 1TB, but then there is the issue of no ECC...
Tech moves on. The 5,1 is 13 years old, the 6,1 is 10 years old, and even the 7,1 is almost 4 years old. The workstations available in the same price range had a massive climb in max RAM and arent going back down. Apple may be ok with losing the folks that need gobs of RAM, but dont pretend that capability isnt part of that part of the market today in a way it wasnt a decade and change ago.
 
Apple may be ok with losing the folks that need gobs of RAM, but dont pretend that capability isnt part of that part of the market today in a way it wasnt a decade and change ago.
It’s definitely a part of the x86 market, of which Apple doesn’t compete in anymore. It remains to be seen if Apple Silicon will have such a feature.
 
Correct, but Apple specifically was only engaged in the x86 part of that market and have since ceased x86 progress.
Right, but they’re still theoretically targeting the mid/high end workstation end of things… where they’ll be the only ones not supporting gobs of memory if they only support up to 96gb
 
Right, but they’re still theoretically targeting the mid/high end workstation end of things… where they’ll be the only ones not supporting gobs of memory if they only support up to 96gb
Eh, they’ve been there before, they’ll be there again :)
 
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Right, but they’re still theoretically targeting the mid/high end workstation end of things… where they’ll be the only ones not supporting gobs of memory if they only support up to 96gb

M2 Ultra SoC should support up to 192GB of LPDDR5 SDRAM with 800GB/s of UMA bandwidth...
 
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M2 Ultra SoC should support up to 192GB of LPDDR5 SDRAM with 800GB/s of UMA bandwidth...
Fair enough, I was thinking about the MBP announcement yesterday and got 96gb stuck in my head I think. That’s still 1/7th of the memory a 7,1 supports though, which sits at 1.5TB, and substantially less than other workstations in its class in general.

Also wondering about ECC, we’ll see on that
 
Fair enough, I was thinking about the MBP announcement yesterday and got 96gb stuck in my head I think. That’s still 1/7th of the memory a 7,1 supports though, which sits at 1.5TB, and substantially less than other workstations in its class in general.

Also wondering about ECC, we’ll see on that

Considering that the Mac Pro itself serves a small subset of Mac users, and a Mac Pro with 1.5TB of RAM would serve an even smaller subset of users, 192GB for a M2 Ultra SoC seems pretty good...

Now, if Apple decides to introduce LPDDR5X SDRAM with the first-gen ASi Mac Pro, the theoretical maximum RAM (for a M2 Ultra SoC) would be 512GB, and a (theoretical) M2 Extreme could have a maximum of 1TB RAM (with 2.13TB/s UMA bandwidth)...

But as has been pointed out elsewhere in the forums, ECC would be a definite need when going into triple digit RAM amounts; Apple might be able to "get away" with not having ECC up to the 384GB limit, but beyond that (and especially if going up to 1TB of RAM) and Apple would definately need to source LPDDR5X chips with ECC...
 
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Why do people keep talking about "only able to afford a certain amount... but can afford more ..." later? A lot of businesses lease a computer, or get finance for it. You don't have to plant down X thousand dollars up front. If you can afford more over time then you can afford financing or leasing which spreads the cost out over time anyway. So this is not a good enough argument I'm afraid.
The only organisations I know that lease computers tend to be large companies. There are plenty of people and organisations that do wish to have the ability to expand their computer hardware as and when feasible/ needed. So, your argument does not stand up to scrutiny. Not in my knowledge.

You may wish for what you write because it suits you. You are a single person.
 
When you buy 200+ computers in bulk, you don’t also add on after market changes. When you need to offer IT support on thousands and thousands of computers, you have configurations for each department and sometimes rank of employee. You need a batch of these on hand. We can’t have any downtime. If someone’s computer dies, we swap it out and apply the Windows image drifts. 30 minutes back in business. Bad PC gets sent for warranty service.

After market upgrades causes drift, support nightmare, unicorn systems etc.

Where did I say I buy a new computer whenever I get “bored” with it? I explicitly posted I went up to 64GB of RAM for my studio since I want it to last 4-5 years. I don’t plan on a possibility of an upgrade 2 years from now.
I used to be one of those people who did expand computers as required. There are plenty of solutions. In most cases, it took more time to do the paperwork than to actually add RAM, new graphics card or whatever.
 
The only organisations I know that lease computers tend to be large companies. There are plenty of people and organisations that do wish to have the ability to expand their computer hardware as and when feasible/ needed. So, your argument does not stand up to scrutiny. Not in my knowledge.

You may wish for what you write because it suits you. You are a single person.
In sorry but that’s just plain incorrect.

Leasing is an option for both individuals and companies of any size. So is just getting a loan or any number of other options for spreading g the cost out. These options exist and are available to anyone without terrible credit.

Whether or not someone or some company avails themselves of these options is on them. But they exist.

To complain that you can’t afford the full cost up front when multiple options exists to spread the cost out is disingenuous at best.
 
But the whole concept of “Pro NEEDS to be upgradeable” needs to just stop.

There are benefits either way. One way allows the user some independence from the company, and flexibility. This probably reduces the amount of digital waste too.

The other way allows the company to control the release of improvements over time with the goal of delivering a highly optimized and integrated tool. Now that Apple can do whatever it wants (Trillion Dollar Company) it does that.
 
There are benefits either way. One way allows the user some independence from the company, and flexibility. This probably reduces the amount of digital waste too.

The other way allows the company to control the release of improvements over time with the goal of delivering a highly optimized and integrated tool. Now that Apple can do whatever it wants (Trillion Dollar Company) it does that.
You comment as if the issue is one of control, but it is not. The issue is advancing technology and the reality that frequently baked-in tech (e.g. Unified Memory Architecture) provides huge performance improvements that due to physics are simply not possible from any plug-in approach.

Note however that I do expect Apple to also at some point make slower modular solution(s) available in MPs.
 
You comment as if the issue is one of control, but it is not. The issue is advancing technology and the reality that frequently baked-in tech (e.g. Unified Memory Architecture) provides huge performance improvements that due to physics are simply not possible from any plug-in approach.
You can also combine tightly integrated components like unified memory and soldered SSD chips with slightly slower but much cheaper external memories and storage. Assuming the software is intelligent enough to efficiently use both, you can get the best of all worlds with performance and expandability. Ideally that's what the Mac Pro will be.
 
You can also combine tightly integrated components like unified memory and soldered SSD chips with slightly slower but much cheaper external memories and storage. Assuming the software is intelligent enough to efficiently use both, you can get the best of all worlds with performance and expandability. Ideally that's what the Mac Pro will be.
Agreed, that was what I meant by Note however that I do expect Apple to also at some point make slower modular solution(s) available in MPs. And although I said slower, in reality modular solutions are much, much slower. So the issue gets to be where design efforts/resources get placed. In my case for instance, 64-128 GB of superfast UMA-direct RAM is all I would want. But that is just me, others' MMV.
 
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