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One part of what you write is correct; i.e. max out a computer to what you are able to afford. Another side of what you write is downright incorrect. From a capital expenditure point of view huge amounts of cash may be saved by having upgradeable machines. Not everyone is a "one man band" organisation. Some are large businesses with lots of computers that would cost a fortune if replaced without carrying out upgrades first. IT department costs are cheap in comparison to purchasing brand new computers every-time they no longer met requirements.

As for smaller one man bands who are only able to afford a certain amount for a computer, but know that they can afford to upgrade over the life time of the computer, what makes them not "professional"? You stating it is so? I do not think so.

You are very spoilt if you get a new Mac every time you get bored with the current one. That is not how most businesses work.
When you buy 200+ computers in bulk, you don’t also add on after market changes. When you need to offer IT support on thousands and thousands of computers, you have configurations for each department and sometimes rank of employee. You need a batch of these on hand. We can’t have any downtime. If someone’s computer dies, we swap it out and apply the Windows image drifts. 30 minutes back in business. Bad PC gets sent for warranty service.

After market upgrades causes drift, support nightmare, unicorn systems etc.

Where did I say I buy a new computer whenever I get “bored” with it? I explicitly posted I went up to 64GB of RAM for my studio since I want it to last 4-5 years. I don’t plan on a possibility of an upgrade 2 years from now.
 
Should be an interesting machine. It definitely seems to be a stopgap because the fusion between 4 chips hasn't been working out or whatever. Working with a GPU was a question mark in my mind, so, if it's true that it can, that is good news. The RAM thing is fine for most, but looking back at some of those videos for the last Mac Pro will show a downgrade.
 
It is pretty apparent that they will use a more advanced UltraFusion to allow the user to add more RAMs by adding more SoCs. Mac Studio was a test run. The problems are:
  1. M1 Ultra doesn't run twice as fast as M1 Max. In some cases, only 40% faster. This could either be a fundamental limitation of UltraFusion technology or something that can be perfected. If the former, users are expected to see diminishing returns on each additional SoC upgrade.
  2. Adding an SoC is more expensive than just adding RAMs.
  3. You have to buy the SoC upgrade from Apple.
  4. Apple can 'obsolete' an SoC upgrade option after a model becomes vintage.
 
If the only advantage of this Mac Pro over the Mac Studio is being able to upgrade storage and graphics, for likely a few thousand dollar premium, this will be one of the most niche Mac Pros ever.
Upgrade storage or RAM with what, considering Apple's stuff is all soldered and not customizable once it's built. Same for graphics, unless Apple wants to manufacture their own add-on card of extra GPU cores, we won't be seeing Nividia/AMD add-on card in ARM Macs any time soon.
 
No one has seen what the new MP is or what pricing choices will be available. So none of us yet know what the best choices will be.

That said, the Studio rocks, so I too expect it to be a top choice for many.
In reality, most likely, the pricing will be for a niche market, as it has been in the past. But Apple could surprise us!
 
Mac Pro with soldered RAM... Really? Please give me a Mac :
- DRAM slots
- NVMe slots
- PCIe slots for graphics cards for AMD/Nvidia
Then, I won't complain anymore.
Why?

It’ll come with PCIe and with that you can add all the NVMe you want.

The rest? Defeats the purpose of everything the new Macs achieve.

If you want AMD/NVidia graphics then you need Intel processors. Sounds like you want a PC.

Bonus: you’ll save money on heating costs in winter.
 
I would guess it’s announced at WWDC in June, like the 2019 Mac Pro was. It’s running an unreleased OS now (with special secret features like GPU expansion maybe?) doesn’t mean it’ll launch when that OS update does.

if the rumor is correct and this is a coupled to macOS 13.3, then WWDC is dubious. By WWDC/June Apple should be on 13.4; not 13.3. 13.2 is in beta now and will probably be out before mid February (if not end of January ). x.3 will go into beta on about a 2-3 cycle would be at latest May (if not April or March (if .2 makes by end of January).

macOS 13 has defects in it. It has announced features that haven't shipped yet. It extremely likely has security problems too. So squatting on 13.3 all the way to June just doesn't make much sense. Apple needs to get to x.4 before WWDC, because after macOS 14 goes beta, it is going to suck the vast majority of remaining resource allocation out of 13. (if xrOS is sucking resources out of iOS then even more so).


If you want to throw the rumor out the window that it has any coupling to 10.3 at all. Then sure.


There is much upsides for Apple to drag it out until WWDC 2023. That only makes them busting their "about 2 years" announcement at WWDC 2020 look all the more worse because it will be exactly one year overdue. Which would make their roadmap pronouncement skills look like 'junk' ... which will not win them a 'bonus' price in the market the Mac Pro sell into. When Apple has a solid timeline on when they can ship in some reasonable amount of volume, they should "sneak peak" the system. Not waiting around from some technically arbitrary date that has nothing to do with the production schedule.

Last March it was "Mac Pro later " . A year after that March is getting a bit past 'later'.

The longer Apple waits, the bigger hole they dig themselves. Apple has already 'stepped in poo' twice (2022 end ed with no finished transition and if blow past March 'later' has got some smell on it too. )


13.3 may only have a feature that makes some aspect of the new Mac Pro obvious. The completely system may not ship at the same time. 13.3 in April/May and no hardware orders until June/July. That could happen. For example, if Apple winked in 3rd party GPU eGPU support for the rest of the M-series line up , then there would be no point in hiding that aspect of the Mac Pro anymore even if the system could not ship in the Spring. Not saying Apple is extremely likely to do that , but illustrative of a coupled feature with other Macs that would diminish a later "surprise" introduction.


Unless maybe there is an earlier announcement of the AR glasses, maybe they’re announced together. Not holding my breath for that one though.

The AR/VR goggles are in almost the opposite 'boat'. Apple did not pre-announce a deadline for those to ship. If the software is 'broken' , the upsides to shipping early are low. ( If pulling resources away from iOS to cover xrOS then 'broken' is a decent adjective). Some tidbits are leaking out through Apple device manager and other pieces of very lightly coupled software means they can't 'sit' on it forever , but it is only 'late' for rabid macrumors fans and tech press fans.

If there are a substantial amount of rxOS and API specifics that will need to be covered at WWDC 2023 , there is a ton of upsides in pre-announcing the new OS before the schedule for WWDC has be released. That way folks can plan their time/interests accordingly. Trying to land that product exactly on top of WWDC doesn't make much sense either. Either it is ready to be taught at WWDC or it is not. If not ready to be taught that whole thing should be shifted to after.
 
And for the love of all that is holy, include a stand this time. There's no reason the stand should be a separate line item.
No thanks. They’re not going to throw in a stand for free (and why should they?) And I don’t want to pay for a stand that I just leave in the box when I mount it on my VESA arm. Giving us the ability to choose the stand (or not) independently at whatever price point and need we want is much better.
 
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Is it not just DDR4 RAM? Why wouldn't the SOC be able to access it just becuase it's on a DIMM instead of soldered to the board?
I’m sure it can but it defeats the point of a large part of what makes ASi so much faster and more efficient.
 
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I think it will announce in WWDC too. I however got a lot of heat in the past stating Apple doesn’t announce this kind of stuff at WWDC. I don’t agree but you might get the same responses :(

in the past ( 2013 and 2019) Apple didn't ship the Mac Pro for 6 months after the announcement. The folks saying Apple is going to repeat the past ... if so then Apple isn't going to ship until Nov-Dec 23. Which if they want to get whipped back in the workstation, I'm hard pressed to think of a worse date this year.

By Q4 AMD would have dropped Threadripper 7000's and Intel would be in volume with W-3400 . Reportedly all ready missing the boat on the quad chiplet set up ( CPU count and GPU core count ).

If Apple does April then October would be a target date if repeating all of the past. Still would be bad timing , but waiting until later in the year is only a deeper hole for them. If they need macOS 14 to ship something that is production quality set up ... then that is what they are stuck with.

If the hardware and OS are fully ready in April, then squatting on it for two more months helps them how?????? They are already late ( 'about two years' ---- blown . 'Mac Pro later ' , by this March , blown. ). "We finished exactly a whole year late" helps Apple's "nimble product management" reputation how? It doesn't.


If Apple is wafer constrained it would make more sense to put the Mac Pro up in front of MBP 14"/16" because at least those systems have completed the transition.
 
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Actually, you put a whole lot of words/concepts in my mouth that I did NOT say. Let's try again...

There are a number of people in this very thread hoping for a Mac Pro with the flexibility to expand memory beyond Silicon RAM limits.
I'm not refuting that. And Apple would agree as well. They went from a "trash can" mac pro to a tower design specifically because they have users that need to be able to expand.
So I offered up the concept of a hypothetical Mac Pro with THREE tiers of RAM:

  1. Tier 1: (as is) Silicon RAM, the fastest for the Mac
  2. Tier 2: the new concept: the flexility to add traditional RAM too for those wanting or needing more RAM. Yes, it will not be as fast as Silicon RAM but it should be much faster than SWAPS (as is) with SSD storage
  3. Tier 3: (as is) faux RAM via swaps in and out of SSD storage.
Remember what Apple likes to do. They simplify. You're going to get Mac Studio and Mac Pro. Studio is the tier 1 and Mac Pro will be your version of 2-3. With the option being to add as much RAM as the system can hold, and sold with 8-16GB built in. Storage, 512GB to 8TB. And maybe a flavor of AMD GPU's and Apples accelerator cards. Plus whatever 3rd party I/O PCI-e Gen 5 etc for other audio/video/networking/etc.
I have to believe that the new tier 2 would be much faster than tier 3 "as is" for those situations where the demand for RAM exceeds Silicon supply. If Silicon needs all RAM processing to happen in Silicon RAM, then this tier 2 RAM becomes much faster swaps. On the other hand, if Mac Pro Silicon can accommodate a Grand Central-like manager in macOS to allocate by RAM speed need or just big demand vs. smaller demand, then maybe macOS can intelligently decide when to use Tier 1 vs. Tier 2.
Again, you're asking Apple to make something more akin to intel or AMD as a mid ground (i7-9 intel or Ryzen ). They most likely will just go with AS as is, and then maybe an M/x chip more like a Xeon or Epyc.
Mac Pro has always been the flexible, evolve-able Mac.
Yes, but using "workstation" level CPU's (intel Xeon) and GPU's (Fire Pro or Quadro's).
Locking it down like the rest of them is moving away from what a Mac Pro- sans trashcan- has been.
Yes, that is right. But, they will most likely still stick with a Xeon-es type M chip. And DARE AMD to build a better GPU that could compete with a AS based GPU accelerator card. That can do full encode/decode of 32 Streams of 16k video and with up to 128GB of RAM. That only needs 50 Watts of power! Just making that up :)
My Mac Studio Ultra already has an empty slot for another Apple-only SSD if Apple would sell one and adapt macOS to be able to use it.
It's not empty for the reasons you think.
If Mac Pro is basically Mac Studio with maybe a few Apple-proprietary SSD slots, I don't see that as Mac Pro... unless we think Trashcan with just a wee bit more flexibility.
They shouldn't go back down the trash can route. I think they learned their lesson and did so by making a Mac Studio and will make a normal Mac Pro as mentioned above.
My post was simply "think different" imagining a way for a Mac Pro to not be a Studio +... giving the crowd happy with Apple lockdown what they want as well as those who want traditional Mac Pro flexility for cards, storage and much more RAM inside.
Apple does a lot of research into what their customers do with the macs they buy. So they are pretty confident most don't update RAM. Or storage. They find it easier to just buy external storage, and provide fast I/O to make it as easy and fast as possible. Which is why they go thinner and lighter. Cause most of their customers want it. Trade off being battery life. So they made it a bit thicker, bumped up the battery. Gave it a SOC that sips power. And all the I/O ports you can ask for. End results, happy customers on the mobile side.

Desktops are to similar. Not many upgrade their ram. Upgrading CPU's on a Mac, even with intel hasn't been really a "thing". Storage, sure but again external I/O is pretty fast. It will be nice to have a choice in GPU's again!
 


Apple is testing a new version of the Mac Pro running macOS 13.3, according to a tweet shared by Bloomberg's Mark Gurman today.

Mac-Pro-Feature-Teal.jpg

Given that macOS 12.3 was released in March 2022 and macOS 11.3 was released in April 2021, it's likely that macOS 13.3 will be released in the spring as well. This timeframe could set the stage for Apple to introduce the Mac Pro at a spring event, shortly before releasing macOS 13.3 with support for the computer. The new Mac Pro is expected to feature Apple's new M2 Ultra chip, but a higher-end "M2 Extreme" chip was reportedly canceled.

Earlier this week, Gurman said the new Mac Pro will have the same design as the 2019 model, but lack user-upgradeable RAM.

In an October edition of his newsletter, Gurman said the long-awaited 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro models with M2 Pro and M2 Max chips would also be tied to macOS 13.3, suggesting that the notebooks could be announced this spring as well.

Gurman has previously claimed that a new Mac mini is in the works with M2 and M2 Pro chip options, but he hasn't commented on the Mac mini recently. It's certainly possible that it gets announced alongside the new Mac Pro and MacBook Pro models. In the meantime, Apple continues to sell Intel-based Mac Pro and Mac mini configurations.

Apple has not released any new Macs since the MacBook Air with the M2 chip in July.

Article Link: New Mac Pro With M2 Ultra Chip Might Launch This Spring Alongside macOS 13.3
No sane person would buy a computer like this where you can’t even upgrade the ram. In fact I wouldn’t buy any computer where I can’t upgrade the ram. It’s ridiculous. Why not just get an iPad?
 
I genuinely do not understand keeping the same form factor if they also aren't planning some form of GPU support alongside it. Why have all that extra expansion ability for PCIe otherwise?

As much as I love my M1 Max Laptop, I'd love to be able to use my eGPU with it for some added power doing noise reduction in Resolve.

Maybe they're planning PCIe add in video cards with their own GPU design but even that doesn't make sense given the efficiencies of tying them in with the unified memory and having them on-chip with the CPUs.
 
Maybe they're planning PCIe add in video cards with their own GPU design but even that doesn't make sense given the efficiencies of tying them in with the unified memory and having them on-chip with the CPUs.
Yeah, an AppleGPU over PCIe would be a huge step back. PCIe can’t handle the two way bandwidth Apple GPUs currently require.
 
That is quite easily the most comical comment on this thread. The sarcasm is pretty funny too. I’ve been a video and design pro for 37 years using macs and I always upgrade stuff and when allowed, get inside the damn machine. THAT is what pros do. So skills, experience, abilities, etc don’t make a pro…but not opening a computer up does. Ok then.
Take easy man, I gotta admit it's pretty ridiculous, but with the way things are now, all cutting-edge and forward-thinking, I gotta say a real pro never messes with the box, don't even upgrade the RAM. Stick to that, you're good to go as a legit professional, good luck.
 
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I genuinely do not understand keeping the same form factor if they also aren't planning some form of GPU support alongside it. Why have all that extra expansion ability for PCIe otherwise?

1. It is cheaper.

Intel Mini -- M1 Mini exact same case. ( even though M1 mini logic board takes up about 1/2 the space)
Intel MBA -- M1 MBA exact same case.
Intel MBP 13" --- M1 and M2 exact same case .

R&D dollars spent on the chassis for the transitions system. $0.0

If Apple intends to keep selling the 2019 Mac Pro along side the Apple Silicon version for 12-14 months. It is much , much cheaper to just let both products just share a completely 'paid for' case. More volume (economies of scale). etc. That makes the margins higher for both and Apple getting to fill the Scrooge McDuck money pit even deeper.


Even If Apple chopped the number of PCI-e slots from 8 to 5 (or 6) it still would probably be a cheaper path just to reuse the exact same container ( and just leave three or two 'extra' slot fillers on the chassis with no real slot behind them. )


2. If Apple dropped the M2 quad-chiplet version ("Extreme") they are even less able to drop the 2019 Model. Even if they had planned to decommission it at the end of 2023, they are probably going to limp along with it longer now.

Lower priced W6000 series MPX cards or the wished for by some folks a AMD 7900 upgrade card ( doubtful it would be MPX. But something with an official Apple stamp of approval on it. ) would help the old MP 2019 infrastructure limp along into 2024 not looking quite as bad. ( as peak crypto mania pricing on GPUs and years old hardware at PCI-e v3).


3. They don't have to do GPU support for macOS. The two major virtual machine software packages that sit on top of their hypervisor framework have a virtual UEFI environment. Those hosted operating systems could use the GPU. Apple's virtualization framework that is mainly aimed at Linux ... same thing. Could host some AI/ML training workloads that run better in Linux anyway.

For example, there are folks with one or two Nvidia card stuffed into current MP 2019 systems. Do those cards work in macOS? No!. Do those folks BootCamp over to Windows to get work down durning part of their day? Yes.

Add an IOMMU pass through to the VM framework so that card is only assigned to the virtual machine and let it initialize and drive the GPU card that macOS doesn't want to work with. There wouldn't even be much performance overhead at all.

These also don't have to be 'display' GPU cards either. What Apple is deeply missing with "Extreme" model is peak TFLOPs. They need compute more than they need something to drive a monitor with. A 'compute only' GPGPU card would work. An AMD MI210 would work and it has no video out. It isn't a 'dirt cheap' retail card that end users can buy at Newegg/Microcenter/discount retail vendor du-jour. But it would add 10's of TFLOP processing to the system.



4. Having one , and only one, internal storage drive in a workstation is not tractable. Apple even admitted that back in April 2017 as one of the 'didn't work out so well' factors of the Mac Pro 2013. Leaning too hard on Thunderbolt doesn't work . Minimally if want to have 3-5 internal SSDs, then you need some general purpose slots. (e.g, a four x4 M.2 SSD carrier card. Apple overtly showed a picture of one at the Mac Pro 2019 introduction. ).

There are currently over 50 PCI-e cards that currently work with M-series systems via Thunderbolt enclosures. All of those would work in a new Mac Pro with slots. So the question more so is why would Apple walk away from all of that investment that has already been put in? That! would actually be the bigger head scratcher.
There is a subset of those cards that a x16 and x8 PCI-e v3/4 now that do work quite suboptimally in Thunderbolt expansion boxes now. Again it is the "lean to hard on Thunderbolt' problem that Apple has already admitted to.

Two 10GbE network sockets may not be enough. 8K video capture... not really conducive to Thunderbolt. etc. etc.

There can be other accelerators that take more than just the 75W bus power cap to provide a performance boost.



As much as I love my M1 Max Laptop, I'd love to be able to use my eGPU with it for some added power doing noise reduction in Resolve.

again some more 'compute' GPGPU addition might be more likely than a full 'display and compute' driver update.



Maybe they're planning PCIe add in video cards with their own GPU design but even that doesn't make sense given the efficiencies of tying them in with the unified memory and having them on-chip with the CPUs.

All the implicit assumptions in the apps highly tuned to Apple silicon presume unified memory. Add in cards that bust unified memory would not work any more smoothy than 3rd party ones did. If going to put in extra work for display GPU support ... a GPU 'off the shelf' from a 3rd party probably works just as well.

And if the M2 "extreme" got cancelled because low volume buys.... the Apple GPU would largely be in the exact same boat. Apple isn't going to sell it into the Windows market. So the number of potential buyers is relatively small.
Folks can try to tap dance and say that the "Extreme" was too big ... what difference is a relatively small Apple GPU going to bring to the more compute horsepower story? If just as small (or smaller ) as the Max GPU is it any better than an Ultra ? No. It isn't going to be some 4070-4090 'killer'.

Intel took their over decade experience of making an iGPU and rolled out a discrete GPU drivers that were up to their eyeballs in problems. There is no indications that Apple would be immune from that kind of problem. And probably not seeking it either.


Apple's who GPU architecture and software is deeply assumes being able to do a substantively large amount of very localized internal package network passing of data.
 
I think it will announce in WWDC too. I however got a lot of heat in the past stating Apple doesn’t announce this kind of stuff at WWDC. I don’t agree but you might get the same responses :(
Supporting your comment the first Intel Mac Pros were announced at WWDC
 
3. They don't have to do GPU support for macOS. The two major virtual machine software packages that sit on top of their hypervisor framework have a virtual UEFI environment. Those hosted operating systems could use the GPU. Apple's virtualization framework that is mainly aimed at Linux ... same thing. Could host some AI/ML training workloads that run better in Linux anyway.
VMware dropped experimental IOMMU passthrough on desktop apps a while ago and Parallels has never supported it, and I don't believe MacOS allows for that abstraction at all right now, so while I agree that would be awesome I don't really expect it
 
LPDDR has been giving them and everyone else that excuse for far longer.
Good point, I should have been more specific. I thus updated my post to say:

"I.e., UMA gives Apple a technological excuse to extend, to their desktops (whose Intel versions all had upgradeable RAM), a restriction they've previously only had in place only for laptops, and thus profit accordingly."
 
M1 Ultra doesn't run twice as fast as M1 Max. In some cases, only 40% faster. This could either be a fundamental limitation of UltraFusion technology or something that can be perfected. If the former, users are expected to see diminishing returns on each additional SoC upgrade.
Seems that the M1 Max -> M1 Ultra scales just fine.
 
Let’s not argue over who is or is not a pro based on whether they upgrade their machines or not. Both sides are right. Many firms, especially in VFx etc, are using server farms and Linux, while other firms just buy well specified machines and upgrade the whole thing as needed, as and when a production or process requires it. Some firms will upgrade their machines sometimes. And a whole TON of pro users who are independents or in small shops who do upgrade their machines or, as Apple users, are frustrated that they cannot.

As Gruber often says, in Apple branding terms, ”Pro” means “nicer”.

For me the bigger question is whether there is enough use case for a high end and upgradeable machine. the MX model is optimised for performance per watt. It works extremely well for many use cases. MX has not yet attempted to optimise for performance with near unlimited watt-power. It is arguable that the high end Mac Studio - barnstormer that it is - is actually handicapped with limited power consumption, so that its fans don’t go mad.

This would be fine if the Mac Studio could do anything that a PC, or even the existing Mac Pro can, but it cannot. As Siracusa has pointed out, his Mac Pro can outpace a max-spec Mac Studio in graphics performance because you can just chuck additional AMD graphics cards into it. Even though they and the overall architecture is less efficient, they can reach higher levels of absolute compute performance. The Xeon CPU is not, IIRC, as fast as the Ultra.

So there is a gap, and an inconsistency, at the top of the line up. In my dreams, Apple will tick all the following boxes, but we’ll have to see if they tick any:

  1. reuse existing, marvellous case for great cooling - I think this is almost certain
  2. new MX chip with vastly increased CPU and GPU - again, almost certain.
  3. storage / ssd slots - of course
  4. PCIe slots for audio cards etc - likely, I don’t think that breaks the ASI model but I could be wrong
  5. new API so that MX / ASI can use existing AMD graphics cards - a big change, not at all certain, but conceivable. Might open up eGPUs but not certain. This would address a big deficiency of the Mac Stuido, but probably won’t satisfy everyone on this thread. I think NVidia support is a “hell freezes over” option. A shame.
Which still leaves the thorny question of RAM, which is what this whole thread is about. We want the RAm number to go from 128 (Mac studio maximum) to 1024+ (the intel Mac Pro maximum). But under ASI, does this mean anything? If you can use the whole SSd as slow memory you can have up to 8TB of “memory”, and probably a minimum of 1TB. I’d be interested if someone more technical than me could lay out in what circumstances the slowness of SSds is really a bottleneck.

Now, as pointed out upthread, there have been leaks of technical solutions where the ASI bus can be made extendable to address external memory, not as fast as on die memory but faster than SSD. This is effectively the RAM disk technology also mentioned upthread.

Apple would probably prefer to have one lump of memory and core storage from the start. Introducing a complicated new technology that’s Mac Pro only to extend the RAM disk is probably not attractive, but potentially an option. If they want to avoid this, they will have to explain exactly how 128 or 256gb of “real” RAM plus 8TB of very fast swap (and tons more storage) is going to have all the headroom you need. Which of course, it will, for 99% of users.

But the Mac Pro is for the other 1%.

I think we’ll wind up with expandable graphics, internal storage, great cooling, and, possibly, upgradable logic boards. But no RAm expansion.
 
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