New PowerMac Model?

[spankalee]

Why not??
Even a newly designed all-in-one g5 imac would bring stiff competition to the current line of powermac g5s (just think ibook/powerbook sales). Currently the 17" imac runs at around $1794… With a new form factor that includes minor room for expansion, a 17" g5 imac would realistically be priced around $2100 (I would think it would not be much more).

The idea of a headless imac was only to satisfy those who want to see one, but the reason we do not have one now is because we have the Power Mac. Nix the Power Mac and produce two smaller more compact desktops. Keep costs down and make more money.

Couple things about your post.

First, iMac prices are will be going down not up. Apple noted that the iMac is too far away from the pricing sweet spot for consumer machines and I expect them to try to correct this. The iMac is also underpowered by today's standards. Just because it gets a G5 doesn't mean the price will be higher. By many accounts G5s are cheaper than G4s. The reason G4s are used at all any more is because they run much cooler.

Also, forget about the iMac getting room for internal expansion; it ain't gonna happen so you might as well stop dreaming. The iMac is the heir to the original Macintosh and it will always be the simple, nearly-sealed machine that it is. Internal expansion isn't even necessary these days. The only thing I could possibly see happen at all is that nVidia and ATi get off their asses and finally create a standard graphics module for notebooks and Apple uses that in the iMac for upgradable graphics, but that's a pipe dream too.

There's really no way to tell whether this PowerMac8,1 is a PowerMac or an iMac. Recently consumer machines have been odd numbered, but that could just be the timing of the updates; they usually don't happen at the same time, but both the PM and iMac are due for major revisions right now.

 

[bar italia]

I think that Steve's keynote go something like this: Steve will come the stage wearing some jeans, with a black pole-neck that secretly has a board of circuit within it. He will walk through the stage, to traverse to a table with an object on it, which has a covered black cloth cover it. Before he gets there, he slides in something and strikes his head in the table, striking out a tooth. After crouching doubled over in the pain for some moments, he will be stand up and will throw off the cloth of the object... that reveals it to be new iMac.

The rock music will begin to play, and Steve visibly will be angered. In iMac's the screen will be a G5 logo of a certain class, playing in the Motion. Steve will stop the partial version of program that plays, while spit blood in his pocket. The Spinning Wheel of Death will appear, making Steve still more angered. He will open the side of iMac, and watches fixedly inside, silently. Then he will close it up, and he feels down in front of him. After striking the mouse around the SWoD still it will rotate, and Steve will loosen to its genius, entering a catatonic fury.

To this point, an assistant will emter to the Tiger of the partial version of program. The horrible music of Emo will begin to play. Steve will be stopped behind the assistant, breathing noisy and heavy. The nervous assistant will give his speech with a voice that shakes, his speech broken by fearful swalloning. Steve will appear utterly disinterested in the partial version of program. The assistant will accidentally spill the water of Steve's on the keyboard of iMac, sending panic of the nucleus of the Tiger. Steve will strike the chair with the foot towards outside underneath the assistant, and it strikes it with the foot in the posteriora part, and pushes iMac of the writing-desk with a wild sweeping of his hairy arms. Steve will finish the tonic note staring maniacally out towards the crowd, eyes that burn with vehemance, showing his toothless mouth now, dripping with saliva and blood. The curtains will draw.

Apologies for my English, I am Spaniard

It's cute that you thought you were being clever.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Is there anyway to integrate the two lines… Prosumer.
Offer one machine with different variations (single, dual, headless, with monitor) that would satisfy everyone. I hate to say it, but look at the PC manufacturers, they offer one machine (or exoskeleton) and provide different configurations. Why shouldn't apple adopt this stance but with apple quality. It would lower the amount spent (both time and money) maintaining the two current lines.

Apple pretty much does this today. They base their designs on UMA. Unified Motherboard Architecture. This basically means the core layout is the same and Apple simply plugins in/enables certian features.

Thus the iMac/emac shares lineage with the Powerbooks. There was once a time when each Mac line had it's own Motherboard architecture with custom asics. That was too costly and a logistical nightmare.

This new iMac will most like use the UMA G5 so I expect the base to be a bit bigger. PCs are no different. Intel or AMD sells a chipset with a set of features in the North and South bridges and Manufacturers can decide which mix of features they think will hit a sweet spot. Economies of scale then should take over.

Headless Macs at the low end won't happen because Apple know the impetus for Headless Macs is so that people can buy a cheaper monitor. Can they makeup the additional revenue of the built in Monitors if they go Headless. That answer is unclear but it's unlikely.

 

[nek]

Wait, wait and wait

PowerMac7,2 = PowerMac G5.
PowerMac7,3 = ? Probably revB of PowerMac G5.
RackMac3,1 = Xserve.
PowerMac8,1 = new product.

<key>PowerMac8,1</key>
<string>SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin</string>

Neo was the codename of PPC970, so Neo2 could be the 970fx? Anyway PowerMac 8,1 probably is the new iMac G5, in fact all the latest iMac have an even revision number (PowerMac 4.x, PowerMac 6.x...).

I think you are right. The PowerMac7,3 is just a faster Powermac G5 and the PowerMac8,1 is a brand new iMac G5. Although I don't know how to read the file properly, the following seems to indicate very little change in the Powermac:

<key>PowerMac7,2</key>
<string>PowerMac7_2_PlatformPlugin</string>
<key>PowerMac7,3</key>
<string>PowerMac7_2_PlatformPlugin</string>
<key>PowerMac8,1</key>
<string>SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin</string>

And for those hoping that AppleMacRISC4PE means a 4 processor Powermac, thats not going to happen. If you look at AppleMacRISC2PE, it mentions MacRISC2 and MacRISC3, and the UniNorth motherboard. AppleMacRISC4PE mentions MacRISC4, and its motherboard seems to be called AppleU3.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the new Powermac couldn't be much faster and have a few other changes that require a special new version of OSX 10.3.x.

 

[shawnce]

I didn't say that was the logic behind previous models. you were quick to speculate I did. believe me that I did see the 3,3 and 7,2 and 7,5. other than that - believe what you want to believe.

Apple's number scheme hasn't worked that way in the past and it is unlikely that it is changed to work the way as you implied (it is 7,3 by the way no 7,5 exists yet out in any open update).

Now Apple may switch to a single CPU package with dual or quad cores in the future. So your internal source may be saying one CPU but it could be a dual (or quad) core package, effectively a dual CPU with very fast interconnect between them.

I personally would be surprised if those are shippable in the next 6 months to a year unless Apple ups the pricing on things. We shall see what pops out at WWDC.

 

[dongmin]

This is not a speculation but an info I got from an inside source at Apple.
8 is indeed 975 and the ',1' means that it's a single processor as ALL the REV B machines are going to be. the cpu clockspeeds are going to be higher than expected (yes. higher than 3.0GHZ). from what I heard, there are talks about a low end 2.4 machine, mid 2.8 machine and high end 3.2 machine. all with dual layer dvd burners (from sony) and PCI express.

No way will Apple drop duals on the high end. Apple has been selling the Gospel of the Dual forever. Going from dual 2.0 to only single 3.2 would appear as a step backwards for many people, including myself. At best, it's a move sideways. Many pro apps that take advantage of the second processor (at more than 60%) will take a performance hit with this upgrade. Boooo. This would be acceptable only if Apple dropped the price on the high end to $2500 AND if the cumulative architectural changes of the new processor results in a higher per clock performance. A dual 3.0 option should be available as BTO.

 

[SpamJunkie]

The only thing I could possibly see happen at all is that nVidia and ATi get off their asses and finally create a standard graphics module for notebooks and Apple uses that in the iMac for upgradable graphics, but that's a pipe dream too.

Which upgradeable laptop graphics standard is a pipe dream, MXM announced last week or Axiom announced today?

 

[thogs_cave]

Let's get the facts straight.

that is the law of diminishing returns - duals will NEVER add a 100% boost compared to a single cpu (of same speed). that is as impossible as travelling faster than the speed of light. there is always a performance hit when more than one cpu is used simultaneously.

if dual gives a 50% boost, one could assume that the third cpu would add about 33% to it and the fourth some 25%, so in the end, the quad shoud show a +150% speed boost compared to single cpu (of the same speed) in real life.

Um, not to burst your bubble JFreak, but that doesn't hold true at all. I work with SMP systems, and have for 10 years now. Depending on the system design you can actually reach a point (depending on the system design and cache) where the speedup goes superlinear. Sun's E10000 (up to 64 CPU's) would reach that point, and other systems do as well. Certainly the second CPU in even a modest MP box adds more than 50%.

A good deal of the boost is lost in single-threaded code. However, the advent of multicore CPU's (even Intel has finally jumped on that bandwagon), as well as a lot of SMP systems out there in the past decade or so has led to code being much better threaded. OS X (for a young OS) does amazingly well in this arena, and the results on a dual-CPU G5 are excellent.

Given that Intel, the overall leader in inefficient high-frequency CPUs, has thrown in the towel due to heat issues (among other things), you will see even more SMP and multicore designs in short order. It would not surprise me at all if IBM releases a multicore G5 or G6. After all, the POWER line has worked that way for some time.

 

[pjkelnhofer]

No way will Apple drop duals on the high end. Apple has been selling the Gospel of the Dual forever. Going from dual 2.0 to only single 3.2 would appear as a step backwards for many people, including myself. At best, it's a move sideways. Many pro apps that take advantage of the second processor (at more than 60%) will take a performance hit with this upgrade. Boooo. This would be acceptable only if Apple dropped the price on the high end to $2500 AND if the cumulative architectural changes of the new processor results in a higher per clock performance. A dual 3.0 option should be available as BTO.

I think you are right, it doesn't make sense to go from dual to single all the way down the line. I never believe it when a "newbie" suddenly appears with so called inside information.

 

[silvergunuk]

I'm expecting new G5 imacs that come in different colours (perhaps to match ipod minis). The rest god knows.

 

[spankalee]

Which upgradeable laptop graphics standard is a pipe dream, MXM announced last week or Axiom announced today?

That's the point. Neither one is a standard, they are two separate specifications that are not compatible. The pip-dream referred to nVidia and ATi agreeing on one spec.

I guess it's possible that Apple wouldn't mind, and think that limited upgradability is better than none, but I'd much rather see a real standard.

 

[LaMerVipere]

Do we have any info on the stock of iMacs that resellers have?

Because the est. ship date for an iMac is next day, as opposed to power macs which have a 4-6 week est. ship date

Is this really a good way to gauge whether or not a major new product is around the corner? (ie: iMac G5)

 

[Freg3000]

8. Steve Jobs will apologize...

STOP!

Did you just say what I think you just said???

Either there will be 3Ghz Power Macs, or Steve won't say a word about missing the mark.

 

[leo]

Processors creep forward on a defined timeline.

As we have seen with Motorola...
Just kidding, I too think IBM is different. But the mere fact that they are constantly developing new processor designs doesn't mean they can deliver Apple-sized quantities with high clock speeds on time. And I think this can and does cause a delay.

Apple has stated that there was an issue with fabbing some G5s. IBM doesn't fab everything on the same line so problems in one area don't necessarily affect others.

As far as I understand it, it wasn't a problem with one single fab line, but an issue with the process. I'm still not convinced that they have those 3 GHz chips ready for shipping this summer.

Then explain to me this : page 2
http://www.fz-juelich.de/zam/files/docs/vortraege/ibm-nutzung/hh_pwr4_arch.2up.pdf

This is new, substantial information for me, thank you. I stand corrected.
There is a PowerPC 975. Watch out, folks!

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Do we have any info on the stock of iMacs that resellers have?

Because the est. ship date for an iMac is next day, as opposed to power macs which have a 4-6 week est. ship date

Is this really a good way to gauge whether or not a major new product is around the corner? (ie: iMac G5)

In the past, this has not been a good way to judge major new products. When the iBook went to G4 last fall, no one had been reporting long ship dates on the old iBooks. Anything that Apple has left when the updates come will be simply sold in the "Refurb" section of Applestore.com.

 

[tortoise]

Depending on the system design you can actually reach a point (depending on the system design and cache) where the speedup goes superlinear. Sun's E10000 (up to 64 CPU's) would reach that point, and other systems do as well.

That is a fantastically disingenuous argument. First, the number of codes that show superlinear performance increases on ANY system are microscopic to the point of being curiosities. Second, the PPC architecture is nigh pathological as such things go for trying to extract superlinear performance. Third, the current PPC architecture is very poorly suited for scalable SMP in general. In short, the PPC as currently designed cannot be economically scaled beyond two processors as the return falls off very fast for most applications. The lack of SMP scalability in PPC isn't a minor design decision, and adding it would require some wholesale redesign of the current chipsets that it isn't clear that either IBM or Apple is willing to do.

If you want scalable SMP then you want the Opteron, which uses an architecture that is similar to the E10k you mention and an interconnect that is actually superior to the E10k interconnect in many ways. The PPC is currently a pretty modest implementation of vanilla PC-like SMP, and scales a little worse in the general case.

So unless Apple starts producing PPCs with a scalable interconnect and a brand new memory subsystem, it will be nothing more than a glorified single processor machine. The Opteron can do it because it was built for it, with a multiprocessor fabric that would be at home in Unix Big Iron.

 

[spankalee]

Third, the current PPC architecture is very poorly suited for scalable SMP in general.

So why is IBM's Blue Gene based on the PPC 440? Is it really the PPC that's not SMP friendly, or the chipset?

 

[aswitcher]

I do hope this does turn out the be the G5 iMac with some cool new design and performance advances at a decent price.

 

[LeeTom]

My predictions for WWDC

My predictions for WWDC...

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/73884/

Lee Tom

 

[mklos]

IMO, this can only mean two things:

Apple planned to release a new PM revision sometime between March and May (the release dates of 10.3.3 and 10.3.4, respectively), but had to change that plan for whatever reason, probably IBM's yield problems.

OR

10.3.4 was released sooner than originally planned which is less likely to be the reason than the first possibility

OR

It will be the OS release that ships with the new PowerMacs or iMac G5's when ever they ship.

 

[NNO-Stephen]

OR

It will be the OS release that ships with the new PowerMacs or iMac G5's when ever they ship.

which I've thought this since it took so long for them to beta test it and squash as many bugs as possible. this update got quite a bit of beta testing compared to most of the other updates and I believe this will be the OS that ships with any new hardware Apple announces.

 

[fluidinclusion]

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

I think that Steve's keynote go something like this: Steve will come the stage wearing some jeans, with a black pole-neck that secretly has a board of circuit within it. He will walk through the stage, to traverse to a table with an object on it, which has a covered black cloth cover it. Before he gets there, he slides in something and strikes his head in the table, striking out a tooth. After crouching doubled over in the pain for some moments, he will be stand up and will throw off the cloth of the object... that reveals it to be new iMac.

The rock music will begin to play, and Steve visibly will be angered. In iMac's the screen will be a G5 logo of a certain class, playing in the Motion. Steve will stop the partial version of program that plays, while spit blood in his pocket. The Spinning Wheel of Death will appear, making Steve still more angered. He will open the side of iMac, and watches fixedly inside, silently. Then he will close it up, and he feels down in front of him. After striking the mouse around the SWoD still it will rotate, and Steve will loosen to its genius, entering a catatonic fury.

To this point, an assistant will emter to the Tiger of the partial version of program. The horrible music of Emo will begin to play. Steve will be stopped behind the assistant, breathing noisy and heavy. The nervous assistant will give his speech with a voice that shakes, his speech broken by fearful swalloning. Steve will appear utterly disinterested in the partial version of program. The assistant will accidentally spill the water of Steve's on the keyboard of iMac, sending panic of the nucleus of the Tiger. Steve will strike the chair with the foot towards outside underneath the assistant, and it strikes it with the foot in the posteriora part, and pushes iMac of the writing-desk with a wild sweeping of his hairy arms. Steve will finish the tonic note staring maniacally out towards the crowd, eyes that burn with vehemance, showing his toothless mouth now, dripping with saliva and blood. The curtains will draw.

Apologies for my English, I am Spaniard

That's the funniest thing I've read (or heard) all day. Thanks for the laugh!!

 

[wadetemp]

not only is it listed as a new model, it's in /System/Library/Extensions/AppleMacRISC4PE.kext/ - which the funny part of is the 4PE, meaning, if I understand this right, a 4 processor usage. That could be quite interesting...

The 4 doesn't indicate number of processors unfortunately. All the G5s (PowerMac7,2 and RackMac3,1, and the not-yet-seen PowerMac7,3) are MacRisc4 platforms and use this kext.

What I find interesting is that the PowerMac8,1 entry points to a non-existant plugin called SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin. (7,2 and 7,3 use PowerMac7_2_PlatformPlugin, and RackMac uses RackMac3_1_PlatformPlugin.)

The bad of this is although 10.3.4 has this entry in the plist file, the plugin binary's just not there, so 10.3.4 is not really compatible with the new system... so I don't think a release date can be inferred by the fact the plist changed. (Note the PowerMac7,3 STILL isn't here, and at least in this area it would be supported by the code they're shipping today.)

The good is that the G5's codename was "Neo." Given the name of the nonexistant plugin, I have high hopes for something good to come along... plus someday we'll get a PowerMac7,3 too.

 

[centauratlas]

STOP!
... or Steve won't say a word about missing the mark.

They won't say a word about missing the mark because the mark is "end of summer" 2004, e.g. around Sept 21, 2004 +/- a few days.

Steve revised his "within a year" statement from June 2003 in Sept of 2003, as has been beaten to death numerous times.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Leo

LOL. No doubt I was beginning to think IBM was infected with Moto disease.

Hell man right now I would take a Dual 2.01 speed bump. Just kidding.

Damn man you're supposed to get hot under the collar because of my ribbbing you. Oh well...my provocation skills are weak. Welcome to the board......noob heheheh.

I figure Apple will have some cool stuff and once again I won't be able to afford what I "really" want without a loan. C'est la vie

Makes a man want a good ole fashioned Public Roadmap.