New U.S. Antitrust Bill Would Require Apple and Google to Allow Third-Party App Stores and Sideloading

[deevey]

I don't care what other people do with their phones.

Do you care that when a company messes with someone else's phone, lets say, your best friend or family member for arguements sake. That YOUR messages, shared interests, birthday, shared photos, access to your social media accounts or perhaps more intimate stuff between the two of you are now, not private anymore ?

 

[PlayUltimate]

Let's not forget that Apple really created the phone developer. Prior to iOS, if I wanted to load additional functionality on to my VZ flip phone I had to go through there store and pick an app that they allowed. I do not recall there being any development ecosystem. Thus, when Apple created the App Store, almost anyone could go into business for almost no cost. They could create a developer account, download Xcode, and create an app. Then they could have it posted in the App Store all for the low cost of $99. Apple would only take a % of every dollar that you sold. If you sold nothing, it cost you nothing.
People just don't remember how things were before the app store existed. If you wanted to sell a computer application, you had to self-market, set-up payment systems, create your own website etc. And then you had to hope people trusted you enough to download it. And if you were successful, you had to hope it wasn't immediately pirated.
Sigh, there are reasons why people moved on from the "good old days."

 

[dk001]

Absolutely not. This is big with for developers like Epic.

Forcing Apple to allow third-party app stores will remove one key differentiator between Android and iOS. I don't want to side load not do I want alternate app stores. And saying "just don't enable it" it very short-sighted. Multiple app stores leads to app availability issues. This means that I will HAVE to allow side loading or alt stores in order to have access to all apps. In many cases that is probably OK. I could just choose to use an alternative app. But there will be cases where an essential app is only available via alternate paths. So it is no loger a choice to enable or not.

This is a net negative to all but the largest developers (or most vocal minority developers and "geek" users). I am a bit of a geek user. I have been a developer for decades. I used to jailbreak my phone. I have an iOS developer account and have written a few apps (for personal use - never put on the store). But I don't want this on my iPhone. I have an Android phone as well that I can do this on if I really want to.

Result of this legislation as reported:

1. iOS and Android are now functionally equivalent (removes a key differentiator)
2. iOS app discovery gets worse than it is currently is as users need to search multiple stores
3. Need to allow alternate app stores and side load will become required over time
4. Higher costs to developers is inevitable which is severely hurt smaller developers
5. App innovation will decrease - many of the smaller devs come up with the more innovative apps; large devs are looking for franchises only
6. Costs to users will go up as developer costs go up
7. The freemium and subscription "raping of users' wallets" will continue and get worse.

This comment is based on the reported scope of the legislation. I will be reading he draft later today.

Also, I know this reads as rather hyperbolic, but I really am hard pressed to find positives here. Android already allows all this so why do we need it on iOS too? They are different platforms with different sell points. And for the legislation to call out Google as a target for these "remediations" shows a lack of understanding of the market they trying to "open."

Do us all a favor and take a hard look at the side loading / alt store that exists in the Android world today. The actual environment, not the media / nay-sayer espoused OMG WWW version.

You will find it is pretty much the opposite of what your were trying to put forth on all your points.

 

[dk001]

Let's not forget that Apple really created the phone developer. Prior to iOS, if I wanted to load additional functionality on to my VZ flip phone I had to go through there store and pick an app that they allowed. I do not recall there being any development ecosystem. Thus, when Apple created the App Store, almost anyone could go into business for almost no cost. They could create a developer account, download Xcode, and create an app. Then they could have it posted in the App Store all for the low cost of $99. Apple would only take a % of every dollar that you sold. If you sold nothing, it cost you nothing.
People just don't remember how things were before the app store existed. If you wanted to sell a computer application, you had to self-market, set-up payment systems, create your own website etc. And then you had to hope people trusted you enough to download it. And if you were successful, you had to hope it wasn't immediately pirated.
Sigh, there are reasons why people moved on from the "good old days."

My last phone before my first iPhone was a Blackjack. I had several points I could get apps. Now the Razr before that …. Yeah.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Let's not forget that Apple really created the phone developer. Prior to iOS, if I wanted to load additional functionality on to my VZ flip phone I had to go through there store and pick an app that they allowed. I do not recall there being any development ecosystem. Thus, when Apple created the App Store, almost anyone could go into business for almost no cost. They could create a developer account, download Xcode, and create an app. Then they could have it posted in the App Store all for the low cost of $99. Apple would only take a % of every dollar that you sold. If you sold nothing, it cost you nothing.
People just don't remember how things were before the app store existed. If you wanted to sell a computer application, you had to self-market, set-up payment systems, create your own website etc. And then you had to hope people trusted you enough to download it. And if you were successful, you had to hope it wasn't immediately pirated.
Sigh, there are reasons why people moved on from the "good old days."

Smartphones would have become a "thing" either way.

A lot of what you're saying about the challenges of marketing and distributing apps was really just held back by technology to that point in time.

 

[WiseAJ]

Yep… Remember how that insecure app was installed on a bunch of peoples’ phones and 19 terrorists used that information to hijack planes and attack the U.S.?

This may be the dumbest invocation of the “what about 9/11” argument I’ve heard yet.

Think its a joke now sure, but when it actually happens I'm sure you'll be the first to tweet "Thoughts and Prayers"

Technology is being used more and more everywhere that any access point into any system can and will be exploited by terrorists. But sure let's make it easier for them.

 

[jameslmoser]

That's the crux of it all. Apple poured all the time, effort, and resources into designing and building a solid device. They then offered a gateway onto their device and made it one of the most successful platforms globally. Now the children who couldn't create their own successful platforms want to cry and scream until they can steal their way into this one, because reasons. The ones screaming about wanting the device more open to anything are also the ones crying over the CSAM issue, your ability to perform such mental gymnastics is impressive.

Allowing any government so much power to make laws like this is going to lead to some rude awakenings in the very near future.

No one is forcing any of Apple's users to use different app stores, etc. And I SHOULD be able to use other software on MY devices if I want to... I paid for it, if I break it apple would be more then happy to charge me for a new one.

Who would benefit from a lot more platforms??? What developers want to have to create apps for more platforms? This is a case where it is beneficial for there to be one (or maybe two) platforms, as long as they are fair. Apple forcing everyone to pay them while also competing with them in many cases IS NOT fair.

I have no doubt at all that allowing 3rd party app stores and side loading is going to improve things.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Let's assume this law passes and Apple is forced to allow competing app stores. What are some likely scenarios?

Will big players like Amazon or Samsung make a store? They already have Android app stores... is there any benefit to building an iOS app store?

Will Netflix create a "store" that just sells Netflix subscriptions? Same for Spotify?

Will smaller companies or individuals create their own stores from the ground up? Frank's App Shack? Tommy's App Kingdom?

And I'm assuming for any of this to happen... Apple will have to re-engineer the entire platform to offer some kind of protection from apps that come from these outside sources. Apple's not gonna let just anything run wild.

I know Windows and MacOS have always allowed 3rd-party software without much worry.

But iOS was built assuming apps only came from the official App Store and went through strict review.

Look... I understand why this is happening... one app store = bad, anti-trust violation, yadda yadda yadda...

But I want to know the how... the actual physical process to make this possible.

For 13 years there was just one App Store. So I'm curious to know how I will get apps from Henry's App Bonanza onto my iPhone.

 

[ksec]

If Walmart and Target were the only 2 stores in the US, I am pretty sure they would have to comply with a lot.

Because there is a lot of different stores they can do whatever they want. If there would be 10 different OS there would no need for this.

Oh Thank You. That reply was the 2nd Top Voted comments on MR again!. Just shows you how the majority ( on MR at least ) have zero idea of market place.

 

[vipergts2207]

Smartphones would have become a "thing" either way.

A lot of what you're saying about the challenges of marketing and distributing apps was really just held back by technology to that point in time.

Exactly. What kind of apps would people have been running on a flip phone? Even pre-iPhone Blackberrys had like a 2" screen. The processors certainly wouldn't have been designed to be up to the task. How big was the pre-iPhone mobile app market? It was probably measured in tens of millions of dollars at best. Today it's worth ten of billions of dollars, multiple orders of magnitude. Certainly the government's concern is greater, the larger the market and the more important the market.

 

[gregmancuso]

You can sideload on a game console (i.e. bypassing Sony's, Microsoft's, Nintendo's, etc. game store) by buying games on a disc/card through Amazon, Best Buy, etc.

That is not side loading. Any game you buy on disc is still covered by the game console "App Store." The games are vetted and approved. The publisher pays the same fees as if downloaded. Only difference is that you are not downlaoding.

 

[gregmancuso]

Will I be able to download apps from anywhere on my smart TV now. How about on my car's system.

Will I finally be able to get CarPlay in my Tesla?

 

[gregmancuso]

If developers are worried about their app(s) getting pirated, then they don't have to use 3rd party app stores. They can keep their app secured on Apple's app store.

And if iOS users are worried about malware getting on their iDevice by using 3rd party app stores, they can stick to getting apps only through Apple's app store.

You know, no one is required or will be forced to use 3rd party app stores or 3rd party payments. That's the beauty of having options and choice.

I have not read the complete text yet so I may be wrong here. But, per the article, the bill does ban Apple from requiring their own payment option. So, people will be forced to use third-party payment even if they do not opt for third-party stores or side sideloading.

 

[gregmancuso]

I can't say I'm thrilled about this. Your phone is about to become a cesspool of trashware as developers leave the App store and Apple's safety review. I chose the walled garden because I wanted to not have to worry about this stuff.

To all those saying "just don't sideload", HA. You know that's going to be the primary method of getting apps as soon as the AAA developers build their stores. Now to get an app I'll have to install that developer's store, manage my login/pass/CC info there, install the app, deal with all their store's updates and sales pitches, and that's just for one app. This will happen for all the AAA apps. The Epic lawsuit shows the way. Soon it'll be King/Zynga/Adobe/Microsoft/Facebook/TenCent/et al soaking up bandwith, eating your battery, introducing all manner of security breaches, etc.

Big developers win. Hackers win. Small developers don't. Customers don't. Enjoy your 12% savings at cost of your security, bandwidth, storage space, and battery.

You forgot convenience. If apps are spread all over then it will be harder to find the app you want. Discovery is hard with one store. Even with every app having a direct link to the store page most devs do a crap job of marketing themselves and their apps. So the limited discovery that the App Store provides is the main avenue for most to find anything. That one avenue will go away too.

 

[gregmancuso]

How is Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo getting a cut if I buy the game pre-owned through 3rd party stores like GameStop, eBay, Facebook Marketplace, etc.?

That was not the point. Regardless of where you got the disc it still went through the manufacturer's vetting process. The store (license) fees were paid on the original sale. This is not side loading. Nor is using the disc as a resale purchase.

Tangentially, all software sale moving to download will eventually kill the resale market as discs will eventually cease to exist and there are currently now ways (that I know of) to resell a downloaded copy of a game.

 

[Joe The Dragon]

Will I finally be able to get CarPlay in my Tesla?

people want NON DEALER REPAIR app for there car

 

[Michael Scrip]

You forgot convenience. If apps are spread all over then it will be harder to find the app you want. Discovery is hard with one store. Even with every app having a direct link to the store page most devs do a crap job of marketing themselves and their apps. So the limited discovery that the App Store provides is the main avenue for most to find anything. That one avenue will go away too.

I bet there will be websites that catalog all these apps across all the different stores.

The websites themselves will look like a store... but with links to the various other website stores.

Store-ception...

 

[gregmancuso]

Two things:

win for consumers

win for consumers a small number of developers.

phones will be full of malware

That is very likely true. Malware is not just viruses. Also adware, spyware, key loggers, trackers, trojans, etc.

 

[gregmancuso]

I bet there will be websites that catalog all these apps across all the different stores.

The websites themselves will look like a store... but with links to the various other website stores.

Store-ception...

Those sites already exist. That's the point - think CNet or any of the spammy "Best XYZ apps" sites. Even with them people complain here about app discovery. How is having more stores with more places to search than we already have going to magically make these web sites worth the bits they're printed with?

 

[gregmancuso]

people want NON DEALER REPAIR app for there car

Not following that? I was taking this bill to a logical extension - third-party app stores for in-car. A Tesla is basically a giant iPad with a car wrapped around it (OK custom fork of Android but you get the gist). I want an Apple App Store in my Tesla so I can download Car Play. I don't want to use the built in Google Maps navigation and I want better apps than Tesla's "make any seat fart" app.

 

[jlc1978]

We care about the environment, so we're going to charge you more than an iPad Air to repair it.

ONLY 64% the cost of it new 🤦‍♂️ Bargain.

Typical Apple though. The same that charges $329 for a 6.5" OLED (11 Pro max) replacement that the part costs about $67 per supply chain sources. EVEN paying an employee an hour and some toward the equipment to do the process, that is easily 50% or more profit to Apple hence the insane cost. It SHOULD be a $199 repair maximum.

This would be a great app if it ran in macOS 10.13.x or later. It's very limited by only working in Crapalina and Big Suck and a no-go for me. There's a guy who wrote PDFZone (great app, by the way) that still works with 10.13. It's too bad the developer of this app can't do the same.

You are about a day behind. That argument was already made and put down. Please keep up.

I remember the heyday of jail breaking where pirated apps were easy to find and load.

Lawsuit was not about difficulty. Lawsuit was same as the one against Apple re: sales commission. Truth was nobody was taking advantage of side loading.

Gee EPIC wants to make money but not pay for someone else to carry it and sell it.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Those sites already exist. That's the point - think CNet or any of the spammy "Best XYZ apps" sites.

Yes I know those sites exist. I just wanted to make my Store-ception joke...

How is having more stores with more places to search than we already have going to magically make these web sites worth the bits they're printed with?

I've been told that there NEEDS to be more stores because of Anti-Trust. Apple cannot provide the sole store for apps. It's unfair. No competition. Or something.

And Anti-Trust. Definitely Anti-Trust.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[turbineseaplane]

So the limited discovery that the App Store provides is the main avenue for most to find anything. That one avenue will go away too.

I haven't "discovered" an iOS or macOS app in their stores, literally since like 2013
It's a horrendously "junk" experience.

The advertising and discovery aspects of the Mac & iOS stores should not be held up as "great things we would lose".

Apple does a horrendous job in this regard

 

[Apleeseed84]

Let's not forget that Apple really created the phone developer. Prior to iOS, if I wanted to load additional functionality on to my VZ flip phone I had to go through there store and pick an app that they allowed. I do not recall there being any development ecosystem. Thus, when Apple created the App Store, almost anyone could go into business for almost no cost. They could create a developer account, download Xcode, and create an app. Then they could have it posted in the App Store all for the low cost of $99. Apple would only take a % of every dollar that you sold. If you sold nothing, it cost you nothing.
People just don't remember how things were before the app store existed. If you wanted to sell a computer application, you had to self-market, set-up payment systems, create your own website etc. And then you had to hope people trusted you enough to download it. And if you were successful, you had to hope it wasn't immediately pirated.
Sigh, there are reasons why people moved on from the "good old days."

I have never had problems finding apps for my treo and symbian devices, the only problem I remember that was colossal was data plans, unlimited everything was un heard of. I feel it was easier to find apps back in the day than I do now, everything is setup to be “ranked” according to how deep their pockets are

 

[RedRage]

Do you care that when a company messes with someone else's phone, lets say, your best friend or family member for arguements sake. That YOUR messages, shared interests, birthday, shared photos, access to your social media accounts or perhaps more intimate stuff between the two of you are now, not private anymore ?

I don't care. I don't share anything on the world wide web that I wouldn't want anyone to see. Nothing is private no matter how many lies Apple tells you.