newbie forum

[CalBoy]

something that could easily be solved with something like this.

That's the question though: will it solve anything? I think that is still very much up in the air.

Not to mention the problems of creating isolation and potentially turning away new forum members by sheer bureaucratic force!

Are you serious?

Yes.

Is there a reason I shouldn't be?

Because stepping newbies through something like this makes them aware about what they do on the forums, and in the long run, better members because of it.

Again, we don't know, nor is there an overwhelming reason to believe so, if this will necessarily accomplish that.

While I can appreciate the frustration (because I too feel it at times), it doesn't mean that this idea is the one we should go with.

It may just happen to be that there is no good solution for this problem, and we all have to deal with as a fact of life for an ever increasing forum population.

People who've been members long enough to have seen at least two "search, godddamn it" posts and haven't taken it in, well they're just asking for a flaming when they post asking where the screen is on their new 24" iMac.

Does that justify the flaming? Unless I'm mistaken, flaming a poster, no matter their status on MR, is frowned upon and against the rules. Corralling new members wouldn't change the behavior of older members, and wouldn't necessarily produce any positive effects.

So, I ask, what would you do with the non-newbie who spills soda on his macbook?

 

[Eidorian]

Someone else answered this long ago.

 

[squeeks]

So, I ask, what would you do with the non-newbie who spills soda on his macbook?

laugh at him because he should know better

but seriously, there are threads in the notebook forums all the time trying to show us how much better it is to buy a dell because its much cheaper, its always a newbie, and they are always just wanting to pick a fight, this would keep that from happening that as well...its better to have a smaller more dedicated community than a large community with a bunch of idiots just wanting to start flame wars or thread dissing apple. A newbie forum would weed out those posts of people who just want to post one dumb thread and never come back.

 

[CalBoy]

laugh at him because he should know better

Then I think we owe the same courtesy to new members as well.

 

[squeeks]

now im not saying having a newbie forum will keep people from spilling drinks on their laptops, but if they couldnt post they would take the extra time to look halfway down the page and see OH someone else spilt something on theirs let me see what they did, then you would already have 10 replies, with people saying exactly what to do, IN FACT it might actually HELP them because they will not have to wait for the obvious reply of "take the battery out and turn it upside down"

 

[Eidorian]

now im not saying having a newbie forum will keep people from spilling drinks on their laptops, but if they couldnt post they would take the extra time to look halfway down the page and see OH someone else spilt something on theirs let me see what they did, then you would already have 10 replies, with people saying exactly what to do, IN FACT it might actually HELP them because they will not have to wait for the obvious reply of "take the battery out and turn it upside down"

There's actually already a guide on what to do.

I've seen CanadaRAM use it many times before and it came to mind. Not to mention the endless Intel Mac RAM questions.

I've made a few guides myself but the effort feels overlooked with so many redundant posts.

 

[CalBoy]

It might help in that narrow situation, but it would also constrain other new members who have no desire to participate in such discussions. Suppose they sign up to comment on news stories/rumors?

It also wouldn't necessitate members to read any more than they do now, as they will simply create new threads in the "newbie forum" as they do in the "help" forum now.

The only aspect of the equation that has changed is whether or not you have to pay attention to it.

 

[squeeks]

There's actually already a guide on what to do.

we need to sticky that puppy to the top of the notebook forums

 

[Eidorian]

It might help in that narrow situation, but it would also constrain other new members who have no desire to participate in such discussions. Suppose they sign up to comment on news stories/rumors?

It also wouldn't necessitate members to read any more than they do now, as they will simply create new threads in the "newbie forum" as they do in the "help" forum now.

The only aspect of the equation that has changed is whether or not you have to pay attention to it.

I have to agree. There are going to be new users that want to participate in a technical discussion off the bat instead of the much more plentiful "halp!1" threads. I'm much more inclined to participate in long hardware discussions. I do give some help now and again but I'm not entitled to go overboard with it.

I think we've talked about this before as well.

we need to sticky that puppy to the top of the notebook forums

I've asked the staff to sticky things before. There's only so much space before you bump the latest threads off with stickies.

 

[bigandy]

It may just happen to be that there is no good solution for this problem, and we all have to deal with as a fact of life for an ever increasing forum population.

You're right - there isn't a perfect solution, there hardly ever is for a problem, no matter how minor.

Does that justify the flaming? Unless I'm mistaken, flaming a poster, no matter their status on MR, is frowned upon and against the rules. Corralling new members wouldn't change the behavior of older members, and wouldn't necessarily produce any positive effects.

No, flaming isn't the right route, but many members do it. There's another issue that needs addressed. The best way that can be addressed is by more people using the

button, something which I'm not sure that many people know about

So, I ask, what would you do with the non-newbie who spills soda on his macbook?

Drop that thought - this isn't about spilling liquids on a portable computer, it's about people continually posting threads that are brought up again and again and again and you get the idea.

Someone else answered this long ago.

People answer this all the time, but what is done about it?

Itss better to have a smaller more dedicated community than a large community with a bunch of idiots just wanting to start flame wars or thread dissing apple. A newbie forum would weed out those posts of people who just want to post one dumb thread and never come back.

I absolutely agree with this. That's what I'm attempting to get at. Albeit slowly and craply

we need to sticky that puppy to the top of the notebook forums

There's a lot we should have stickied. But then again, people don't read them.

 

[squeeks]

The best way that can be addressed is by more people using the

button, something which I'm not sure that many people know about

i love that button i use it all the time

Drop that thought - this isn't about spilling liquids on a portable computer, it's about people continually posting threads that are brought up again and again and again and you get the idea.

correct thankyou

There's a lot we should have stickied. But then again, people don't read them.

along with "what do you want to see on the next XXXX system"

god i dont know how many time thats been posted

 

[CalBoy]

You're right - there isn't a perfect solution, there hardly ever is for a problem, no matter how minor.

So you agree it's a minor issue then?

If so, perhaps it's best to live and let live.

No, flaming isn't the right route, but many members do it. There's another issue that needs addressed. The best way that can be addressed is by more people using the

button, something which I'm not sure that many people know about

Drop that thought - this isn't about spilling liquids on a portable computer, it's about people continually posting threads that are brought up again and again and again and you get the idea.

You missed the point of my question.

Does your response depend on the status of the user? If so, then moving all new members' posts into a specified forum won't actually accomplish anything as it treats the symptom, not the problem.

People answer this all the time, but what is done about it?

More importantly, does anything have to be done about it?

I absolutely agree with this. That's what I'm attempting to get at. Albeit slowly and craply

I don't think segregation is the answer.

The problem is caused by a gap between where the rules are and where the posters are. The rules need to be thrust upon users in a non-confrontational yet effective way. That's where the problem lies, and that's where the solution can be found.

There's a lot we should have stickied. But then again, people don't read them.

Indeed. The best way to ensure that your thread is never seen is to sticky it.

 

[bigandy]

So you agree it's a minor issue then?

If so, perhaps it's best to live and let live.
No, I don't believe it is a minor issue - every time I'm out in teh publics, I see these kind of threads everywhere.

Does your response depend on the status of the user? If so, then moving all new members' posts into a specified forum won't actually accomplish anything as it treats the symptom, not the problem.

No. Even if they're a damn 601, I'm still going to give the same response. Obviously not in a condescending manner, "Here's the answer, but next time please remember to try a search. It's been answered before. "

More importantly, does anything have to be done about it?

No, let's just get rid of the moderators too, and let everyone run riot.

I don't think segregation is the answer.

It's not segregation, it's a sandbox for 25 posts. It's not like we're proposing offering forums.macnoobs.com, and closing membership to forums.macrumors.com...

The problem is caused by a gap between where the rules are and where the posters are. The rules need to be thrust upon users in a non-confrontational yet effective way. That's where the problem lies, and that's where the solution can be found.

And we've been over that before, too. Unless they're forced to read them, they won't. You know the license window in OpenOffice, the one that makes you scroll to the bottom before you can accept? Yeah, think of the probable stats - who in the hell actually reads it, and who just clicks the "scroll down" bottom continually so it zips down there, then clicks OK? I'm sure you can answer that one pretty damn quickly without raking through Google.

Indeed. The best way to ensure that your thread is never seen is to sticky it.

Unfortunately a truth. Forum users the tubes over seem to have a blind spot where stickies go.

 

[EricNau]

Personally, I don't see a problem with the current system, and even if there was a problem, I don't feel this would be the proper way to address it. I know it annoys a lot of people, but threads on repeating topics don't bother me; it's simple enough to politely respond with links to past threads and leave it at that ...no rude comments or sarcastic emoticons necessary. In other words, if it bothers you, there's no reason you have to post; just act as if the thread was never cerated.

Besides, such a limit would only drive people away. Is that what we're really after?


I would however, agree with a policy in place limiting the number of threads a user can create on their first day (preferably to one). The idea behind this restriction is simply to limit the number of spam threads a user can create at one time, and I can't see how this would otherwise interfere with the everyday workings of the site.

 

[CalBoy]

No, I don't believe it is a minor issue - every time I'm out in teh publics, I see these kind of threads everywhere.

So here's a wild thought: don't respond to them.

Would that really hurt anyone?

No. Even if they're a damn 601, I'm still going to give the same response.

So then going back to squeeks' suggestion of creating a separate forum just for new members, how would this fit into that? I was under the impression that you were on board with that.

I frankly don't see the point if you'll still respond to 601s with a "please search" request. Like I said before, haven't you merely covered up the symptoms and left the root problem to fester and grow?

No, let's just get rid of the moderators too, and let everyone run riot.

Not at all. I wouldn't dare return to MR if the mods were to go on strike or leave suddenly. They do amazing stuff.

The question is though, is this "newbie forum" really necessary?

It seems to be more of an emotionally-driven request rather than a thoroughly hashed out plan.

It's not segregation, it's a sandbox for 25 posts. It's not like we're proposing offering forums.macnoobs.com, and closing membership to forums.macrumors.com...

You are labeling people for no other purpose than your belief that they will potentially start a thread that you won't like to see. That doesn't seem conducive to a good forum environment to me. If I was to join before this policy, I'd be very irritated, especially because I never posted a thread about spilling soda, or how to check my battery life, or <insert ad nauseam thread title here>.

I didn't mind the restrictions on the PRSI forum or the Marketplace or not having an avatar as they didn't fully restrict my use of the site. I still had the luxury to participate in most of the site. By putting all new registrants into a "sandbox" where they need 25 posts to leave from wouldn't be good for every new member. One size does not fit all.

I'm sure you can answer that one pretty damn quickly without raking through Google.

Yes, I know what you're saying. And yet, despite this, it seems that the preponderance of forum members are capable of following the rules. Given the vast number of registrations, and the vast number of thread created daily, we see only one or two repetitive ones pop up on a daily basis. That's fairly small potatoes if you put it in perspective.

Besides, such a limit would only drive people away. Is that what we're really after?

Yes, this concerns me as well. The forums need new members to stay on and become valuable members. Everyone brings a unique wealth of knowledge to the forums. What mad jew doesn't know, someone else is likely to. By having more active participants, the quality of the forums goes up and the number of people who are willing to stay and participate also goes up. Making the process more difficult from the get-go can make turn potentially valuable new members off of the idea of being part of MR, and we might never see them again.

I would however, agree with a policy in place limiting the number of threads a user can create on their first day (preferably to one). The idea behind this restriction is simply to limit the number of spam threads a user can create at one time, and I can't see how this would otherwise interfere with the everyday workings of the site.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. Most new members who do have a question usually have a particular problem/issue, and this would be an expedient way to limit spam.

My guess is though that there would be a software problem behind it (vB code would have to be worked on with a large potential for new bugs to arise).

Nonetheless, it's a good idea.

 

[bigandy]

So here's a wild thought: don't respond to them.

Umm, I don't.

I frankly don't see the point if you'll still respond to 601s with a "please search" request. Like I said before, haven't you merely covered up the symptoms and left the root problem to fester and grow?

I subscribe to the view that if you teach people early in their forum life, about appropriate actions on said forum, that they will take these lessons on board and will learn. That will translate to the majority of other board users in good time. There's no overnight fix, or something that can solve it immediately.

Not at all. I wouldn't dare return to MR if the mods were to go on strike or leave suddenly. They do amazing stuff.

Sarcasm. Sarcasm smilie for future reference -->

The question is though, is this "newbie forum" really necessary?

I believe some form that we've been over is appropriate. It may turn out it's not ideal to be introduced as a Newbie Forum...

It seems to be more of an emotionally-driven request rather than a thoroughly hashed out plan.

Obviously it's not "throughly hashed out", which is why we're talking about it.
As stated previously, I'm all for the way some other forums implement this plan. It doesn't alienate their users, it doesn't turn people away, and it roots out all the crap.

You are labeling people for no other purpose than your belief that they will potentially start a thread that you won't like to see. That doesn't seem conducive to a good forum environment to me. If I was to join before this policy, I'd be very irritated, especially because I never posted a thread about spilling soda, or how to check my battery life, or <insert ad nauseam thread title here>.

No I'm not. I'm attempting to help this discussion along, and my view is that some sort of helpful area where we can illustrate the recurring issues to new members, that they'll see when they first join up, may go some way to reducing the recurring posts that, to be honest, as a group, we could possibly benefit from not having pop up each week. Yes, it bothers me that they keep happening, but I'm not about to go insulting people because of what they've said here. You need to understand that it is not my intention to alienate other members, or to drive any away, but rather to suggest ways to weed out the unnecessary threads - and you've got to admit they're just that.

I didn't mind the restrictions on the PRSI forum or the Marketplace or not having an avatar as they didn't fully restrict my use of the site. I still had the luxury to participate in most of the site. By putting all new registrants into a "sandbox" where they need 25 posts to leave from wouldn't be good for every new member. One size does not fit all.

Nor did I. I fully support the rules and regulations in place on MacRumors, and it is certainly the best run large community website that I've ever had the pleasure of visiting. True, one size does not fit all - but show me a law, regulation, statute or ruling that does. Some people are totally genuine yet can't post in the Marketplace until they've made 100 posts, and that could surely bother some members. Some may want to just post in the PRSI, but of course they can't until reaching that same goal.

Yes, I know what you're saying. And yet, despite this, it seems that the preponderance of forum members are capable of following the rules. Given the vast number of registrations, and the vast number of thread created daily, we see only one or two repetitive ones pop up on a daily basis. That's fairly small potatoes if you put it in perspective.

Absolutely - the majority of the 100,000+ members of MacRumors follow the rules. The majority of members don't cause issues. The majority of members don't get banned. So what if it's small potatoes? They're still rotten potatoes you shouldn't put in the oven along with your Sunday Roast.

Yes, this concerns me as well. The forums need new members to stay on and become valuable members. Everyone brings a unique wealth of knowledge to the forums. What mad jew doesn't know, someone else is likely to. By having more active participants, the quality of the forums goes up and the number of people who are willing to stay and participate also goes up. Making the process more difficult from the get-go can make turn potentially valuable new members off of the idea of being part of MR, and we might never see them again.

Have you ever used a forum that had this implemented before? I've mentioned several times in this thread that I have, and it works. It doesn't drive people away, it creates a tighter community of valuable members (not that our existing members are not), and weeds out repetitive threads, without putting any extra strain on the mods and gods. It even lessens the possibility of wearing out the Report Post button!

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. Most new members who do have a question usually have a particular problem/issue, and this would be an expedient way to limit spam.

Again, it's a good idea - I use another forum which is roughly the same size as this, and their new member policy is that new threads need to be moderator approved first. It takes a few hours for a post to come through occasionally, but that works well in that setting. As I've previously mentioned (or at the very least hinted at), other suggestions are more than welcome - and there very well may be a better solution than the newbie forum idea Squeeks first mentioned.

My guess is though that there would be a software problem behind it (vB code would have to be worked on with a large potential for new bugs to arise).

It's possible now. Other vBulletin boards do this.

 

[Sun Baked]

Please, please i like this idea ...

A place for newbies to go with important questions to be asked.

And also an area that we can ignore, and let them whine in peace about lack of help, and keep bumping their threads incessantly without bugging the rest of us.

---

Count me in for ignoring the whining newbies...

Peace at last.

 

[EricNau]

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. Most new members who do have a question usually have a particular problem/issue, and this would be an expedient way to limit spam.

My guess is though that there would be a software problem behind it (vB code would have to be worked on with a large potential for new bugs to arise).

Nonetheless, it's a good idea.

The downside being that spammers may just create multiple usernames to bypass the system (making more hassle for the moderators), or it could encourage spamming within threads (making it harder to notice). However, if there was software in place to automatically detect multiple registrations from a single IP, such a limit might be worth considering.

Umm, I don't.

Then what's the problem? There are hundreds of threads started every day which I'm either not qualified to answer or do not wish to participate in, yet I'm not insisting that they be quarantined to a different part of the forums.

 

[bigandy]

Then what's the problem? There are hundreds of threads started every day which I'm either not qualified to answer or do not wish to participate in, yet I'm not insisting that they be quarantined to a different part of the forums.

So you don't agree with a thread? Why are you posting here then?

Do you deny that it'd improve the forums if we didn't have duplicate threads, flaming wars, and other annoyances that, unfortunately, are mostly caused by newer members?

 

[EricNau]

So you don't agree with a thread? Why are you posting here then?

Do you deny that it'd improve the forums if we didn't have duplicate threads, flaming wars, and other annoyances that, unfortunately, are mostly caused by newer members?

Duplicate threads don't bother me, and I fail to see how a sandbox forum would encourage improvement as far as "annoyances" are concerned.

Essentially you would just confine these problems to a restricted area; as soon as a user meets the 25 post quota, they will still face an assimilation period in which they have to adjust to the characteristics of the "real" MacRumors community ...you're just delaying this process by 25 posts.

 

[Eraserhead]

but seriously, there are threads in the notebook forums all the time trying to show us how much better it is to buy a dell because its much cheaper, its always a newbie, and they are always just wanting to pick a fight, this would keep that from happening that as well...

if they are trolling/astroturf then report them and they can be wastelanded.

 

[bigandy]

Duplicate threads don't bother me, and I fail to see how a sandbox forum would encourage improvement as far as "annoyances" are concerned.

Essentially you would just confine these problems to a restricted area; as soon as a user meets the 25 post quota, they will still face an assimilation period in which they have to adjust to the characteristics of the "real" MacRumors community ...you're just delaying this process by 25 posts.

So you think anyone that has to abide to such a rule for their first 25 posts wouldn't actually PAY ANY ATTENTION to the rules, the reason they're restricted for the first few posts?

Come on.

if the are trolling/astroturf then report them and they can be wastelanded.

And the idea of this would be one way to assist with decreasing the number of threads that need to be reported!

 

[Eraserhead]

And the idea of this would be one way to assist with decreasing the number of threads that need to be reported!

If there aren't enough moderators to handle the post reports add more. The big problem is that if you did that it would make the entire forum stink of elitism so that the interesting new members who are worth getting to know would probably get turned off the forum as they'd be newbies too.

 

[atszyman]

It is easier to spam 5 than to spam 500. If they have to post 5 posts to start a new thread they will just post useless stuff defeating the purpose.

The only good thing I can see out of a Newb Playground is that older members could look in there and answer questions easier. The down side is that it secludes new members from other topics in the site.

No matter what we do it's going to increase spam. If you isolate newbies for 25 posts they'll spam there until they can get to the main forum, especially since I could see a lot of people simply ignoring the newbie forum and leaving questions unanswered. If you limit them to 1 thread every 5 posts sure they might spam 4 posts to start another thread, but really, how hard is it to find 4 threads to reply to? Especially if you wander into the Community Discussion forum. To be honest I don't really see the problem, and most of my suggestions have been trying to find a way to limit newbies options while not isolating them from the rest of the community.

Or maybe we just leave everything as is and report duplicate threads and questions that could easily be answered by a search (provided that the current search function finds the answer with a reasonable set of search criteria). Lock down the threads with a single reply "This question has been asked and answered already [url=thread url]here[/url], please utilize the search function before starting new threads. I found it by searching for "keyword keyword..." This would give them an example of how to search and hopefully provide small incentives to search next time.

I really don't think we have as much of a problem as this thread would lead us to believe. The vast majority of duplicate threads I see seem to be from people with more than 25 posts anyway so isolating the newbies would only have a minimal impact.

Does anyone know how many new members join per day on average?

Of course banning threads for 25 posts wouldn't be the end all either. On the first page of the Picture Gallery I count more than 10 threads that anyone could add their picture to while staying completely on topic and none require actually putting up a picture of yourself. Another 5 on the front page of the Community Discussion probabaly at least another 5 on Current Events and at that point you only need an opinion on 5 or fewer of the news articles.

Of course I still think it's all a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist as badly as some believe.

 

[CalBoy]

Umm, I don't.

Then I fail to see how this unfairly affects you or other forum members.

If it is possible to simply gloss over such threads and move on, what's the big deal?

Have they become frequent enough where they consume your forum experience? Do you dread browsing those forums?

Do they prevent you from seeing other threads you might be interested in (I hope you answer "yes" to this one, as it's on my list as well)?

I subscribe to the view that if you teach people early in their forum life, about appropriate actions on said forum, that they will take these lessons on board and will learn. That will translate to the majority of other board users in good time. There's no overnight fix, or something that can solve it immediately.

I don't disagree with such a philosophy, I merely question the ability of this particular idea to deliver the desired results.

It wouldn't be appropriate for us to take up this idea simply because no other idea has come forth. We'll just have to go back to our thinking caps and try, try again.

Sarcasm. Sarcasm smilie for future reference -->

No sarcasm was intended. I really do appreciate the mods, and I try to make their lives easier by reporting posts and following the rules.

I believe some form that we've been over is appropriate. It may turn out it's not ideal to be introduced as a Newbie Forum...

Please describe one incarnation you feel would work, and I'll be sure to demonstrate why it doesn't.

Obviously it's not "throughly hashed out", which is why we're talking about it.

I wasn't aware zealous advocacy=talking about it.

You need to understand that it is not my intention to alienate other members, or to drive any away, but rather to suggest ways to weed out the unnecessary threads - and you've got to admit they're just that.

I'm afraid though, that any plan which separates by post count will end up creating alienation. It works when you're only restricted from a handful of forums, but when the vast majority of the forums are off limits to you, then you're not going to feel that the site is very neighborly.

So what if it's small potatoes? They're still rotten potatoes you shouldn't put in the oven along with your Sunday Roast.

The reason we should consider if they're small potatoes or not is because if the problem isn't too grave, then any solution could potentially do more harm than good.

There is no panacea for forums. Fixing one problem invariably reduces usability or ease of use, or some other facet of the forum. As such, it's best to only fix things when they are in serious need of repair.

I haven't yet been convinced that this problem is large enough where it requires a change as drastic as creating a new forum, separating members, and changing the entire new member experience.

Have you ever used a forum that had this implemented before? I've mentioned several times in this thread that I have, and it works.

No, I haven't. I'd love if you were to link me to a few of them.

Again, it's a good idea - I use another forum which is roughly the same size as this, and their new member policy is that new threads need to be moderator approved first.

That isn't the same as the "sandbox" you suggested earlier.

The moderator-approved method, I agree, will always reduce the number of repetitive threads to nearly 0. However, it requires a massive time investment on the part of more moderators who aren't paid anything.

Asking moderators to do this would be a bit much no? At the very least it would require doubling the moderator force in order to meet the possible demands of new users.

So you don't agree with a thread? Why are you posting here then?

Disagree with substance and not wanting to participate in a settled discussion are two very different things.

Do you deny that it'd improve the forums if we didn't have duplicate threads, flaming wars, and other annoyances that, unfortunately, are mostly caused by newer members?

I don't think anyone denies that. The only question is what (if anything) can be done to stop it. That is the million dollar question.