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I have not seen any numbers for Boxee sales. Nor sales for the AppleTV.
I suspect neither is in the millions...

For me, the Boxee Box was a much more valuable device, and I'm probably going to get a second unit.

C.

last time it was easy to break down by product on apple's quarterly report, atv had sold about 3million units in the year. Pretty good going for a hobby....

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But that's the case with 720p as well. It would be more efficient from a bandwidth perspective if we all went back to SD quality. Those files are smaller and burn less bandwidth.

And it would be even more efficient it we went back to VHS quality or even 320x200 video, as that would yield even smaller files and burn even less bandwidth.

It's certainly true that 1080p will tax bandwidth more than 720p as 720p taxes it more than SD. But rather than allowing that to be justification of why 720p or SD is good enough, it can instead be seen as a problem to be solved. Once, the biggest hard drives were 65Mb (yes Mb). But as storage demands have grown and grown, so solutions to limits have been innovated. If the world wants to pull more data through the Internet, the pipe expansion innovations will be necessary. That's going to happen anyway- whether 1080p is embraced or not- it's just progress.

On a personal scale, those dealing with ISP bandwidth caps and costs would still be able to do what those facing the same issues with 720p downloads now do: choose smaller options. If 1080p files are added to the iTunes store, I'm confident 720p and SD options will remain there too. For those with bandwidth concerns such that they are willing to compromise on resolution maximums, they just choose the 720p or SD version... exactly as they do now.

Not the point. Apple aren't in a position strong enough to force upgrades to national telecom infrastructures. They offer the best streaming quality for the average home user. If the advertise 1080 but the majority of users can't access that, then there would be a massive outcry from the press of apple not delivering what they 'promise'. Apple don't offer a two tier service, the majority of their customers would not be happy accepting a second rate service.

720 is pushing it for many people on domestic broadband. This is the limit of current technology for the majority. If this is to become a successful product, it has to appeal to the majority market, not a niche.
 
To folks mentioning Bluetooth, I'd like to point out that the current AppleTV already has it. It just hasn't been offically enabled yet. Though supposedly will be in iOS 5.
 
This gets me thinking; could Apple ever come up with a successful video game console for the living room? Hmmmmm...
 
Not the point. Apple aren't in a position strong enough to force upgrades to national telecom infrastructures.

I didn't say they were. If they roll out another little 1080p capable box- like Roku, Boxee, and many others- they just become contributors to the ever-growing demand for a faster, wider Internet. Again, whether Apple does or does not, that faster Internet- that greater bandwidth- will come anyway. That's progress. For this little piece of that, Apple can give it to other players or try to take a bit of it themselves. For a couple of years now, I can stream 1080p via Vudu.com in an app built into my Samsung HDTV. The demand for greater bandwidth exists with or without this ONE thing from Apple. Either way, average bandwidth must expand.

Does it expand first and then things that use the added bandwidth show up? No, stuff like bandwidth expands when demand threatens or causes problem. Do you really think AT&T, Verizon & Sprint want to spend the money to build out 4G? No, they would rather keep all that expense on their profit lines. But the pressure for more, more, more forces them to work (to spend money now) on the problem. This is the same. And it's not Apple being solely the force behind the pressure but just one of many variables asking for a bit more from the Internet.

Does Apple want to make the wise decision to wait until all that broadband everywhere is up to snuff for such stuff? No. Look at iCloud and the concepts people have of streaming everything. Apple is putting it's little bit of pressure on the bandwidth builders with iCloud. Lots of other companies are adding their pressure too. Solving that problem is what will get it done.

If the advertise 1080 but the majority of users can't access that, then there would be a massive outcry from the press of apple not delivering what they 'promise'.

Is that what happened when Apple went from 4:3 iPod formatted video to SD video in iTunes years ago (when bandwidth was even less)? How about when they went from offering SD widescreen to 720p a few years ago?

Apple don't offer a two tier service, the majority of their customers would not be happy accepting a second rate service.

Not sure I understand this one. If by "two-tier" you mean the choice of 1080p vs. 720p options, Apple already has two tiers: 720p vs. SD options. And even there, someone with dial up who struggles downloading an SD file could still opt for the (current best (from Apple) of 720p) file and just wait out the lengthier download. To each his own. It's not Apple's fault that someone's bandwidth in one place is much less than someone else's somewhere else. If Apple has to play to lowest common denominator, they should remove all video from iTunes as there are some people with less than 56K dial up.

720 is pushing it for many people on domestic broadband. This is the limit of current technology for the majority. If this is to become a successful product, it has to appeal to the majority market, not a niche.
The train has left the station. Almost all other devices in the marketplace are already 1080p. Almost all HDTVs you can buy are 1080p. People are sold- right or wrong- on a concept of "Full HD" at 1080p vs. barely "HD" at 720p. Compete with the evolving standard or let people who pay up for the modern standards buy other options. Apple just embraced 1080p themselves with iPhones that can shoot 1080p. If they still felt 720p is good enough, why would they do that?

Besides, the "domestic bandwidth" problem is outside of Apple's control. They can't solve that problem themselves. They are not the keepers of those pipes. If their solution is really to cling to 720p and let others sell the 1080p crowd, then the bandwidth you’re concerned about will get hogged up anyway by those other solutions moving 1080p video across the Internet. And guess what? It's the same Internet through which 720p and SD flows too. So if this really is a big domestic bandwidth issue, it comes along with or without Apple launching an :apple:TV. And if the reason to stick with 720p & SD is to deliver a great experience for average (bandwidth) users, the bandwidth that somewhat works now is going to get swallowed up anyway as others eat it with bigger streams of stuff like 1080p.

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This gets me thinking; could Apple ever come up with a successful video game console for the living room? Hmmmmm...

Some people think that this is exactly that. An app store would bring it: iOS-quality games on the big screen. The challenges to the concept is more about the controllers for which, NO, iDevices will not be great controllers for all kinds of games (because you need to feel the buttons while watching the action on the big screen).

But some foresee bluetooth controllers or even, maybe (hopefully) a normalized USB port(s) which could then open the door to app store apps that are a combination of hardware & software. Not only would that make all kinds of gaming controller attachments readily possible, but it would also open up the potential for other niche functionality such as- say- Elgato bringing their DVR hardware+software to the :apple:TV. There's a segment that definitely want this one little box to also be a DVR. There's another segment that would like this little box to also double as a BD player too. Some form of hardware expansion flexibility (like normalized USB) and an app store could bring that to market. Those kinds of things wouldn't be forced on everyone; but those that want that stuff would have a wait to get it.

One of the big attractions to the app store concept is the opportunity for others to do what Apple doesn’t seem to want to do (or maybe can't do in exchange for having content deals with Studios). Or maybe Apple really does see it as a hobby, so an app store might let those that feel more passionate about it's potential bring out some of that added potential.

Look no further than the jailbreaking crowd who work so hard to squeeze a little more out of it in unendorsed ways. Just think what could happen with a real app store.

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It's 1080p but the bit rate isn't that high. It will look just fine via the apple tv

What is the bit rate for iPhone 4S 1080p video? And how do you know that?
 
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MKV of course is from torrents.

Not necessarily - MakeMKV rips blu-rays to .mkv quite nicely to allow network access to your blu-ray content.
It creates hugh files, and quite frankly, a 1gig .mp4 conversion is just about as good as an 6GB .mkv for most viewing I do.

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Yeah, I never understood some company's like Apple and their 1 for 1 policy, e.g., $100 = £100. Someone needs to buy Apple a currency converter. There's an app for that ;)

It's called maximizing profit. As long as people in UKoGBaNI pay it, they'll do it.
 
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Wake me up when Apple adds 2 USB host ports, MiniDisplayPort and have it running OS X with a mouse and keyboard *yawn*

Have it manufactured in Brazil and advertise it heavily in South America, Africa and India at $100. As it runs XCode and those dudes start sending in Apps, you've fixed the world a bit.
 
We are older parents and Apple TV is essential in our house. I have a server with rapidly shrinking drive space because of the amount of TV and movies we have acquired. We do not subscribe to cable or satellite and haven't for over a year. Our tv viewing is exclusively ATV2 with netflix and youtube on the side. No hobby here.

Only problem is the remote. We now have to be about a foot in front of the unit in order for it to work. Kind of annoying.

If you have iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch download remote app.
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/remote/id284417350?mt=8

I have the same issues with the crappy metal remote that ATV2 comes with, but the remote app works nicely.
 
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Wake me up when Apple adds 2 USB host ports, MiniDisplayPort and have it running OS X with a mouse and keyboard *yawn*

Have it manufactured in Brazil and advertise it heavily in South America, Africa and India at $100. As it runs XCode and those dudes start sending in Apps, you've fixed the world a bit.

A mouse and keyboard for a TV only device... BRILLIANT! You've sure thought this through.

Oh, and what you're proposing exists. It's called a mac mini. Just not for $100, which is beyond unrealistic outside of magic-land.
 
A mouse and keyboard for a TV only device... BRILLIANT! You've sure thought this through.

Oh, and what you're proposing exists. It's called a mac mini. Just not for $100, which is beyond unrealistic outside of magic-land.

He's upset that a Mac Mini costs $599. But it is typical Apple. You can get the crippled thing for $99, or pay 6x for a decent media center PC. Now what if Apple introduced a Mac Mini for $299?
 
I'll be happy just to get more 720p content on the Australian iTunes store. Apple still wants us to pay more for less-than-DVD quality.
 
OK, Apple, what about this:
:apple:TV 3rd generation. Apple A6 CPU, 1080p, App Store, Bluetooth-keyboard (let's be honest, you can't search using the remote or make everyone buy an iOS-device to use remote) and TV-show-subscriptions. The last one will be the hardest one to acquire, but if there is one company who can do it, it's gonna be Apple.

In my part of Norway 25/25 mbit/s is quite normal as a lot of fibre cables has been built. If Apple can provide a way for me to watch TV-shows when aired in the US for a reasonable price(same price as the season packs on iTunes already?), I will gladly cut off torrent-downloading and start paying up. At the moment I don't pay anything for the shows I watch, and the reason is simply that I don't wanna wait till it gets released in Norway. There's actually no way for me to pay for something like that. Just understand me right here Apple, I don't wanna rent the TV-shows. Like with the music on iTunes, I want to own it!

Dream scenario: Subscription on all my favorite TV-shows availabe on all my :apple:-devices. I can watch it on the bus, on the train, on my big-ass TV, and the episodes mark themselves as "watched" whenever I watch them on either of them. Everything without thinking or remembering to download them when released. It should just work like podcasts do today.
 
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Apple Television? I just can't see Apple in the actual TV business (physical LCD/Plasma/OLED Televisions). It makes more sense for Apple to license this one bit of tech to TV makers instead of getting into the business themselves. It is one of those low margin games I don't see Apple chasing. Also takes up huge inventory space. But license tech to have Sony/LG/Sharp TVs with Apple TV inside would give them presence/profits with no inventory/margin issues.
I agree. I don't believe Apple would go into the TV-business. What I think is that Apple will buy Sony, cooperate heavily and integrate AppleTV, Sony TVs and Playstation 4. I don't think Apple is competing with consoles directly just yet. They provide a totally different gaming-experience.
The "problem" with App Store on the Apple TV is that they would have to price it higher because of storage. It's not Apple's business model to provide memory card slots or USB-based storage to store Apps on. Maybe a low-cost AppleTV with 8GB storage for $149 or $199?
 
This (the current one can play 1080p) has been posted many times before. However, as I understand it, while the A4 is powerful enough to decode 1080p files pretty well, there is a hardware limitation built in that sends downconverted 720p to the HDTV. I've been challenged on this again and again (mostly by the jailbreaking crowd who believe their's is pushing 1080p from this box to their TV) but no one has ever been able to point me to any information that absolutely shares that 1080p is leaving the box and arriving at the TV... even jailbroken.

You're right, the ATV2 can not under any circumstances output 1080p -- it's unlikely that it ever will; it certainly never has.
 
Love my Apple TV

They will have to pry my Apple TV out of my cold, dead hands, and better not touch it a minute sooner.
 
A5 inclusion? This is a very large chip. They need to wait for an A5 die shrink before they could put it in a $99 device.
You had me up to this point. Are you saying the A5 is too big or too expensive? If you're saying it's too big, how have they managed to fit it in a phone?

I would pay more for an Apple TV with A5/1080p support. Definitely.
 
You can use USA iTunes even from Any Country on the Globe, you just need to use USA iTunes Gift Card / Certificate instead of using your local credit card. There are many places where you can buy such gift certificates online, best I know is 4saleusa american website. You do not have to be in USA to use USA iTunes Store or Apple TV.

Don't even need that to create an account - just d/l a free app and don't put in a CC or non-US address.
Once you've done that, you can buy and use GC to pay. Apple accepts paypal - anyone tried using paypal in the US from a non-US location? Or vice versa? (I have friends in Europe I'd like to give them to as gifts).
 
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You had me up to this point. Are you saying the A5 is too big or too expensive? If you're saying it's too big, how have they managed to fit it in a phone?

He means it's too big, but not to big to fit physically in the Apple TV, but too big to produce cheap enough to make profit when selling the Apple TV for $99. CPUs becomes a lot cheaper when they can build them smaller.
 
I'd be happy if they fix the current ATV. My YouTube subscription channels never load, and judging from the similar complaints all over the web I am not alone.
 
I agree. I don't believe Apple would go into the TV-business. What I think is that Apple will buy Sony, cooperate heavily and integrate AppleTV, Sony TVs and Playstation 4. I don't think Apple is competing with consoles directly just yet. They provide a totally different gaming-experience.

That would be a disaster - the two cultures would never mix and there is no reason for Apple to buy a company when they can make the same things if they want. That said - I can't see apple going into the TV business - not only is it low margin but the replacement cycle is far too long. They'd wind up with multiple generations of Apple TV's to support; customers who are upset their $1000+ TV won't work with the latest games / apps because it is 2-3 years old; and don't control the product design and user experience like they can with their own product. As the late SJ would say "it's a big bag of hurt."

I doubt Apple would license it as well - every license arrangement, starting with the Apple ][ series, has ended badly. Apple simply does not have it in their DNA to let other's mess with their toys. If they did license Apple TV, they still wind up with all the hurt I've described in the first paragraph.

Finally, there is no reason to stop making it standalone - people are accustomed to that already with set-top boxes, Tivo, etc - this is just a different box. One thing I thnk Apple should figure out how to do is implement the mCard standard so it could replace the set-top box as well;but I doubt they will.

The "problem" with App Store on the Apple TV is that they would have to price it higher because of storage. It's not Apple's business model to provide memory card slots or USB-based storage to store Apps on. Maybe a low-cost AppleTV with 8GB storage for $149 or $199?

No problem - Apple views Apple TV as part of an eco-system; not a stand alone device. They can just add the ability to load an app from a Mac/PC/Time capsule and go from there. With fast networking and relatively small App size it would not be that hard to do;

With memory pricing dropping they could even add some more onboard flash storage and keep frequently used / last used / large apps there for faster load times. You wouldn't need a lot - even 1GB would suffice or even 512MB.

Now, I really wish Apple had bought Skype - turn the ATV into a phone hub that connects iPhones/Ipads/iPods via bluetooth or network and make them all phone extensions for Skype calls. Add a wireless phone jack device and even regular cordless phones could be used.
 
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On a personal scale, those dealing with ISP bandwidth caps and costs would still be able to do what those facing the same issues with 720p downloads now do: choose smaller options. If 1080p files are added to the iTunes store, I'm confident 720p and SD options will remain there too. For those with bandwidth concerns such that they are willing to compromise on resolution maximums, they just choose the 720p or SD version... exactly as they do now.
The issue is not an individual costs, but who gets the money form streamed content. If caps limit 1080p uptake, there is little incentive to create it and make it available. You've essentially choked off growth beyond what we have now. That's the idea - hold the pipe hostage until you get the content providers to share the revenue - essentially paying the ISP to deliver their content. ISP's are already moving into the content arena - because that's where the money is. Once they can get the content providers to agree on revenue sharing; bandwidth issues will magically disappear and they will make the investments to ensure the large data size content gets delivered - because every byte translate to money for them.

Caps also are a way around net neutrality - sure will give you the same access to our network as we do ourselves - but you'll only get a limited slice of the pie.


Of course, the consumer will pay of this in the end.

Sure, you can say the ISP's are behaving like ******s; but remember - if the ****** decides to limit the flow the rest of the body shuts down until the problem is solved.
 
That would be a disaster - the two cultures would never mix and there is no reason for Apple to buy a company when they can make the same things if they want. That said - I can't see apple going into the TV business - not only is it low margin but the replacement cycle is far too long. They'd wind up with multiple generations of Apple TV's to support; customers who are upset their $1000+ TV won't work with the latest games / apps because it is 2-3 years old; and don't control the product design and user experience like they can with their own product. As the late SJ would say "it's a big bag of hurt."

Disaster? Business analysts seem to disagree with you. But, I guess if you say it would be a disaster then it will be. Buying a company doesn't necessarily mean any change for either of the companies, other than Apple could help invest money in projects for sony. Not a disaster in my mind. Sony could use some big cash for a period of time.

One of the main reasons that this is good for Apple is that they could control all of Sony's movie productions and use as incentives for pushing out better agreements on iTunes video streaming/renting/buying.
 
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I still have my first-gen AppleTV with an aftermarket 320 GB hard drive, and don't plan to upgrade until there is a true 1080p version.

They could introduce an HD+ version of the ATV with the A5 processor and price it at $149 or $199, however, those prices aren't competitive with the Roku and they would need to offer a "killer app" to justify the price. Keep in mind that the existing 8 GB of flash memory on the present ATV may not be enough for the cache system for 1080p movie rentals or movies streamed from your computer. (The way I understand the ATV2, if you play a movie from your computer, it attempts to cache the entire movie on its 8 GB of flash storage.)
 
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