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Windows runs on a Xeon co-processor

Morky said:
From IBM's eServer 520 product page:

Delivering a breakthrough in infrastructure simplification, the 520 is capable of running i5/OS, Microsoft™ Windows™, Linux, and AIX® 5L applications simultaneously on a single server and can integrate IBM..

The 520 is a Power5-based system. It appears to be some kind of very low level emulation capable of running the x86 instruction set at nearly full speed.

Not quite, the IXS/IXA are IBM xSeries ("x" means Intel) servers that are integrated with the POWER5 iSeries. IXS is an internal co-processor, IXA uses a separate Intel box.

Integrated xSeries Server for iSeries

The Integrated xSeries Server features a 1.6 GHz Intel Xeon processor with 512 KB L2 cache, a 400 MHz front side bus (FSB), and an on-board 10/100 Mbps Ethernet controller and 4 USB ports.

The Integrated xSeries Adapter is a PCI adapter that connects xSeries servers to the iSeries HSL bus, and provides the server vitual storage and Ethernet. The Integrated xSeries Adapter is supported with a range of xSeries servers, including the x235, x255, x360, and x440.
 
visor said:
I've just again messed around a bit with the virtual pc.
horribly slow, really - esp. on an ibook with only 768MB Ram.
running wndows natively in a window would be quite a trick.

It will NOT make Windows run natively on your Mac. Who said the new PPC would be able to execute x86 code????
 
JW Pepper said:
Don't you think Microsoft would love to give people the "Choice" of loading Windows onto their Apple. Apple needs control of the OS to ensure constant revenue. If people load windows on their Macs revenue goes to MS instead of Apple.

People will do it, I know it doesn't make sense but they would. Whole offices could be forced to "Upgrade" to Windows... no I can't see Steve wanting to go down that path.


Not at all. Apple is a hardware company. They make money off the OS, sure, and they make less money if someone completely replaced Mac OS X with Windows (.Mac, updates, etc), but they still make profit just selling the Mac.

Furthermore, I doubt anyone in their right mind would buy a Mac and install ONLY Windows. It'd more likely be dual boot, OS X and Windows PPC.
 
ZildjianKX said:
Who said anything about running Windows? You really think Microsoft would release a PPC build of Windows? Keep dreaming. The closest thing we'll get is whatever Microsoft OS they are putting on the Xbox 2 G5 dev kits...

The 2nd OS that it is running would have to a Linux flavor.

Doesn't Microsoft already have a Windows NT 4.0 for PowerPC CPUs?

Granted it's not up-to-date, but it should be sufficient to run most of the "windows-only" applications out there.
 
I agree that the big focus will be, Linux/OS X, 100% :cool:, I like the idea, WWDC 06?, now it's getting clear why IBM sold the PC unit, there must be a bigger game behind, I can see a big order from universities, research people... now if the program I use would run on OS X... :mad:
 
I'd like us to start putting out deliverable quantities of 2.5 chips and a 3.0 before we fiddle with this stuff, personally.

*shrug*
 
Yvan256 said:
Doesn't Microsoft already have a Windows NT 4.0 for PowerPC CPUs?

Granted it's not up-to-date, but it should be sufficient to run most of the "windows-only" applications out there.

Enough with the Windows talk already! Microsoft will NOT make Windows run on Mac because:

Why should they? Didn't Apple have only a 2% piece of the market share?

While there is an NT4 port, it's really worthless. Because after NT4 they dropped multi platform support entirely. This means modern versions are much more stuck to x86. It would need a HUGE amount of labour to get the old NT4 code up to par with XP. And if they were to bring Windows to the Mac, they would never ever just rerelease an old piece of software like NT4 - without the update to XP level.

All this is pointless anyway, because even if there was a port, it would not mean x86 windows software would run on the PPC port. Developers would have to port their applications to make Win-on-Mac a succes. Again, 2% market share and a lot of work. By the way, this was probably the reason Microsoft dropped NT on any other platform than x86.

Also, don't forget PPC != Mac. The NT4 PPC port never ran on Apple hardware.

And this multiple-OS'es-sumultaneously feature doesn't change any of this.
 
Ysean said:
You'd be surprised how little assembly is actually in NT and it's variants. I remember talking to a Microsoft VP back in the mid 90's when we were beta testing NT 4.0. It was mentioned most of the OS was written in C and just the extremely low-level routines (routines which would befinit the overall OS the most, like the disk & memory access routines) were coded in assembly. I don't know. Personally, I'd believe a VP for the company than some random person on the net. (No offense intended.)

No offense taken. My understanding of the amount of assembly in NT stems largely from interviews with MS Windows and Office developers in 1995, which I hold as slightly more likely to be accurate than a VP, but be that as it may.

When I say the "core" operating system, it is precisely those high-performance areas (memory management, disk management, file system, threading, GDI, etc) which I am talking about. I don't think it matters much whether "Notebook.exe" is written in C or Visual Basic or Fortran; the "hard" stuff, the MS company jewels (especially the GDI), was at least at that point overwhelmingly assembly. It's easier for Microsoft to re-write the code in a portable way (preserving the grandfathered-in bugs) than for someone else, of course, but it's not a project that writes itself, and it's also not likely to be a performance-neutral project either.
 
jettredmont said:
No offense taken. My understanding of the amount of assembly in NT stems largely from interviews with MS Windows and Office developers in 1995, which I hold as slightly more likely to be accurate than a VP, but be that as it may.

When I say the "core" operating system, it is precisely those high-performance areas (memory management, disk management, file system, threading, GDI, etc) which I am talking about. I don't think it matters much whether "Notebook.exe" is written in C or Visual Basic or Fortran; the "hard" stuff, the MS company jewels (especially the GDI), was at least at that point overwhelmingly assembly. It's easier for Microsoft to re-write the code in a portable way (preserving the grandfathered-in bugs) than for someone else, of course, but it's not a project that writes itself, and it's also not likely to be a performance-neutral project either.
The last update I heard on this project was the effort to rewrite the vast majority of Windows, if not all of it, in .NET managed code for the release of Longhorn - this in part is what's taking so long for Microsoft to get Longhorn out the door.
 
AmigoMac said:
I agree that the big focus will be, Linux/OS X, 100% :cool:, I like the idea, WWDC 06?, now it's getting clear why IBM sold the PC unit, there must be a bigger game behind, I can see a big order from universities, research people... now if the program I use would run on OS X... :mad:

Personally, I don't believe Apple would do anything with Linux. They chose FreeBSD a long time ago. And, unless they would create some kind of x86 emulation layer, they would only be able to make PPC Linux binaries run on/alongside Mac OS X. That's pretty useless. It doesn't justify the cost.

And like I said before, Mac OS X is a great UNIX based platform. It would be much better to port (Linux) applications to Mac OS X natively, which is already done a lot.

I consider Mac OS X and the whole Apple attitude to be a competition to Linux. I see a lot of Linux users getting interested in OSX. THAT is what Apple wants, and nothing like the other way round.
 
Hardware company?

Is Apple really a hardware company? I think it is in transition to just as much a software company. Look at OS X, iLife, FCP, Logic, Safari, Keynote, iTunes, Motion, etc. I wish Apple would do even more software and I think they are/will. They do both hardware and software and by being good at integrating both, they are more then the sum of their parts.

If one builds hardware, they get the profit on one machine, and then have to go build another machine for the next bit of profit. But with software, you do the work once, and sell it over and over without having to do the work again. This is a much more profitable business model. Just look at Microsoft.

People think iTunes and the online music store is to sell more iPods. For now yes, but I believe it is primarily to grab the online music business. Once Apple has driven all other online music stores out of business, why not let others build the iPod thing, scraping for profits in a commodity world like PC makers, and Apple rakes in the dough with licenses fees. Apple will continue selling hardware as long as it makes sense but they COULD just as easily become a software and services company.

By doing both hardware and software, Apple can create great solutions that truely are greater then the sum of their parts. I don't want product; I want solutions. That is the key. It is not a hardware company verses software company; it is a great solutions company.

I wish Apple would create or buy out all the apps I use on my Mac. By having entry level software free on their machines and pro level apps at cheap prices, add that to the total cost of ownership and Apple is able to beat Microsoft because MS can't compete with Apple because they are a monopoly and they would get dragged into court pretty fast.

Once Apple has all the apps (and a decent amount of games) why not let others do the hardware. There is nothing wrong with clones as long as Apple made sure they were certified. Why clones were wrong for Apple in the past is because Apple did not have much software. An OS is not enough. Just ask Jobs with NeXt and think about BeOS. But with Apps and software and services - now your talking.

As Apple grows its software, they should bring back the clones. How many people would love to see a headless mac? Apple might not do it but you know the clones would. Apple would benefit by profits on their OS and software. They also could put their OS on multiple CPUs to prevent a dependency like they had with Motorola.

So, I don't see Apple as just a hardware company. I see them as a solutions company and for right now that means hardware, software, and services. In the future, I could see them becoming less dependent on hardware. I think it would be for the best for Apple and us.
 
MacNeXT, or MacClueLess?

MacNeXT said:
While there is an NT4 port, it's really worthless. Because after NT4 they dropped multi platform support entirely. This means modern versions are much more stuck to x86.

This is about as wrong as you could possibly be!!

Right now you can get Windows for:


  • x86 32-bit - Windows XP, Windows Server 2003 (Intel/AMD, in 32-bit mode)
  • IA64 (Itanium) Windows Server (XP for IA64 has been available, but withdrawn when HP stopped IA64 workstation sales)
  • x86_64 (Xeon EM64T, Opteron, Athlon 64) XP-64 - available for a free download
  • x86_64 Windows Server - free download, and free upgrade to 64-bit when released if you buy 32-bit today

Did you know that Windows 2000 64-bit on Alpha went to internal beta testing?

Did you know that much of the IA64 support was developed on Alpha systems? (MS could buy 64-bit Alphas from Digital and do development while they waited for IA64 prototype systems.)

Did you know that the "performance critical hardware dependent" parts of Windows are isolated in a component called the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) - so that all the hand-tuned architecture-specific code is in one single module? (In other words, the stuff that really needs to be in assembly language in in one small place.)

Did you know that Windows CE (and the Visual Studio .NET tools needed to build it) supports ARM, PPC, and SH in addition to x86? (http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/usewinemb/ce/supproc/default.aspx)

In addition to the three supported architectures for the full NT-based systems, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that MS does regular builds of the PPC, MIPS and Alpha code streams. I know that they built the Alpha stream long after Alpha support was dropped (they didn't have Itanium systems for testing, they had to use Alpha for 64-bit development). It would be entirely in character for that development group to continue to do regular builds against those targets, however, just to make sure that no x86 dependencies showed up in the high level code.

To claim that NT is "stuck to x86" is one of the most ignorant statements that one could make. Doing platform independence right was one of the "job 1" goals with NT. The core development team certainly had learned that lesson the hard way...
 
IBM only sold its consumer pc department, its main focus is now on server and R&D. With the multi-OS on the POWER chip, this really benefits server users as far as home users go its not really need. When IBM stated that Apple was interested they never said for which line, I would say the Apple server line.

This chip might have the multi-OS capabilities activated for the Apple Server and PMG5 and deactivated on the rest of the line. Since I know some Mult-Media Companies run multiple OS in they studios and having to get rid of an x86 box and only have a Mac box running OS X and Linux is a great cost advantage.

I see no use for this in an iMac, eMac and the notebook line.

Only Server and PM lineup. And to activate the multiple OS it will be integrated into EXPOSE, the system will allow you to booth one or all OSes on the system and by hitting one button you can enter the various OS environment and hit the next button to enter another OS environment. :)

So when are dual-core POWER chips making it way into Apple's line-up.

by the way it would seem more logical for the XBOX 2 to use a dual core G5 chip to keep cost down rather than a 2 physical chips. :)
 
Is this the chip?

One of my IT guys gave me this image today.
 

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More food for Apple Marketing bluffs + IBM trying to be intel!

Lot has been said for now! Virtualization is pretty much a way of selling your hardware to a guy who is already hooked on some one else's hardware + software... like IBM had virtualization of solaris for power4. That is pretty much each vendor trying to go for the clients of other! Apple really does not fit this profile. Their exclusiveness(ie. Mr. Jobs ego) would be hurt. But there is one reason why apple would encorporate it in to even an ibook! Because apple wants to position itself as a democratized super computing verndor. Simply to show off and ofcourse bump/justify the exhorbitant cost of the hardware. Any one remember G5 -supercomputer to the desktop crap? there is no logical use of it! As a Second OS :We donot have windows or solaris and ibm would not give you AIX for free (and would not like its profitability slip away!)... and apple would not let any one make software for them! so at the worst case you have linux/freebsd; according to apple they donot want it as it competes with the X implementation they have. Apple will manage to use these stuff in some small stupid way and make a huge cry about why we need it desperately! If IBM dumped pcs it is just because they just could not handle it properly. people will stop paying you premium on your brand if it is not justifiable. I would doubt if IBM will even dare to dump Xeon/Opteron or windows, that will surely drive them to oblivion. IBM definitely has intel envy! Power every where, is IBM trying to be intel!- from embedded to mainframes. IBM does understand that they cannot just be a mainframe company (remember sun any one? IBM is even worse with no good OS!).. They do need volumes. they just want to have the advantages of volume sales with out much over head! = intel, just sell the chip and you donot have to worry about the every td&h regarding support. I think pretty sure that IBM is definitely having a wet dream of rerunning INTEL-DELL (+MS) success with IBM-Apple(+Linux)...

A proper port of Solaris (the best OS.. period.) being available for X86-32/64-IA/64 is all the scientific (or any) comunity needs and if it is free... It is my dream come true.. Finally.
 
Can I have one PowerPC computer, with two screens, two keyboards, two mice, running two copies of OSX, with each of two users thinking they are the sole users of the computer? I can think of situations where that would be useful, and would justify buying one larger computer rather than two smaller ones, with each user getting more power when they need it. (As long as they don't both need the extra power at the same moment)
 
ipodmann:

I could care less. All the news I am interested in is knowing when the next 3.5ghz chip will ship. From what read it sounds like a full year. IBM is no different than Motorola.
Heh, they might even be progressing more slowly. :) But thats OK cause everyone else got stuck in the mud too. That's just how it is these days.

GFLPraxis:

HOW THE HECK DO YOU RUN TWO OSes? Wouldn't the GUIs conflict??? Will there be a keyboard command to bring the other OS to the front or something?
Yeah, either the hardware is partitioned outside the view of the OS's, or the OS's must be able to ignore unshareable parts of the system. The video card is a prime example of something your not gona share without a lot of software work.
 
DavidCar said:
Can I have one PowerPC computer, with two screens, two keyboards, two mice, running two copies of OSX, with each of two users thinking they are the sole users of the computer? I can think of situations where that would be useful, and would justify buying one larger computer rather than two smaller ones, with each user getting more power when they need it. (As long as they don't both need the extra power at the same moment)

You donot need virtualization & 2 CPUs for that! just a decent motherboard! look at this..

http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20041119/index.html
 
"Careful of what you wish.... you just might get it" - King Nothing(Load)-Metallica

twillis said:
I wish Apple would create or buy out all the apps I use on my Mac. By having entry level software free on their machines and pro level apps at cheap prices, add that to the total cost of ownership and Apple is able to beat Microsoft because MS can't compete with Apple because they are a monopoly and they would get dragged into court pretty fast.

Once Apple has all the apps (and a decent amount of games) why not let others do the hardware. There is nothing wrong with clones as long as Apple made sure they were certified. Why clones were wrong for Apple in the past is because Apple did not have much software.

:p You want apple to turn out into a Microsoft + with the added advantage of all the software + hardware+ ....etc + oh btw may be your soul? :D Dude wake up and get over it apple is not a hero and MS is not a villain in your fairy tale!
 
Apple and Microsoft

I know the saying goes

"power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Therefore, many people think if Apple could get the majority share, they would be just like Microsoft.

I don't know. Maybe, but maybe not. Gates and Jobs are different and very complex people. They are also surrounded by many other gifted people, some evil, some nice, some both. Hard to say what would happen.

What I posted is what I would do if I were running Apple. I truely think Apple can win and win big. I think MS has its hands tied because it is a monopoly. Apple should exploit this. iTunes is a good thing. Apple should add more services, more iPod devices, and more software.

What if Adobe decided they were not going to make their software for Mac OS anymore? What if Gates offered them a big payout to make it happen? Adobe could claim to be ticked over FCP or something. Maybe Gates wants Premiere to go head-to-head with Apple's FCP. What would Apple do? See why Apple needs their own software?

Apple users would also suffer from the above scenerio. I haven't sold my soul to Adobe but we do use their software. If they discountined their Apple stuff it would hit my business hard. I would lose money and time invested in Photoshop and Illustrator software for myself and my employees. I have a lot of money in Adobe hardware and software and wish I could be sure they are going to be healthy for a long while. Same for Apple.

Right now, Apple is providing me the best solutions for many of my IT needs. I have 9 PowerMacs, 2 Xserves, 4 Xraids, 3 PCs, and a ton of audio, video, and other electronic gear. Apple is the right tool for many of my computer needs. The PCs meet the rest of my needs. However, the Apple tools work so much better than the PC tools. This is not just some theoretical opinion, it is based on years of work with computers of all kinds. Since Apple solutions perform so well for me, it is logical to wish they could meet more of my needs and that I wish them stability.

Any time one app becomes the only major app in a catagory on an OS, it can be held hostage. This applies to CPUs too, a la Motorola. Apple need to protect itself.

Of course MS is not going to take all this lying down. They will have to innovate or die. They will probably get their act together and we will have good stuff coming out of Redmond. Again, we the end user benefits.

In a way, the Apple vs. Microsoft debate parallels forms of government. Apple is more a dictator model and the PC is more democratic. As long as the dictator is wise and kind, the dictator model wins hands down for simplicity, efficiency, and unity. If democracy is tried by a bunch of selfish greedy fools, it will fail miserably.

The opposite is true too. If a dictator is greedy and sloppy, the people suffer. If the citizens of a democracy are kind and wise, it will work out quite well. (To complete the picture, open source is socialism. We'll see where that one ends up.)

The morale - it is not the form of government that determines which government is best, it is the people in the government and the actions of those people. Applied to the computer world, we should not attack Apple or MS because of the form, but the actions of the people within the system.

I have seen MS abuse its power with monopoly practice. I have seen Apple suffer from bad decisions. I have also seen Apple do some amazing work and have seen much good in the PC side. So the net results are mixed. I have not sold my soul to either side. I just want a functioning government, so to speak, so I can go about my life and work. Right now, I think Jobs and company are on a roll, would like to see them get their market share to 50% and see amazing product coming out of both sides.

I want Apple to be a demagoge and be a good one. But I also want the freedom to walk away to an equally good PC democracy side too. What I really don't want is both sides launching missles at each other, attempting to win the business war, and we the people get nuked.
 
jettredmont said:
No offense taken. My understanding of the amount of assembly in NT stems largely from interviews with MS Windows and Office developers in 1995, which I hold as slightly more likely to be accurate than a VP, but be that as it may.

When I say the "core" operating system, it is precisely those high-performance areas (memory management, disk management, file system, threading, GDI, etc) which I am talking about. I don't think it matters much whether "Notebook.exe" is written in C or Visual Basic or Fortran; the "hard" stuff, the MS company jewels (especially the GDI), was at least at that point overwhelmingly assembly. It's easier for Microsoft to re-write the code in a portable way (preserving the grandfathered-in bugs) than for someone else, of course, but it's not a project that writes itself, and it's also not likely to be a performance-neutral project either.


Agreed. But, on a whole, my understanding is that the primary work is with those routines sense they are the most platform dependent. This was how MS supported multiple platforms for NT. And I don't believe the instruction set for PPC has changed any since then. It would largely be *relatively* small changes to the higher language code. Much easier, much quicker and much more friendly to automation.

That was my meaning. It'd be a slightly different story if the routines has to be created from scratch for a platform. But the code base is already available to MS and has been for more than a decade.
 
Spidermanjohn said:
One of my IT guys gave me this image today.

That's what is called a chip package by IBM. It contains 4 processors. The other 4 chips would be L3 cache.
 
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