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Well, I remembered how Apple preached how Intel was such an inferior CPU in their Ads compared to G# CPU and they had the whole Apple community echoing their statement--forums like Mac Forum was filled with this stuff. And this was happening right until they switched to Intel. Now you guys are eating crow!

It doesn't need to be MS...Sony, NBC, Bungie, anybody who goes against the Apple's movement is enemy number one.

But when Apple is hypocritical or does something bad its looked over, because this is their forum(in a sense). Fan boys of anything are blind to other opinions and rarely if ever corrected unless they come out of the safe place which is an area where only there opinion exists.

Also I don't think the corner stone of why to do something or why you think something is better should be "Because I think it sucks". It should be why it is good.
 
thats a narrow minded view. What if they released something ground breaking that left os x in the dust

If Microsoft released something that left OS X in the dust I would be very VERY HAPPY. I don't know how many machines I'd buy that I'd wish Apple would have made... let me see.

(1) Sony 11.1" laptop with 7.5 hours of battery
(2) HP Blackbird
(3) Alienware 17" laptop with dual HDD and Dual GFX cards with SLI
(4) Dell M1530
(5) Any number of other PC ultra portables with a smaller than 11.1" screen

All of these just to have. :D

Well, I remembered how Apple preached how Intel was such an inferior CPU in their Ads compared to G# CPU and they had the whole Apple community echoing their statement--forums like Mac Forum was filled with this stuff. And this was happening right until they switched to Intel. Now you guys are eating crow!

It doesn't need to be MS...Sony, NBC, Bungie, anybody who goes against the Apple's movement is enemy number one.

Is that when the G5 was running circles around any Pentium Intel threw at it besides the overclocked chips that cost a fortune? I know that the G4 chips in the laptops were a joke, but the G5 blew past the Pentiums.

When Intel gave word that they were coming out with a chip that didn't suck, and actually competed with comparable AMDs Apple decided that the Power PC chips wasn't going to go anywhere for the long haul.
 
thats a narrow minded view. What if they released something ground breaking that left os x in the dust

Apple would knock it off:
FrontRow and AppleTV vs Media Center and Media Center Extenders
Spotlight and Virtual Folders vs Longhorn's Search and Organize from PDC 2003, Live Icons, Fast User Switching, Album View in iTunes

When Apple comes up with something good Microsoft knocks it off:
http://davidbrunelle.com/2007/01/23/windows-vista-instant-viewer/

Linux then apes everyone.

From the information I've collected about Windows 7 it seems to be that MS has changed their development process. Windows is now developed lock-step with Office. Many of the people responsible for the completely new UI paradigm in Office 2007 are now working on a new paradigm for Windows. In fact, the guy who ran the Office development now runs Windows development. So I'd expect Windows 7 to be released along side Office and to be on time the same way Office generally is.
Since Vista and Win2k8 laid the foundational work (WPF, Silverlight, Hypervisor, MinWin+Server Core, CoreAudio, DWM, DX10, UAC, 64-bit etc.) the next version will focus a lot on the new UI (i.e. no taskbar).

Only time will tell if they screw it up or not.
 
There's nothing wrong with loving Macs or other Apple products. But what IS stupid is the BS disparaging of products that did not come from Apple.
This thread is about the next generation of vaporware from MS. We've been through this over and over again-- because of their size, market share, resources, and brutal business practices, MS has learned that they can kill competition just by feigning entry into a market. Many here have simply been disillusioned with Redmond and react strongly to the same techniques over and over.

If you look at all the things Longhorn and Vista were meant to be, and then you look at what it is, there's a huge disparity. Some of that is lack of execution, some of that is seeding the market with "dare not oppose us" rhetoric. When a thread like this comes up, I'm not surprised in the least to see all those chickens come home to roost. They deserve it.

To the extent that their tactics work-- and they do-- the backlash needs to be big enough for them to stop. I don't understand why people always act so shocked that a Mac oriented site would be a hotbed for radical anti-Windowsism.
No, it really isn't that significant. If Apple was selling the cure to cancer, then it would be significant. But as it is, we are talking about software. Honestly not worth getting sucked into destructive fanboyism.
If curing cancer is the benchmark, then "destructive" must mean that the so-called fanboys are causing cancer, which I also don't see...

I actually do think the loss of momentum that Vista has resulted in, and the gaining momentum by competitors, is as significant as was stated. Curing cancer? Don't know about that, but I will tell you my greatest fear is waking up in a hospital plugged into a machine with a 4 color logo and a start bar.

I do know that because so much of the world is running on Windows, that operating system has a huge impact on global productivity and quality of life. To the extent that Windows is insecure, ineffective, inefficient, and unpleasant, everything that depends on it takes on those characteristics to some extent.
thats a narrow minded view. What if they released something ground breaking that left os x in the dust
Then they'd have to wait for the next generation. For me, it would take a good 10-15 years of Windows products leaving their competitors in the dust for me to really trust it again, and a major top-to-bottom shake up in management to convince me that the changes were here to stay.

You reap what you sow-- and in Redmond's case they've sown a couple decades of mediocre products and "it doesn't matter because the world needs us" attitude.
The way I see it, Apple provides equipment for a small number of average and slightly above average users. While Microsoft is challenged with delivering products for the masses. That 93% varies widely as to their needs and jobs that need a computer with just as diverse as their needs and jobs. Apple caters to the average Jane and Joe graphic designer and consumer, which is fine, and a lot of the appeal of a Mac IMHO. The pro models do a wonderful job at giving pro users what they need and the same goes for the consumer stuff.
I think you're giving credit to MS for the work of 3rd party devs. There's nothing in OS X that precludes it from meeting the needs of the highest or lowest end of users. You might see more Windows machines meeting those needs, but it's almost always because they're using applications written by others-- not because there's some unique feature of the OS.
Microsoft and PC makers have to cater to that same group and everyone else, every other niche market out there, hence the larger market share. If Apple wanted to capture the world with Mac OS X they won't do it on 3 desktops and 2 laptop, most of which are just a variation on the other model. The iPhone is a good example of Apple catering to the average user, not the power user or the guy/gal that needs a certain feature. They just gave us what they thought was acceptable and millions drank the cool-aid and bought one. While the others sat back and thought, "Is this really all they could do?"
The breadth of the product line is a direct result of market size. If Apple were selling 10 times as many machines, they could afford a few additional models, but as it stands they maximize their economies of scale and reduce their configuration headaches to best serve the parts of the market they think they can most aggressively move into.

Same goes with the iPhone. They broke into the market by putting out a single phone they could sell world wide. With success, you can expect to see it's product matrix look more like the iPods where you've got half a dozen different models targeted at different user profiles.
Microsoft has problems because it's open to everyone, and is the same reason why a lot of people are jumping ship to the Mac. They don't need to program custom software and leave ports open for servers, they just want to organize photos, edit family videos and what not. The Mac works for the same reason, it's closed off to everyone sans Apple techs and some 3rd party devos. That's the same reason why the iPhone sucks for businesses, and why there is much more hardware that can run Windows.

Both companies have their pros and cons because they both have different philosophies and honestly, I am starting to think that the Windows one may be slightly better, albeit the smoothness and security of Mac OS X.
I need to program custom software and leave ports open to servers, and I find OS X a far better tool for what I'm doing. It's not about openness-- so much of OS X is based on open standards that actually make it easier to integrate with and modify. If anything, MS is much more closed... Try to integrate a non-MS application with Exchange email and calendaring, for example.

This is the principle place where OS X's Unix heritage enters in-- Unix was built to be open, adaptable, and connectable. OS X has inherited that, as evidenced by the fact that almost all open source apps for Linux are easily ported to OS X. You don't see many of them in use by average users for the same reason average users don't use Linux-- the UI is typically garbage.

The differences you're describing are again about applications. People like using Macs for photos because there are some very easy-to-use applications for handling photos. I don't know why we don't see these develop for Windows-- some of it has to do with culture, I suspect.
 
Apple would knock it off:
FrontRow and AppleTV vs Media Center and Media Center Extenders
Spotlight and Virtual Folders vs Longhorn's Search and Organize from PDC 2003, Live Icons, Fast User Switching, Album View in iTunes

When Apple comes up with something good Microsoft knocks it off:
http://davidbrunelle.com/2007/01/23/windows-vista-instant-viewer/

Linux then apes everyone.

From the information I've collected about Windows 7 it seems to be that MS has changed their development process. Windows is now developed lock-step with Office. Many of the people responsible for the completely new UI paradigm in Office 2007 are now working on a new paradigm for Windows. In fact, the guy who ran the Office development now runs Windows development. So I'd expect Windows 7 to be released along side Office and to be on time the same way Office generally is.
Since Vista and Win2k8 laid the foundational work (WPF, Silverlight, Hypervisor, MinWin+Server Core, CoreAudio, DWM, DX10, UAC, 64-bit etc.) the next version will focus a lot on the new UI (i.e. no taskbar).

Only time will tell if they screw it up or not.
Great... Does this mean that while OS X keeps looking more and more like iTunes, Windows is going to look more and more like Office?
 
I think you're giving credit to MS for the work of 3rd party devs. There's nothing in OS X that precludes it from meeting the needs of the highest or lowest end of users. You might see more Windows machines meeting those needs, but it's almost always because they're using applications written by others-- not because there's some unique feature of the OS.
The breadth of the product line is a direct result of market size. If Apple were selling 10 times as many machines, they could afford a few additional models, but as it stands they maximize their economies of scale and reduce their configuration headaches to best serve the parts of the market they think they can most aggressively move into.

Same goes with the iPhone. They broke into the market by putting out a single phone they could sell world wide. With success, you can expect to see it's product matrix look more like the iPods where you've got half a dozen different models targeted at different user profiles.
I need to program custom software and leave ports open to servers, and I find OS X a far better tool for what I'm doing. It's not about openness-- so much of OS X is based on open standards that actually make it easier to integrate with and modify. If anything, MS is much more closed... Try to integrate a non-MS application with Exchange email and calendaring, for example.

This is the principle place where OS X's Unix heritage enters in-- Unix was built to be open, adaptable, and connectable. OS X has inherited that, as evidenced by the fact that almost all open source apps for Linux are easily ported to OS X. You don't see many of them in use by average users for the same reason average users don't use Linux-- the UI is typically garbage.

The differences you're describing are again about applications. People like using Macs for photos because there are some very easy-to-use applications for handling photos. I don't know why we don't see these develop for Windows-- some of it has to do with culture, I suspect.

Very well said. I would have to agree. Damn I love a good conversation that actually adds insight and thought to the forums.

If Apple is keeping their lineup tight to fit the market they are serve, then the growing marketshare could give way to a more robust hardware lineup? Maybe?

I would love to see Apple give users the headless Mac they have been whining for, and give me the 11.1" MacBook I have been whining for.
 
Very well said. I would have to agree. Damn I love a good conversation that actually adds insight and thought to the forums.

If Apple is keeping their lineup tight to fit the market they are serve, then the growing marketshare could give way to a more robust hardware lineup? Maybe?

I would love to see Apple give users the headless Mac they have been whining for, and give me the 11.1" MacBook I have been whining for.
Thanks-- it helps when there's a coherent post to respond to...

I'd guess you'll see more variety in products as market share grows. When games start porting to OS X (or enough people are running them in boot camp), and GPU makers start building a broader line of cards, you might see a headless mac with upgradeable hardware. At this point there's not much reason for it beyond boosting memory, which we can pretty much do. I just bumped memory in my mini so I could load Leopard...

When they start becoming more popular with mobile business types, I think we'll see more portable laptops as well. Indications are we'll see something this January, but it almost certainly won't be 11.1". To get to that size, they'll need to improve their market share in Asia. I'm not even aware of Windows laptops that small in this country.

To solve Evangelion's problem, Apple's going to need to break the chicken and egg dilemma of needing enough of a market to justify building a support infrastructure for enterprise customers who can't justify buying product that doesn't have a support infrastructure.

One thing we're going to have to live with for a good long while though, is having only one hardware supplier. We're not going to see niche hardware makers meeting the demands of a small market.
 
But when Apple is hypocritical or does something bad its looked over, because this is their forum(in a sense). Fan boys of anything are blind to other opinions and rarely if ever corrected unless they come out of the safe place which is an area where only there opinion exists.

Also I don't think the corner stone of why to do something or why you think something is better should be "Because I think it sucks". It should be why it is good.

You know what's actually more annoying than Apple fanboys fanboying it up while not contributing anything to the conversation? People that only post to call out "fanboy" while not contributing to the conversation. Great, I just posted only to tell you you're more annoying than those guys. Now I'm a hypocrite.
 
But when Apple is hypocritical or does something bad its looked over, because this is their forum(in a sense). Fan boys of anything are blind to other opinions and rarely if ever corrected unless they come out of the safe place which is an area where only there opinion exists.

Also I don't think the corner stone of why to do something or why you think something is better should be "Because I think it sucks". It should be why it is good.

Don't worry. You haven't been around here long enough to know that what you are saying is COMPLETELY incorrect. Not everyone here is happy with every Apple product and they call themselves fanboys/girls. '

Secondly, there is some fanboy/girl getting corrected every single day, by myself and others, and I have been corrected many times as well.

Third, most Mac users don't say Macs are better because Windows sucks, that's the short answer. We have many varied reasons and there isn't a forum with enough bandwidth to post everyones reason. To sum mine up it's the software and smoothness of the OS. If I could run Mac OS X and Mac apps on PCs I would do it. I am also very upset with Apple's current lineup of hardware but am forced to buy it.

You can come out of the box now my friend, it's okay.
 
Well, I remembered how Apple preached how Intel was such an inferior CPU in their Ads compared to G# CPU and they had the whole Apple community echoing their statement--forums like Mac Forum was filled with this stuff. And this was happening right until they switched to Intel. Now you guys are eating crow!

Nice spin on things.

In reality, PPC was significantly superior to anything Intel or AMD had in many respects - which is why Mac users were happy with them. Unfortunately, the compilers were not up to Intel's standards and IBM didn't put the money into process technology that Intel did, so they eventually fell behind. When it became clear that Intel was the better solution, Mac users accepted the switch - which supports the argument that we're simply looking for the best solution rather than being locked into one single technology.

It's really quite simple. Every Mac user I know has used both Macs and Windows - and a majority of them prefer to use the Mac. That's a conscious choice based on experience.

Windows users, OTOH, often spend a great deal of time dismissing Macs as toys or putting them down for some reason - even though they've never used them. This kind of uninformed knee-jerk reaction is what you should be criticizing, not the conscious decision based on experience that Mac users make.

But, then, if I were approaching this debate the way you are, I'd simply point out that that simply makes them all Windows fanboys.
 
I rarely post on this forum, just mostly browse. But this really p*$$es me off reading the title. It's another reason why apple keeps people on their toes with upcoming product releases by keeping their mouth shut and occasionally showing patents. When M$ just openly says one day that their next OS that will be released in like 5 years will blow away a CELL PHONE that will be 6 years old at the time, it shows how badly they run things over there.

They need to release an apple commercial that says how the next apple OS is gonna blow away windows 98.
 
Microsoft Surface Tables have been in the wild for a while now.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/microsoft/microsoft-surface-table-delayed-+-picky-customers-to-blame-321035.php

You sure?

Well, I remembered how Apple preached how Intel was such an inferior CPU in their Ads compared to G# CPU and they had the whole Apple community echoing their statement--forums like Mac Forum was filled with this stuff. And this was happening right until they switched to Intel. Now you guys are eating crow!

This is nonsense. The G3/G4 were quicker than the pentium at certain operations and beat it in many real world tests. Intel's mobile line is much better, so Apple moves with the times.

They take the best technology available. Trying to dress it up as some great moral victory for Windows enthusiasts is a lie.
 
If people disparaged products simply because they didn't come from Apple, you'd be right, Artie McStrawman. But, in reality, Mac users typically disparage inferior products wherever they come from.

It just happens that Microsoft is best at supplying inferior products.

Seriously: Am I speaking hebrew, or why is it that you guys simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND what I have been saying? What I have been saying that you guys have made claims in this thread that are quite simply 100% false. And when someone comments that those claims are false, they get called "Windows-fanboys" or something.

Seriously: What I have been telling here is that we should resort to truth instead of BS. That's it.

"Artie McStrawman"; what the hell is THAT crap about? How on earth is "let's not spread lies" a strawman?

This thread is about the next generation of vaporware from MS. We've been through this over and over again-- because of their size, market share, resources, and brutal business practices, MS has learned that they can kill competition just by feigning entry into a market. Many here have simply been disillusioned with Redmond and react strongly to the same techniques over and over.

If you look at all the things Longhorn and Vista were meant to be, and then you look at what it is, there's a huge disparity. Some of that is lack of execution, some of that is seeding the market with "dare not oppose us" rhetoric. When a thread like this comes up, I'm not surprised in the least to see all those chickens come home to roost. They deserve it.

I see we have YET another who read but does not understand what he reads. What we had in this thread were claims that were quite simply BS. People were making ludicrous claims that were not true. And when I said that their claims are not true, I got called "Windows-fanboy" and god knows what.

There are PLENTY of things to complain about when Windows and Microsoft are concerned. I think Vista is utter crap, and I'm not alone with that opinion. But that still does not mean that we should make claims about Vista that are quite simply not true. OR do you feel that lying about Microsoft and Windows is somehow justified? If you are, then how exactly are we any different from the FUD-machine that we call "Microsoft"?

What I have been saying is that we CAN talk about Windows without resorting to lies. And that is what we SHOULD do. Telling hyperbole and lies simply makes us (the Mac-community at large) seem like untrustworthy, fanatic fanboys.

To the extent that their tactics work-- and they do-- the backlash needs to be big enough for them to stop. I don't understand why people always act so shocked that a Mac oriented site would be a hotbed for radical anti-Windowsism.

Go right ahead and hate Windows and/or Microsoft with vengeance. But base your opinion on FACTS, not BS. What we have seen in this thread is lots and lots of BS, and that BS is what I have been struggling against.

Is that when the G5 was running circles around any Pentium Intel threw at it besides the overclocked chips that cost a fortune? I know that the G4 chips in the laptops were a joke, but the G5 blew past the Pentiums.

G5 never "ran rings" around anything. It was competetive with x86-CPU's, but that's about it. G4 was getting killed by x86, G5 restored parity between two architectures. And even with G5, PPC was falling behind. G5 was simply not suitable for notebooks for example.

Nice spin on things.

In reality, PPC was significantly superior to anything Intel or AMD had in many respects

And in many respects, PPC was inferior. It was occasionally better, but it always fell behind a bit later. G5 restored parity between x86 and PPC, but it too started falling behind.
 
If people disparaged products simply because they didn't come from Apple, you'd be right, Artie McStrawman. But, in reality, Mac users typically disparage inferior products wherever they come from.

It just happens that Microsoft is best at supplying inferior products.

*********! The M$ Platrofm has better:

- Messaging systems (Exchange)
- Collaboration (Sharepoint)
- Games (by a very long margin)
- File Manager (Windows Explorer - still a lot better than crappy Finder!)

so whilst I still choose to use Macintard, Winblows is not entierly bereft of ideas to contribute to the mix thank you very much. Have some perspective. Both platforms are very much short of perfection!
 
G5 never "ran rings" around anything. It was competetive with x86-CPU's, but that's about it. G4 was getting killed by x86, G5 restored parity between two architectures. And even with G5, PPC was falling behind. G5 was simply not suitable for notebooks for example.

I will admit that the G5 wasn't the greatest chip, but it was certainly a better competitor than the Pentium 4s. There were enough benchmark tests on it to show that it did run faster than the Pentiums in many regards, but it did run hot as hell to, which is why they could never fit the chips and the 10 pound liquid cooling system in a PowerBook.

*********! The M$ Platrofm has better:

- Messaging systems (Exchange)
- Collaboration (Sharepoint)
- Games (by a very long margin)
- File Manager (Windows Explorer - still a lot better than crappy Finder!)

so whilst I still choose to use Macintard, Winblows is not entierly bereft of ideas to contribute to the mix thank you very much. Have some perspective. Both platforms are very much short of perfection!

Honestly, if that's all that sets Microsoft above the Macintosh in your opinion then there isn't much MS could really add. I like the hardware diversity in the PC market, but that's about it. No one really uses Exchange for anything, and Mail is a far superior messaging system for the general and power user that needs efficiency and ease of use.

Games are a niche market and File management is on par with Mac OS X. And in other areas of computing Mac OS X has the better hand and has had it for years.
 
Seriously: Am I speaking hebrew, or why is it that you guys simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND what I have been saying? What I have been saying that you guys have made claims in this thread that are quite simply 100% false. And when someone comments that those claims are false, they get called "Windows-fanboys" or something.

Really? Why don't you count up the number of people calling Mac users 'fanboys' and the number of people calling Windows users 'fanboys'. It's probably 10:1.

The point that you refuse to understand is that Mac users almost invariably use both - and therefore have a point of reference to make a decision as to which is better for them. More often than not, Windows users have never used a Mac any significant time, yet still insist on berating the Mac and Mac users.

Which one better fits the description of 'fanboy'?

Seriously: What I have been telling here is that we should resort to truth instead of BS. That's it.

"Artie McStrawman"; what the hell is THAT crap about? How on earth is "let's not spread lies" a strawman?

Most of what you're saying about Mac users amounts to strawman arguments. For example, you claimed that Apple switching from PPC to Intel was some kind of loss for Mac users and they were hypocritical for using Intel machines. If you're not bright enough to figure that out, get someone to explain it to you.

*********! The M$ Platrofm has better:

- Messaging systems (Exchange)
- Collaboration (Sharepoint)
- Games (by a very long margin)
- File Manager (Windows Explorer - still a lot better than crappy Finder!)

so whilst I still choose to use Macintard, Winblows is not entierly bereft of ideas to contribute to the mix thank you very much. Have some perspective. Both platforms are very much short of perfection!

Hardly.

Exchange is no better than many messaging systems used by Unix, and therefore Mac OS X. In many respects (such as security), it's far worse.

I don't know about collaboration - in fact, I don't know a single person who uses it. So you may be correct on that one - but who cares?

Games? Sure. I'll give you that one. I've never denied that if your objective is to get every fps that you can get out of a given game that you should get a PC box. But most of those people have multiple boxes, so why not use the PC for games and the Mac for everything else - which it generally does better. Of course, that completely ignores the fact that games are third party apps and MS can hardly take credit for them (of course, you'll try, but that doesn't make it real).

File management? ROTFLMAO. Windows explorer is a confusing POS. We have more files lost due to Windows crappy file management than I could count. Not to mention the time wasted as people try to figure it out.

So you've got one real advantage for the people who choose to use it and which is attributable to third parties rather than to Windows. The Mac has vastly superior security, ease of use, productivity, and ability for applications to work together. Sounds like a pretty substantial advantage.
 
Hardly.

Exchange is no better than many messaging systems used by Unix, and therefore Mac OS X. In many respects (such as security), it's far worse.

I don't know about collaboration - in fact, I don't know a single person who uses it. So you may be correct on that one - but who cares?

Games? Sure. I'll give you that one. I've never denied that if your objective is to get every fps that you can get out of a given game that you should get a PC box. But most of those people have multiple boxes, so why not use the PC for games and the Mac for everything else - which it generally does better. Of course, that completely ignores the fact that games are third party apps and MS can hardly take credit for them (of course, you'll try, but that doesn't make it real).

File management? ROTFLMAO. Windows explorer is a confusing POS. We have more files lost due to Windows crappy file management than I could count. Not to mention the time wasted as people try to figure it out.

So you've got one real advantage for the people who choose to use it and which is attributable to third parties rather than to Windows. The Mac has vastly superior security, ease of use, productivity, and ability for applications to work together. Sounds like a pretty substantial advantage.

Couldn't agree more. Being someone who uses both a Mac and a PC a LOT:
Since Tiger came out (and even more now with Leopard) I have only been using my PC when I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO.....and I HATE doing it, ESPECIALLY because of Windows Explorer!

Finder, Security features, and pretty much everything but games, run BETTER on a MAC!

-amr8521
 
I would take Leopard's Finder over Explorer any day of the year

Maybe that is me though

I tried using the one they put in Vista, but it seems to just not find what I'm looking unlike Leopard.

I don't wanna throw myself out there in this Mac Vs. PC shenanigans just personal opinion :p
 
I will admit that the G5 wasn't the greatest chip, but it was certainly a better competitor than the Pentium 4s. There were enough benchmark tests on it to show that it did run faster than the Pentiums in many regards, but it did run hot as hell to, which is why they could never fit the chips and the 10 pound liquid cooling system in a PowerBook.

The G5 wasn't a bad performer. Considering that the lowliest of the g5's, the 1.6, still has an 800 Mhz bus and 64-bit performance, two fairly important specs still comparable to today's low end machines, says something.
 
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