Well we might not agree on the Foxconn issue but I certainly agree with everything you have written in that list especially the ML update.
Seems like I only have MagnusVonMagnum to settle my differences with...
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Nightline's Look into Apple's Foxconn Factories
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Seems like I only have MagnusVonMagnum to settle my differences with...
It has been a productive day.
Actually unionization has been trending downward <NY Times Article Here>
The only area where union membership is up is in the public sector. All of the foreign car companies that set up factories are non-union -- even the Honda factory in OH. The UAW has made many attempts but failed every time.
Unions in 2011 are rather archaic and are breathing only because of politics. They were needed during the industrial revolution but with so many labor laws on the books now, state and fed gov't agencies that do nothing but enforce those laws, a 24/7 omnipresent traditional and social media, the the U.S. worker is hardly at risk from tyrannical bosses. The factory worker in the non-union Honda plant in Marysville, OH has the same wage as the union worker in the GM plant in Lansing, MI. The difference is the non-union worker gets to take home more $ b/c he's not forced to give dues to the union bosses.
But Apple's reason for being in China is not unions, but mostly because China is the most populated country in the world. The Foxconn factory is as big as some cities in the U.S.
I think it's truly a poor decision to outsource labor in America to other countries because it saves money. Doesn't matter if it costs one cent to produce an iPhone over there, it's taking money flow away from here, adding to our economic struggles, and greatly improving their economy. I'm not referring to just Apple, there are plenty, plenty of other big companies doing it as well. As time goes on and on, you'll see Americans regretting trying to save a few bucks and outsourcing. Watch.
I'd gladly pay 20%-30% more for my Apple products if they were produced here. Overall it's spending more now to save a lot later...
I'd gladly pay 20%-30% more for my Apple products if they were produced here. Overall it's spending more now to save a lot later...
If you think when they say it takes five days to build an iPad that that iPad is literally being worked on for 120 straight hours, then you are wrong. Even at these low wages, that would be $200 worth of labor going into an iPad. Of course it is nothing like that. I think labor costs for these devices is supposed to be in the single digits. There has to be drying time and transport to testing spots and such all along the manufacturing process. Just think about the fact that there are only a few hundred parts to each iPad. It probably takes less than a minute to pop in your average part.
But cars cost 60% more in Poland vs. US. So is gasoline and electronics because of taxes.
Also Polish salaries you mention probably after tax. Otherwise income and sales taxes are much higher in Europe.
They even have public toilet "tax" and shopping bag "tax" - these are not free in Europe.
Learn some economics. That is a string of myths and misunderstandings.
Why are you buying goods made outside of your state -- isn't it taking money flow away?
One more thing to consider for all those naively hoping to bring manufacturing back to the west is that the Chinese, as a cultural norm, actually save large portions of their salaries.
The irony, huge numbers of folk in the west use credit to buy all the lovely iToys. Credit backed by those hard working Chinese factory workers.
Globalisation is a wickedly complicated beast, its intricacies are not going to be solved here.
My fear is for the future when the difference between the east and west evens out, then where do we go for cheap labour?
The irony, huge numbers of folk in the west use credit to buy all the lovely iToys. Credit backed by those hard working Chinese factory workers.
Globalisation is a wickedly complicated beast, its intricacies are not going to be solved here.
My fear is for the future when the difference between the east and west evens out, then where do we go for cheap labour?
Apple has made over 25,000,000,000$ profit last year. Assuming they need a workforce of 300,000 to manufacture their products (Foxconn is not their only supplier and Foxconn is not working exclusively for Foxconn, either) they would just need to evenly distribute 50% of their profit (not compromising their investments, not even their management salaries) among this workforce, every worker would get over 40,000$ a year as a bonus alone!
Then stating that less than 2$/h is appropriate, selling high-priced products, sending products around the globe back and forth and at the same time facing one of the biggest economic problems in California with millions of people seeking good jobs is not Globalization or Capitalism, it's Idiocracy! What will our children say? 2$/h - they have to work over 250h to acquire a simple IPad! What did Henry Ford say? "Cars don't buy cars" - and we are still wondering why our economy isn't sustainable...
Then stating that less than 2$/h is appropriate, selling high-priced products, sending products around the globe back and forth and at the same time facing one of the biggest economic problems in California with millions of people seeking good jobs is not Globalization or Capitalism, it's Idiocracy! What will our children say? 2$/h - they have to work over 250h to acquire a simple IPad! What did Henry Ford say? "Cars don't buy cars" - and we are still wondering why our economy isn't sustainable...
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Our children will say you don't know what slavery is, and you had naive ideas about redistributing profits.
How is that a myth? If anything, its economics 101. And there is a difference between outside a state and outside a country... C'mon.
It would be different if China were greatly investing money here, just as we are there, then I would understand the mutual business relationship. However that's not the case.
How nice of Apple to give Nightline permission to go there. How nice of Nightline to give Apple the opportunity to clean things up before they went over there to report on it. How nice of Nightline to present a vague, neutral, story on the "problems" at Apple's factories.
Somehow I doubt car makers or practically any other business in this country would have been afforded such niceties from Nightline. Isn't this the news program that pioneered all the crazy auto crash stories in the 70's and 80's against the auto industry?
Just goes to show how when it comes to Apple's gross hoarding of cash, lack of philanthropy, and manufacturing conditions, people have no problem looking the other way because it's "cool" to have an iPhone.
Somehow I doubt car makers or practically any other business in this country would have been afforded such niceties from Nightline. Isn't this the news program that pioneered all the crazy auto crash stories in the 70's and 80's against the auto industry?
Just goes to show how when it comes to Apple's gross hoarding of cash, lack of philanthropy, and manufacturing conditions, people have no problem looking the other way because it's "cool" to have an iPhone.
China is greatly investing money here, if you knew economics you'd know that a current account deficit has to mean a capital account surplus.
If a country's borders happened to be slightly different, would that make trade harmful across the border?
My only addition to this conversation is the PR angle.
And that is - those that think this is a Foxconn issue and not an Apple issue (or some who phrase it as "how is this Apple's problem?" are being naive.
If your #1 supplier looks bad - you look bad. Period.
Because just like the workers at Foxconn have a choice as to whether or not they work for a company which treats their employees in a certain manner - Apple also has a choice who they do business with.
You can't remove Foxconn from the Apple PR equation. No matter how hard you try.
And that is - those that think this is a Foxconn issue and not an Apple issue (or some who phrase it as "how is this Apple's problem?" are being naive.
If your #1 supplier looks bad - you look bad. Period.
Because just like the workers at Foxconn have a choice as to whether or not they work for a company which treats their employees in a certain manner - Apple also has a choice who they do business with.
You can't remove Foxconn from the Apple PR equation. No matter how hard you try.
I gave a concert in Warsaw. I loved it. As I was living in Paris, everything was amazingly cheap in Poland. I would love to go back there.
Also keep in mind that we don't eat out every meal, so while we can argue it "costs $7.15 per meal", we can certainly budget for less than that by eating home-made food and leftovers rather than buying a meal at a restaurant or cafeteria every single meal.
Thing is though you are not investing in China, you are spending. You don't get a return on paying these folks to make products you consume. The Chinese are investing in the US, a huge amount of Chinese money is covering your ass after the 2008 credit bubble burst. They will get a return, on the bonds they have invested in at some point in the future.
It really isn't a simple as we would all like life to be. Sorry.
No. Workers who have traveled far from their home and are living in dorms do not want to work 5 days and 50 hours a week. They want to work hard and then take a few weeks off at a time where they can travel home and be with family. Also, I think it was reported above that the 12 hour day includes break time to eat two meals. It is no wonder that many of the workers are ready to put in more hours on some days instead of just hanging around at night in their crowded dorms or cafeterias.
While these jobs are too new to have had this impact, you do realize that this level of pay is so high compared to China's cost of living, that these workers could save enough money to retire comfortably to the China countryside at 50. They certainly pay enough that the worker can get married and their spouse would not have to work out of the home. And enough money for a comfortable retirement is possible.
Wage slaves/restaurants
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/22/restaurant-workers-darden_n_1292310.html
Bet you didn't know that minimum wage for restaurant workers can be as low as $2.13 pre-tip versus the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I didn't until I had read the article.
I doubt there are many here that would want to see the prices of their dinners rise a couple of bucks so that the staff earns a living wage, but shouldn't they get the same attention that has been recently focused on the workers at Foxconn?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/22/restaurant-workers-darden_n_1292310.html
Bet you didn't know that minimum wage for restaurant workers can be as low as $2.13 pre-tip versus the federal minimum wage of $7.25. I didn't until I had read the article.
I doubt there are many here that would want to see the prices of their dinners rise a couple of bucks so that the staff earns a living wage, but shouldn't they get the same attention that has been recently focused on the workers at Foxconn?
yeah if you work in service industry you may not even get paid minimum, that is why it is important to tip if your server/bartender treated you well
years back I used to date a girl that worked at Sonic, the one she worked at paid less than min wage because they got tips, she is lucky she has big cans otherwise she wouldn't have been making much
I would argue that comparatively speaking - that's like someone in the US working insane hours, making a ton of money and being able to retire early and "comfortably"
That doesn't mean the hours and work doesn't suck. Nor does it make for a healthy and balanced life "until" retirement perhaps.
Personal choice, of course. Everyone can choose what aspects (or Quality) of life are most important to them.