No 3GHz Soon and No G5 Laptop

[machinehead]

Maybe not a quad 3ghz but possibly and most likely a quad 2.5ghz system. That would surely satisfy all the people upset that a 3ghz dual is not here yet and it wouldn't be hard to do.

Yeah, still say quads are coming. Can't wait.

If there are still heat and yield issues with the 90 nm 2.5 Ghz processors as Apple has said, then probably they would use four of the existing 2.0 GHz processors for the quad machine.

With 4 x 2.0 GHz = 8 GHz equivalent, they wouldn't need top-of-the-line chips for this brute. And, maybe, they wouldn't need to liquid cool them either ... which would hold the cost down.

If it's technically feasible to build a quad G5, presumably price (and the projected low sales volume) is what has held it back.

Still, it might be worthwhile building it (even if few can afford it) to vaporize the Apple vs. PC speed debate forever.

 

[sabbath999]

Still, it might be worthwhile building it (even if few can afford it) to vaporize the Apple vs. PC speed debate forever.

A better idea would be to have distributed rendering.

 

[gothamac]

see

No coincidence here.

 

[seraphnyc]

Gaming these days is more dependent on the video card than the processor. I mean who still runs in software mode. All the work is done by the video card. So in reality, the standard video card provided by apple is rather outdated for gaming.

[edit]You are correct about a bad video card being not the best choice for a Mac, or for gaming.

But on the CPU thing... I must disagree...[/edit]

I am running a MDD 867DP with a radeon 9800 pro 128mb and (now) 1gb of ram running the games of a SATA 120GB HD. Being that I have this kick ass card, I see just how important a processor is in the equation of gaming. Games push the limits of any CPU and video card. Seeing now that my CPU (FSB included) is my bottle neck convinces me that CPUs in gaming matters.

I cannot play games like UT2K4 (A lot of maps require 933mhz or higher) and the upcoming Knights Of The Old Republic (requires 1ghz... Doom 3 may also have similar requirements too) because even tho my video card can kick it into nothingness my processor cannot handle it. This is what I am looking forward too in the G5s... a processor that can handle it.

These speed bumps, regardless of how small, mean more KICK ASS games coming to the mac and hopefully being developed on Macs (Carmack has a fondness for the mac and has admitted to coding a lot of Doom 3 on it, Strange Flavor may become the new Bungie and has dedicated themselves to Mac first games). So not only can I get my work done faster, I can chill out with a hot gaming system. CPU speed bumps are a good thing, not reaching 3ghz is just a slight road block.

 

[seraphnyc]

A better idea would be to have distributed rendering.

or better yet, distributed processing within the box itself (I always wanted to be able to essentially combine my 2 867 processor into one monster processor. Not just for video stuff either... for everything....including games.)... that would rock.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Man the Guy's on AMDZone.com are already Bashing the new G5's ...LOL

And it is true that while the G5 may have reached 2.5ghz they do need to be Liquid cooled which is Expensive to add, this is not good as this means yealds at hight speeds with be even harder to produce with out extensive cooling.

it's funny that AMD is using the same Fish Kills Plant to build thier CPU's and are rolling them out with no prob. AMD will have an Athlon FX-55 and +4200 by Oct/Nov , but IBM can't even put out a 3Ghz processor just pitiful.

I can run an Athlon 64 FX-53 or +3800 quietly and cool with just a Copper Zalman Fan/Heat sink combo , they don't need Liquid cooling + 9 fans just to run normally.

The 9 fans are designed to get it to be quiet. I doubt you'll build an AMD with heat sensors throughout the case and a controller that will change fan speeds to depending on the heat inside the case. The PowerMacs also have various zones inside the case to help facilitate this. I can tell you from experience, the PowerMac is much, much quieter than a big case with four fans and another heatsink fan running at the same speed all the time.

I've built Athlon machines in the past and thet run much louder than the PowerMacs. They also run hotter, in my experience. The thing that Apple appears to be doing is attempting to create a very quiet working machine.

As for AMD's fabs at Fishkill, IBM is doing those. Since AMD has yet to hit 90nm, we don't know if they've run into problems. If their new chips are delayed in the fall then my guess is that all the chip manufacturers will have had problems at 90nm.

Clockrate wise, IBM is already faster than the Athlon64. Let's also see what IBM PPC chip is out by October/November. The Power5 derivative is hitting mass production this summer. It's architectural improvements and multi-threading ability should make the next Apple update interesting.

And I do like AMD on the PC side, but they still have one major problem - Windows. Yes, you could run Linux, but Linux doesn't have the kind of major support the Mac has. Linux is also not as easy to use or as fun as OS X.

 

[tazznb]

Glass Half Full

I'm not disappointed about these updates. While I would've liked to see a more substantial update these machines are still capable of competing with the competition.

Things could be worse.... we could still have Motorolla, and be around 1.52GHz with an amazing 200MHz FSB.

 

[migue]

Hypertransport

Well the G5 (PPC 970) doesn't use HT for its FSB, it is a special IBM bus and it only has one. The Athlon 64 FX has two separate buses to the system, one is an HT bus as I outlined in what you quoted above and the other is a memory only interface (dual channel to PC3200).

Check the specs on AMDs site for clearification. (also note I updated my post to include more information)

So HT is an aspect of the Athlon's CPU system interconnect but not involved for the G5 CPU. However HT is an aspect of interconnect between bridges on the Power Mac G5 mother board.

I'd also read that. It's not really in contrast to what I said. The one who was talking about FSB's at 1.6GHz was a bit confused.

Anyway, it seems that IBM and AMD have some edge in making 90nm chips. They have comparable features and their architectures are not that different. Intel on the other hand, is experiencing some obvious problems and it remains to be seen how much its shift to Dothan from the Pentium 4 will confuse people who used to think only in terms of raw megahertz. Everybody in the industry now knows that pure scaling won't work anymore energywise, hence the focus on bus design, bridges, and dual cores.

 

[Downdivx]

Distributed rendering already announced

A better idea would be to have distributed rendering.

That's already been announced or released for: Shake, Motion, FCP HD, plus Xgrid for special applications

W

 

[seraphnyc]

I'm not disappointed about these updates. While I would've liked to see a more substantial update these machines are still capable of competing with the competition.

Things could be worse.... we could still have Motorolla, and be around 1.52GHz with an amazing 200MHz FSB.

Nice perspecitve.... refreshing actually (especially on a hot day like today)
<no sarcasm>

We could still be grasping to reach 2 Ghz on a 32bit chip with, after the G5, would be considered a lackluster FSB.

 

[Telomar]

As for AMD's fabs at Fishkill, IBM is doing those. Since AMD has yet to hit 90nm, we don't know if they've run into problems. If their new chips are delayed in the fall then my guess is that all the chip manufacturers will have had problems at 90nm.

AMD has already delayed their 90nm chips by the better part of year. They were originally planned for 2003.

 

[yuphorix]

Yes, there are cooling sensors and systems out already. They have temperature monitors component temperature and adjusts the fan speeds. This can be found at. CoolerMaster . And ABS Computers can build a computer with those components installed for those less savvy. Not to mention, the Wavemaster case is one of the coolest cases to come out of the PC world, also made by Coolermaster.

Seraphnyc... I didn't mean to say the CPU doesn't effect performance. I know it does but it has less of an effect on gaming performance than the video card. Also, a bump in processor performance may only be 25% but a pump in video card usually means doubling the card memory, which can have a substantial effect on gaming performance.

 

[nightcap965]

It's a Volkwagen!

The liquid cooling has to be a joke because that's just too funny. The last time I remember any machines being liquid cooled, it was the 1980s and IBM's 3084 mainframe was the size of a room with the liquid cooling.

I guess the PPC970 needs some help, even at 90nm. That's pretty scary.

A blast from the past: We had a sign on our mainframe <mumblemumble> years ago that read,

If it ain't water cooled, it ain't a REAL computer.​

History repeats itself.
History repeats itself.

 

[SiliconAddict]

Go ahead, be stupid. I warned you.

I support IBM ThinkPad T41's day in and day out at work and there are ZERO crashes. We haven't had a BSOD in this office in over a..check that. We've had three all due to a bad batch of hard drives (corrupt sectors in the boot partition tend to make any OS unhappy.) and that happens on even Macs. Other then that Zero in about a 2 year period.

Windows Updates? Ya right. I've not rebooted my home desktop in heck it's got to be 6 months. Every vulnerability that is in Windows is nulled with a firewall. So please. Windows isn't a friendly OS to the average user but for those who are nerds and work with this damnable OS day in and day out we can make it our *****.

FYI - I've never had a single virus\Trojan\Worm or any other type of Malware on my computers EVER. Its all about safe computing. As long as you aren't stupid enough to open and run an attachment from a friend that says: Greatest thing EVER! Run me! You are fine.


And as a followup as to my rant: No way am I going to spend $3,000 on a system that is anywhere from 20%-30% slower then its PC counterpart. I have no love affair with Microsoft or Windows but I'm not going to lube up simple because I want to get away from MS. I'm trying to get AWAY from being screwed by a company. Not go to a different company and simply exchange the tools they use to screw their customer over with. So instead of dealing with semicrapy software from MS I would have to deal with semicrappy hardware from Apple. Great tradeoff.

 

[shawnce]

Man the Guy's on AMDZone.com are already Bashing the new G5's ...LOL

Good for them.

And it is true that while the G5 may have reached 2.5ghz they do need to be Liquid cooled which is Expensive to add, this is not good as this means yealds at hight speeds with be even harder to produce with out extensive cooling.

They don't NEED liquid cooling but it helps to pull heat out efficiently and quietly. It isn't greatly more expensive then fans, it is just an evolution of cooling technology. Other vendors will be following suit in the not so distant future just you watch.

it's funny that AMD is using the same Fish Kills Plant to build thier CPU's and are rolling them out with no prob. AMD will have an Athlon FX-55 and +4200 by Oct/Nov , but IBM can't even put out a 3Ghz processor just pitiful.

AMD is rolling out 130nm parts currently from Fish Kill not 90nm parts like IBM is rolling out with the PPC970FX. In fact the PPC970FX is helping to get the FX-55 out by working the kinks out of the 90nm process. Additionally the clock rate of the FX-55 is not yet known publicly but the current FX-53 (a 130nm part) is topping out at a clock rate of 2.4 GHz if folks are curious. One could assume a 25% increase like is currently seen for the PPC970FX which would mean the FX-55 could be a 3 GHz clocked part.

I can run an Athlon 64 FX-53 or +3800 quietly and cool with just a Copper Zalman Fan/Heat sink combo , they don't need Liquid cooling + 9 fans just to run normally.

Your Athlon 64 FX-53 dissipates 89 watts maximum. The PPC970 running at 1.8GHz dissipates 51 watts maximum (don't have the numbers yet for the PPC970FX which would be less since it is a 90nm part, in theory 40-50% less at the same clock rate based on data for the 90nm process that I have seen not that I believe that fully yet, also don't have numbers I trust for the 2GHz PPC970).

Anyway your box has to remove more heat then the Power Mac would (also consider I believe you are talking about a single CPU system while most of the Power Mac G5s are duals). So you simply must be moving air more quickly with few larger fans which is louder then moving air more slowly with more smaller fans. So I call BS in some regards.

But you are talking about a 2.4GHz part in comparison to a 1.8GHz part you say... Well the PPC970 running at 1.8 GHz is about the same as the FX-53 in performance on many tasks, slower in some faster in others but lets be nice and say it is 50% slower for the hell of it (which it isn't at all). Note that the FX-53 dissipates about 74% more power then the PPC970@1.8GHz.

Simply put the PPC970 is more power efficient then the Athlon FX.

Why the difference? I will leave that up to the reader because I have to get back to work (and I need to stop feeding trolls) but good reasons exist for it (Athlons aren't poorly designed if that is what you are thinking... yes, I actually like FX-53 and family and the PPC970 family they are both great CPUs).

 

[titaniumducky]

Do you really consider this process to be working when it leads to liquid cooled processors. Just how much of a clock rate increase will they be able to squeeze out of such a processor? Maybe you are expecting the next rev to use liquid nitrogen of something.

This whole update is a joke. What we have here is Apple hitting the same wall of stagnation that they hit with Motorola. That and Apple underdelivering to their customers via low spec components in their PC's.

Everyone here has to realize that ATI and Nvidia have dropped pricing on their older cards dramtically to make room for the new high performance cards. The cards in these machines are so much off the mark for new produciton hardware that it is an embarassment to even consider these machines.

I think what Apple did is reconfigured the machines so they can make even more of a profit off them with the hopes that the customer base doesn't have a clue. Fortunately the majority of the customer base does have a clue and has been walking away from this hardware for years now. You would thing that not makeing their own sales projections would clue the management team at Apple in a bit. Nope just offer more of the same in their minds should correct all of those slaes failings. For somebody that really admires OS/X it is rahter sickening that we have to deal with a company that is so oriented to screwing the cusotmer.


Dave

Water cooling keeps it quieter - it's pretty likely that water cooling and the 90nm process can take the G5s a lot farther than 2.5GHz. That's the introduction heat for water cooling; it can probably take us a little beyond three. Then we hit 65nm...

 

[pjkelnhofer]

it's funny that AMD is using the same Fish Kills Plant to build thier CPU's and are rolling them out with no prob. AMD will have an Athlon FX-55 and +4200 by Oct/Nov , but IBM can't even put out a 3Ghz processor just pitiful.

AMD cannot put out a 3GHz processor either. You do realize that the Athlon 64 3800+ runs at 2.4GHz and that 3800 is a "speed rating".

 

[CTerry]

Oh boo hoo. Apple hasnt reached 3 GHz, its the end of the world as we know it!

These machines are obviously aimed at businesses. Very very few consumers need or want a machine with this amount of power. I mean come on, how many of us use applications that actually use this vast amount of power? Photoshop once in a while maybe, but beyond that not much, and in my experience, Photoshop runs great even on a 1 GHz G4.

These are aimed at businesses, who need the absolute cutting edge. Businesses will like that they can config these machines to hell, they can create a machine for them, and they wont mind the prices too much, cos how many businesses want to sit around building machines? Businesses can afford it, because they'll make the money back in terms of profit. OK so it has a 5200, but if you're a recording business do you need a decent graphics card? No, but you will appreciate the G5s S/PDIF capability very much. If you're a graphics company, upgrade to the 9800 XT, and so forth.

Im sorry, but no one here is a big business, in fact based on everyones attitude most of the people here are 15 year old whiners, who arent particularly likely to get a PowerMac anytime soon.

I have my suspicions that Apple will be introducing a G5 iMac soon, that should cover the needs of the high end consumer more than enough. Lets be honest here, as much as I love Macs, if you need a fast computer and you're a consumer, you're probably gaming, in which case you shouldnt really be considering a Mac.

 

[macenforcer]

Dell vs Apple

Here you go. I priced a Dell with similar specs as the new top of the line 2.5ghz dual mac.

Apple 2.5ghz Dual Powermac

- Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5 512k cache per prosessor
- 1.25GHz frontside bus/processor
- 512MB DDR400 SDRAM
- ATI Radeon 9600 XT 128MB DDR video memory
- 160GB Serial ATA
- 8x SuperDrive
----------------------------------
$2999




Dell Precision Workstation 650
- 2 x Intel® Xeon™ Processor 2.66GHz, 512K Cache
- 800mhz front side bus
- 512MB,DDR266 SDRAM Memory,ECC (2 DIMMS)
- nVidia, QuadroFX 500, 128MB, dual monitor VGA or DVI/VGA capable
- 160GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive with DataBurst Cache™
- 8X DVD+RW/+R
--------------------------
$2,741




So you see they are very similar. For the extra $258 you get SATA, higher ram capacity and speed, better video card (ATI Radeon was not an option) faster front side bus. I selected the closest processor in mhz to the G5 but I am assuming a faster Xeon would be on par with the G5 so att another $2209 to go to the top of the line 3.2ghz with 2mg cache. What a jump huh?

So, macs are a better value. Hope this solves this debate once and for all. Cheers.

 

[yuphorix]

Hehehe, Silicon Addict... I'm basically in the same boat as you. I buy what makes sense and my loyalty is to myself only. I also have considerable experience with Windows XP, Linux, and OSX and I find that each one has their strengths and weaknesses. With my Windows XP system, it has crashed once and it was due to the java runtime machine, which now causes many problems with Safari on my ibook. Other than that, it has ran perfectly and I've gotten some viruses but they've all been caught by Mcafee and no damage was done. None of the viruses were critical though. It's true that it takes a good amount of not only computer experience but windows system experience to keep one running in top shape. OSX is relatively easy to understand, but when you dive into the X11 and Unix world, things get just as complex too.

 

[BeigeUser]

The biggest problem

I see that some people don't think that reaching 3GHz in the Powermacs is very important. But they need to understand that if the Powermacs don't keep going up, the Powerbooks, iMacs, iBooks, and eMacs cannot move up either. And that's where the sales are. The 970FX (assuming that the new G5s use the 970FX) still seems to be a problem. The move to 90nm did not increase the clockspeed at all. Without liquid-cooling, maybe we won't even have the 2.5GHz in the lineup.

Considering that the G4 development is dead and the mythical 750VX seems to be only a rumor, the G5 needs to quickly move up in clockspeed and rapidly go down in power consumption/heat production. Neither has happened in one whole year. Now that the Intel development is stuck, this is the time when the PowerPC needs to catch up. If we don't see improved PowerPCs soon, the power balance between the chip makers will not change and we will always be perceived as inferior.

 

[tazznb]

Hmmmmmm.......

Oh boo hoo. Apple hasnt reached 3 GHz, its the end of the world as we know it!

These machines are obviously aimed at businesses. Very very few consumers need or want a machine with this amount of power. I mean come on, how many of us use applications that actually use this vast amount of power? Photoshop once in a while maybe, but beyond that not much, and in my experience, Photoshop runs great even on a 1 GHz G4.

These are aimed at businesses, who need the absolute cutting edge. Businesses will like that they can config these machines to hell, they can create a machine for them, and they wont mind the prices too much, cos how many businesses want to sit around building machines? Businesses can afford it, because they'll make the money back in terms of profit. OK so it has a 5200, but if you're a recording business do you need a decent graphics card? No, but you will appreciate the G5s S/PDIF capability very much. If you're a graphics company, upgrade to the 9800 XT, and so forth.

Im sorry, but no one here is a big business, in fact based on everyones attitude most of the people here are 15 year old whiners, who arent particularly likely to get a PowerMac anytime soon.

I have my suspicions that Apple will be introducing a G5 iMac soon, that should cover the needs of the high end consumer more than enough. Lets be honest here, as much as I love Macs, if you need a fast computer and you're a consumer, you're probably gaming, in which case you shouldnt really be considering a Mac.

Ever run Maya, and video, and do 3D / video rendering, and audio (high end), etc. thought not.

The world is no longer flat; it's much more out there than photoshop (which I love).

Rendering in Maya (depending on what you're doing) can eat ALL of two gigs of ram, and ask for much more.

 

[iMAC G5dreamer]

Regarding imacs guys ,dont you think that we would have heard more about IMacs g5 and not just that they have not been restocking the g4,i think that maybe after all imacs g5 are not going out this summer,but if they do im surely a buyer,im dying to get one,and rid myself of the old G3 ibook system

"Dear god steve could you please give me my dream after years of waiting,pleaseeee"

 

[jiggie2g]

The 9 fans are designed to get it to be quiet. I doubt you'll build an AMD with heat sensors throughout the case and a controller that will change fan speeds to depending on the heat inside the case. The PowerMacs also have various zones inside the case to help facilitate this. I can tell you from experience, the PowerMac is much, much quieter than a big case with four fans and another heatsink fan running at the same speed all the time.

I've built Athlon machines in the past and thet run much louder than the PowerMacs. They also run hotter, in my experience. The thing that Apple appears to be doing is attempting to create a very quiet working machine.

As for AMD's fabs at Fishkill, IBM is doing those. Since AMD has yet to hit 90nm, we don't know if they've run into problems. If their new chips are delayed in the fall then my guess is that all the chip manufacturers will have had problems at 90nm.

Clockrate wise, IBM is already faster than the Athlon64. Let's also see what IBM PPC chip is out by October/November. The Power5 derivative is hitting mass production this summer. It's architectural improvements and multi-threading ability should make the next Apple update interesting.

And I do like AMD on the PC side, but they still have one major problem - Windows. Yes, you could run Linux, but Linux doesn't have the kind of major support the Mac has. Linux is also not as easy to use or as fun as OS X.

I can build a top of the line AMD machine , house it in a something like a Cooler Master Wave Master Which looks wayy better than the ugly Cheese grade and is also made of Anodized Alu.

Actually most good PC mother boards now have a heat management system built in them example : ASUS has Quiet "n" Cool which adjust the CPU fan speed/Voltage/and Speed Frequency/ then u got Speed Step in the Processors all based on heat output . you can put temp gauges and Fan Controllers in the 3.5" bays. PC's have wayyy more options when it comes to stuff like that. Mac don't let u control this stuff from the Desktop.

Actuallty most Sources Say that AMD is moving along well with it's 90nm productions and should be here this fall. and By the Way didn't Tom Boger Already say that they don't expect 3ghz chips anytime soon prob not till Macworld SF '05

....so please stop wishing on a star.

 

[aswitcher]

Regarding imacs guys ,dont you think that we would have heard more about IMacs g5 and not just that they have not been restocking the g4,i think that maybe after all imacs g5 are not going out this summer,but if they do im surely a buyer,im dying to get one,and rid myself of the old G3 ibook system

"Dear god steve could you please give me my dream after years of waiting,pleaseeee"

Steve has to have some good stuff for WWDC. Screens are looking good but I think the long suffering iMac line is a pretty sure bet - even if its a new look G4 capable of taking a G5 at some later date...