No FireWire in MacBooks

[Le Big Mac]

Hard disk-based cameras aren't the be all/end all. I'm certainly not trying to claim that. But they shouldn't be completely ignored, either.

hard disk cams shouldn't be ignored, but neither should miniDV cams. Obviously hard disk cams are gaining ground because people don't need the space or flexibility of MiniDV.

FWIW it doesn't make sense for apple to "force" people to buy a MBP. They could do that by dropping the MB altogether. Instead, it's probably an effort to segment the line further so that they can have a "budget" laptop that doesn't cut into salesof the MBP to the extent the MB previously did.

 

[polaris20]

hard disk cams shouldn't be ignored, but neither should miniDV cams. Obviously hard disk cams are gaining ground because people don't need the space or flexibility of MiniDV.

FWIW it doesn't make sense for apple to "force" people to buy a MBP. They could do that by dropping the MB altogether. Instead, it's probably an effort to segment the line further so that they can have a "budget" laptop that doesn't cut into salesof the MBP to the extent the MB previously did.

I agree completely. While I don't like Mini DV that much any more personally, that market is a huge one that should not be ignored, which it quite obviously is being ignored by Apple.

 

[Milk*is*tasty]

About the quality of DV vs. HDD. What you store video on has nothing to do with quality. They aren't formats per se, only storage devices. Most video on HDD is still running on the same codecs and containers as the DV-based stuff. Nobody really cares about the consumer level anyways, because people are stupid and ignorant, and couldn't care less if the camera they use store chroma in 4:2:2, 4:4:4 or 4:2:0. They don't understand it, and they don't see it, and to get anything out of it, you'd need professional lighting and colour correction anyways.

The only interesting aspect of HDD based storage is at the professional level (look at RED for instance, I hope Sony and all the other old farts go out of business, because frankly, I'm tired of their lame ass formats). New formats and new codecs. Now that's interesting. What I store my stuff on physically? Not interesting at all.

 

[iShater]

One productive way to channel these complaints to Apple is via their MacBook feedback area:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Thank you, I have!

Milk*is*Tasty don't most HDD camera store the video in MPEG-2? so it is already compressed vs. the RAW video in order to fit it on the drive right?

 

[realfx]

heh now I really have no regrets about buying the old macbook three weeks ago. I didn't care about the graphics though, they are sufficient for me.

Word

 

[Milk*is*tasty]

Thank you, I have!

Milk*is*Tasty don't most HDD camera store the video in MPEG-2? so it is already compressed vs. the RAW video in order to fit it on the drive right?

It depends on who makes the camera, and what kind of formats they use. Basically, everything is compressed, nothing is even close to RAW at a consumer level. Cameras based on Sony's formats have a few different kind of codecs. They've actually gone over to MPEG4 now (on AVCHD), but it's still 4:2:0 chroma sampling (same as PAL DV/DVCAM), and it's still at a pretty low bitrate (actually lower than DVCAM on the video side), not to mention that it's interframe (meaning that the compression is integrated over several frames -- basically GOP compression, meaning compressing over a set of frames, making it prone to disasters based on data errors (where the error spreads over several frames, even though the error might only be in on frame originally)).

Basically, the more expensive cameras use better compression. You should always look at stuff like formats, codecs, chroma sampling, bitrate, compression type (intraframe/interframe, GOP/long-GOP etc.) together with what kind of sensor it uses, because that's the important stuff. What the camera uses for storage is of absolutely no interest in terms of what kind of video quality you get out of it.

People seem to think that manufacturers automatically up the bitrate or change the compression when they get a new and better storage device. And as you correctly state, that's just not how it works. They're still on heavily compressed MPEG2 or MPEG4.

 

[polaris20]

Thank you, I have!

Milk*is*Tasty don't most HDD camera store the video in MPEG-2? so it is already compressed vs. the RAW video in order to fit it on the drive right?

Technically HD DV compresses too, though I'm guessing at a lower ratio than hard disk-based systems.

MiniDV tapes can also be used to record a high-definition format called HDV in cameras designed for this codec, which differs significantly from DV on a technical level as it uses MPEG-2 compression. MPEG-2 is more efficient than the compression used in DV, in large part due to inter-frame/temporal compression.[1] This allows for higher resolution at bitrates similar to DV. On the other hand, the use of inter-frame compression can cause motion artifacts and complications in editing.[2] Nonetheless, HDV is being widely adopted for both consumer and professional purposes and is supported by many editing applications using either the native HDV format or intermediary editing codecs.[3]

 

[kage207]

I can see the uses for Firewire but I really don't use it at all. Now I don't do video or have a camera to do these things. I use USB external, I really don't care how fast it goes or not because I just set it to do it's job to back up my computer and walk away. Do something else or just work with it being a bit slow because of transfers. I also haven't used FireWire for my transfers of my movies to my computer but use Ethernet instead, it's pretty fast and I was happy that it transfered 2 movies in about 10minutes or I think. I can't really remember but it was really fast.

Is this a dangerous move? Not really on Apple's part because it's trying to sell the better laptop to people who work more with movie and such on the go. The Pros are nice but I really don't need it. I'm happy with my 'old' MacBook that I got about 2months ago. It'll last me 3-4years hopefully until I'm out of college. Then I will be buying a new one. But they are trying to show off their new Pros to show what it can do with video editing and get people to realize that. The MacBooks have higher graphics for people who watch videos and games. A second thing to note, I've also used iMovie but haven't used a camera. I've used online video to make my videos and I'm happy with iMovie and what my 'old' MacBook does. Is Firewire a huge loss? Yes in a way. But a move they made to sell a better product that they make more profit on to those who are into high end video editing.

 

[Milk*is*tasty]

Technically HD DV compresses too, though I'm guessing at a lower ratio than hard disk-based systems.

Not really related. One is a format, the other is a storage device.

 

[Chaos123x]

All the people saying that they never used firewire is surprising.

I always thought that the Mac market was all about creative people working on videos, music, design.


But most people don't????

What do they use it as a giant iphone for internet, itunes, and e-mail?

Now I can finally really see how PC trolls call Macs a toy.

 

[kolax]

Is this a dangerous move? Not really on Apple's part because it's trying to sell the better laptop to people who work more with movie and such on the go. The Pros are nice but I really don't need it. I'm happy with my 'old' MacBook that I got about 2months ago.

It is a dangerous move. The MacBook was Apple's best selling Mac because of what it offered. Professionals even used it for little bits and bobs that they wouldn't need a full blown Mac Pro to do. For example, recording demos while on the road. They can no longer do this.

If the MacBook had never included FireWire to begin with, no problem. It did, and has done throughout. Now, they've dumped it for no reason other than to promote sales of the Pro.

I wish Apple would just scrap the MacBook/Pro and introduce a new line of laptops under one name, that went from a low cheap end 13" to a high end 13" and a low 15" to a high end 15". Same ports, same design. Just CPU speed, RAM and dedicated/integraded graphics as the differential.

 

[Chaos123x]

It is a dangerous move. The MacBook was Apple's best selling Mac because of what it offered. Professionals even used it for little bits and bobs that they wouldn't need a full blown Mac Pro to do. For example, recording demos while on the road. They can no longer do this.

If the MacBook had never included FireWire to begin with, no problem. It did, and has done throughout. Now, they've dumped it for no reason other than to promote sales of the Pro.

I wish Apple would just scrap the MacBook/Pro and introduce a new line of laptops under one name, that went from a low cheap end 13" to a high end 13" and a low 15" to a high end 15". Same ports, same design. Just CPU speed, RAM and dedicated/integraded graphics as the differential.

Thats what they need to do. This whole idea of artificially gimping products is retarded.

 

[Nabooly]

This sucks, i just bought a Seagate harddrive for my imac and i was planning on using it with my future macbook also. There goes that plan.

 

[polaris20]

Not really related. One is a format, the other is a storage device.

No I realize that, I was just saying that perhaps the MPEG2 files on DV Tape are less compressed (due to manufacture design) than they are on the disk based systems for sake of space on the hard disk.

This is just a guess, not a fact of course. They could be the same exact compression.

Do you know? I'd be interested. Of course this probably varies manufacturer to manufacturer, model to model anyway, so it may be a difficult question to answer.

 

[Sdashiki]

MiniDV does not compress MPEG2, it compresses using DV (1:5)

Another reason tape is going to be better for most anyone with a glimmer of video production in their eyes.

MPEG2 compresses in a way that most systems can not edit directly, another kink in the workflow that uses it.

 

[Cdes]

I am not sure if this has been asked before in this thread, but in the past I have used firewire to transfer movies from my camcorder to my macbook. I want to get a new macbook, but am in a tough spot if I will no longer be able to transfer files from my camera to my comp.

I'm not sure if you need to know what camera I have to answer this question (its a cannon from a few years ago), but anyway, is there a cord to transfer video via usb? or some other method?

or am I going to have to upgrade to a pro or get a new camera?

Thanks,
Chris

 

[cube]

Or the right thing: switch to PC.

 

[147798]

Milk is Tasty has a good point on the fact that storage and compression formats are different, but they are highly aligned. DV Tape uses DV compression, is the least compressed of consumer level, and the best quality, but the longest workflow to ingest in many ways.

DVD recorders use MP2 and can be the lowest quality and hardest to work with.

HD HDD camcorders tend to use MPEG 4 and h264 (both related technologies) the give great compression, but are a bit harder to work with.

Although DV can sometimes be a pain to ingest (having to playback 1:1 time from a camera), it is then the easiest to edit and splice together, though it takes more storage.

DV tape machines are dying, and will most likely disappear.

However, a proper video editing approach is to have different drives for scratch disks, and 800 is the best and fastest approach to this. Of course, the Apple bean counters want those folks to consider a MacPro or a MBP, but not all of us do this for a living, and can afford video studies.

Apple, with the MB, used to offer some reasonably priced basic approach to editing video. In adding the new video chip set, it would have ramped that up even further, however, they took away FW for reasons that we don't really no, but it sure looks like they want to force you to upgrade to the MBP now.

(as an aside: what -- they couldn't at least have added another USB port in place of the FW?) I think the MB is intentionally crippled to drive sales up their food chain. That's their choice, and they have the latitude and right to do it.

Also, on lack of FW -- maybe this also drives the need for the time capsule or other networked storage. FW drives are pretty darn fast and are great for backups. In my own real life tests, my FW drives tend to run 33% faster in file transfers. However, that has let me say "eh, I don't need the time capsule. I'm fine dragging and dropping my critical files." Maybe they know that, and would like to drive more time capsule sales for backups. Just a thought.

 

[polaris20]

I am not sure if this has been asked before in this thread, but in the past I have used firewire to transfer movies from my camcorder to my macbook. I want to get a new macbook, but am in a tough spot if I will no longer be able to transfer files from my camera to my comp.

I'm not sure if you need to know what camera I have to answer this question (its a cannon from a few years ago), but anyway, is there a cord to transfer video via usb? or some other method?

or am I going to have to upgrade to a pro or get a new camera?

Thanks,
Chris

Realistically your options are:

1. Buy a new USB2.0 equipped video camera, such as the Sony hard disk based models. You may or may not like them. I do, but it depends how hifi you want to go.

2. Upgrade to an MBP. Kinda ridiculous, just so you can have a port.

3. Go PC, of which there are a lot of FW equipped models. I recommend Thinkpads.

 

[147798]

I am not sure if this has been asked before in this thread, but in the past I have used firewire to transfer movies from my camcorder to my macbook. I want to get a new macbook, but am in a tough spot if I will no longer be able to transfer files from my camera to my comp.

I'm not sure if you need to know what camera I have to answer this question (its a cannon from a few years ago), but anyway, is there a cord to transfer video via usb? or some other method?

or am I going to have to upgrade to a pro or get a new camera?

Thanks,
Chris

This belongs in the video forum, but if your Canon is using tape, then you can only bring that in via Firewire. However, from several folks on this thread, I'd have to say you don't actually exist, because I've been assured that no one uses FW anymore.

 

[isaacc7]

Or the right thing: switch to PC.

This is really the most distressing thing. Apple is essentially telling me to spend 2 grand to do what I want, I could just as easily spend $700 and go with a windows machine or possible run linux instead. There is good software on both platforms, OS X simply isn't worth $1300 to me. I can't believe I'm actually considering a windows PC after all these years...


Isaac

 

[147798]

Go PC. That's a good one! Very funny

 

[Algalli]

No firewire

Weren't these the same type of complaints when Apple eliminated floppy disks?

 

[147798]

This is really the most distressing thing. Apple is essentially telling me to spend 2 grand to do what I want, I could just as easily spend $700 and go with a windows machine or possible run linux instead. There is good software on both platforms, OS X simply isn't worth $1300 to me. I can't believe I'm actually considering a windows PC after all these years...


Isaac

The newest releases of Ubuntu are supposed to be pretty good. I'd do that before Vista.

Mac has always "just worked" in the past. Stepping away from that value proposition is a little perplexing. Still, they could recant. They've done it before.

 

[isaacc7]

Weren't these the same type of complaints when Apple eliminated floppy disks?

The difference was that you could still use floppies if you wanted to via an external one, or try the new fangled usb things. There isn't a way to get around the lack of firewire for the things that need it. While it's nice to do firewire data back up, it's necessary for a lot of video and audio hobbyists. All of this over a simple port, I can't believe Apple screwed up this badly.


Isaac