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No G5's until (late) 2003

Re: OS sucX

Originally posted by mymemory


BTW, how come here in Venezuela I can get a 1Ghz PC for $400 while the same thing in Apple cost $3.000? I know about the differences but, don't you think we are falling in to a fanatic users market?

What is the price an Apple computer should have to make a PC a better deal? 10.000?
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That is actually pretty funny, and yet sad at the same time because it is true.

I think the best thing Jobs could announce at MWNY is a $1000 price cut across the board. They really need to drop their prices to gain market share.

I know it may be unthinkable for some, but the best way to do this is probably to switch to AMD processors, which are produced in such numbers that the price of the system would be bound to come down.
I think the main reasons PCs blow isn't the hardware so much as the Windows OS, so put OSX on an AMD and show them what it can do at those speeds.
 
Originally posted by eunuchs
/me has a nervous breakdown.
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All right, I feel that was useless...

mymemory, if you are worried about paying 10.000 big ones, the cost for the Twentieth Aniv. was $10000 in USA dinero. So be grateful. :cool:
 
POWER4 information/benchmarks?

OK, so a few people have mentioned the POWER4, and how it's currently blowing everyone else (Intel, AMD, PowerPC, etc.) away.

Since in IBM's marketing materials, it doesn't look the POWER4 runs at a particularly high clock speed (~1.3 Ghz?), can anyone point to the benchmarks that back up the "nlowing everyone else away" arguments?

Not being a troll; I just know nothing about the chip, frankly, and would like to learn more.
 
Re: POWER4 information/benchmarks?

Originally posted by suzerain
OK, so a few people have mentioned the POWER4, and how it's currently blowing everyone else (Intel, AMD, PowerPC, etc.) away.

Since in IBM's marketing materials, it doesn't look the POWER4 runs at a particularly high clock speed (~1.3 Ghz?), can anyone point to the benchmarks that back up the "nlowing everyone else away" arguments?

Not being a troll; I just know nothing about the chip, frankly, and would like to learn more.
Click to expand...

This might be old, but here is a website that has a list of top prefomance processors:

http://www.ideasinternational.com/benchmark/spec/specfp_s2000.html
 
Re: POWER4 information/benchmarks?

Originally posted by suzerain
OK, so a few people have mentioned the POWER4, and how it's currently blowing everyone else (Intel, AMD, PowerPC, etc.) away.

Since in IBM's marketing materials, it doesn't look the POWER4 runs at a particularly high clock speed (~1.3 Ghz?), can anyone point to the benchmarks that back up the "nlowing everyone else away" arguments?

Not being a troll; I just know nothing about the chip, frankly, and would like to learn more.
Click to expand...
IBM's technical overview:
http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/pseries/hardware/whitepapers/power4.html

SPEC_CPU2000 results:
http://www.mtl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~nminoru/memo/spec_cpu2000.html (In Japanese, but the graphs are still readable)

An article about TPC-C results for the pSeries Regatta, in comparison to competitive servers:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/25443.html

If there's any MHz Myth in existence today, I think this CPU epitomizes it. Unfortunately, most Mac users would have to trade in not only their Macs, but also their second kidneys, to be able to afford one, and they haven't ported OS X to the pSeries yet. :)

Alex
 
From what I've read, OS X would merely need, basically, a driver--a 64-bit one--to support the Power4 processor as it stands today. However, Power4 processors run about $80,000 or so. Oh well.
 
Originally posted by rice_web
From what I've read, OS X would merely need, basically, a driver--a 64-bit one--to support the Power4 processor as it stands today. However, Power4 processors run about $80,000 or so. Oh well.
Click to expand...
That's probably not far off... I don't think OS X would need a driver to support the CPU itself, because POWER is supposed to be PPC-compatible, but it would need some updating to support the vastly different architecture of POWER4 machines... or else the POWER4 itself would need to be scaled down to the level of a consumer-level Mac-like computer.

Entry-level POWER4 servers start at just over $40k, but I think the actual CPU module runs around $3k.

And then there is the issue of getting a chip that draws 125 watts into a TiBook... :)

Alex
 
Re: RE: AltiVec will keep Apple ahead

Originally posted by iH8Quark
Okay, one last time. AltiVec SUCKS!!!! It's a marketing smoke and mirrors job. Everyone can do this test at home. Run ANY flash movie on a Mac, then run the same flash file on a PC. These are PURE VPU and / or FPU calculations. The PC (ANY PC) will be insanely faster. Yes, FCP 3 is amazing, but Apple DID write it. I would hope that it runs amazingly on their hardware.

AltiVec is a huge part of the problem, it is NOT the solution.

(I promise I will NEVER ever triple post again. Please don't pie me) ;)
Click to expand...

Flash performance sucks on Macs because A:the plug-in was designed on and built for PC and was then ported to the Mac. You are right though because B:It is pure processor intensive and mhz matters in this area. If it was "AltiVec enabled" it would be better but I don't know how much. I think Apple should switch processors and drop the whole AltiVec thing all together. It's stupid and doesn't do anything for getting PC converts. Most of the apps that do use AltiVec are pro graphics apps and if you do pro graphics you've most likely already been a Mac user for years. Personally, I'm getting a little tired of dealing with the slowness of the Mac. Yeah, it's pretty but it cost too much money to have something that's slowing me down. I will NEVER use Windows so I'm here for now but they really need to get it together. Yeah, we are getting alot of software being made OSX ready but most of them are just carbonized and fairly buggy. Do these carbonized apps even use AltiVec the way they did in 9? They don't act like it. All I'm saying is Apple has an important thing going with OSX. BUT if you are going to make an OS that takes 128mb RAM just to run the desktop then by God make some serious hardware to run it on and use a chip that doesn't require special authoring to use the velocity engine. Because obviously no one is getting on board. I do pro audio and video and a recent app came out that was ready for OSX. Carbonized. It's a little upsetting when a 600mhz Windows machine with 128 RAM is getting more DSP(stereo tracks, effects, etc.) than my maxed out 933. The point is that these developers did not even bother to program for AltiVec. I don't blame them. Why should companies go out of their way to rebuild an entire app for the musicians inside 2 percent of the market share when they can just port it and carbonize it? If they continue to charge all this $ for their "pro" machines maybe they should pay these companies to develop for AltiVec so the machines are actually worth something. Otherwise get rid of AltiVec AlltoGether.
 
G4's will evolve, but little?

G5's won't be available until the END of 2003?

Folks, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've got my ass kicked over this before, and I'm sure I'll get it kicked again...

Apple needs to look at it's future, and DUMP Motorola processors!

Motorola is not doing us any favors, and it's looking worse and worse all the time.

Do you have _any_ idea where AMD and Intel will be in 2 years? Look how far they move in just 6 months these days!

I'm serious. Unless Mac's are destined to become $499 computers, which is about where they will be able to compete at the rate things are going, it's time to work out a deal with AMD.

It has GOT to be done.

TL

Me go duck now...
 
Re: Re: *IF* these rumors are true...

Originally posted by iGAV


Man have you've got issues....... :p
Click to expand...

He may have issues, but he also has good points.

The time for horseplay is over. Apple needs to do something about this processor problem RIGHT NOW.

G5 in late 2003? My god, AMD and Intel will be running 4-5 Ghz by then, most likely, and we'll just be getting 1.5Ghz G5's. Maybe.

Motorola needs to be FIRED. Be done with them.

TL
 
Re: Altivec will keep Apple ahead

Originally posted by gopher
Don't believe those Mhz ratings. It is a myth. Why a Pentium IV is actually slower at RC5 than a Pentium III, and 5 times slower than a G4. Check the ratings at

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/dual_1ghz_performance_test.html
Another place where the G4 is 5 times faster then the Pentium IV:
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/feb/07blast.html

Now this just means you need to demand that more of your Macintosh apps became Altivec native, and tell the developers of those programs how to make their applications Altivec native:

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2002/04/05/altivec.html

The secret is Altivec. At 128 bit processing any program enhanced for Altivec will just scream past the Pentium IV. It is time to get more developers to join the bandwagon
Click to expand...

Oh, please. Let's not start this processor speed myth crap again.

Apple is way behind. Period. G4's are NOT 6 times faster than P4's, or whatever the claim of the month is.

I want to see Apple survive, dammit. And until we get a grip on reality ourselves, as Apple's customers, there's no way the company is gonna get a grip on _itself_ and do what they have to do.

Which is to FIRE Motorola and move on.

TL
 
Re: Re: Altivec will keep Apple ahead

Originally posted by TechLarry


Oh, please. Let's not start this processor speed myth crap again.

Apple is way behind. Period. G4's are NOT 6 times faster than P4's, or whatever the claim of the month is.

I want to see Apple survive, dammit. And until we get a grip on reality ourselves, as Apple's customers, there's no way the company is gonna get a grip on _itself_ and do what they have to do.

Which is to FIRE Motorola and move on.

TL
Click to expand...

Right On! Obviously the majority of software is not and will never take advantage of AltiVec. So GET RID OF IT! As a pro audio guy I'm seeing less reasons everyday to spend the money on a G4 when it's not doing anything for me. Forget AltiVec. Forget the G4. Get a new processor and motherboard and see how high mhz will work for us? Because this velocity engine crap is not cutting it anymore.
 
Do you think Apple reads these forums and knows how unhappy everyone is? I mean, I've never really seen people this unhappy on this forum, and it seems to be getting worse. They must know they're in big trouble, right? I mean, Steve's gonna pull out the big guns soon, isn't he?

i shudder to think what will happen if he doesn't. :eek: :confused: :(
 
If Steve "read these forums" and COULD give us what we wanted, he would have long ago. I'd be frankly embarrassed with my "top of the line" - but only with certain applications. They are great, and then not great at all. We know what is possible, what the market and competition holds, etc. A dual gig is MORE than enough for most people. But if a company thought that way, they'd be dead. The fact is, the world knows that more bang for the buck can be gotten, and Apple needs this addressed.

Getting back to if Steve had the power he'd do it. Well the biggest problem with Apple is that they don't seem to have a lot of power. Look at the sad 18 month drought. If he had a choice, he'd go to IBM to increase the speed. But its been talked so much to death, you all know the specifics. What I'm saying is, don't get your hopes up. And I agree with you. I have NEVER seen people so dissatisfied with Apple.... and I've been using Macs since the first one came out.

It is strange because in the past year or so, Apple has come out with some amazing looking things, amazing software, an amazing operating system. Guess that isn't enough.:(
 
not sure about pulling the big guns, but Jobs certainly knows how to pull rabbits...out of his hat. What is the technical term again ? Oh yes, smoke and mirrors.
:D

Just kidding.
I am sure the guys at Apple have put a lot more thought into this than the rest of us combined. They want to survive, hell, they want to be successful, so I am sure they wont just sit back and watch things happen...

TV shows could learn a lot from Apple: all the drama, anticipation and surprise...whow, I cannot wait for mid-July.
 
hmmm....

everyone is getting restless. excuse while i vent for a moment. right now i have a hot lap and a fan whining in my ear from my TiBook. today was a hot day in NYC. i'm trying to render some video and my machine is too slow. ok, i feel better. now, i've been a mac user since day one but i really think the horizon is looking increasingly grim. we have an amazing OS. but it's very hungry. so are our apps. the apps are getting more demanding and the machines are staying the same. i'm excited about MWNY but i can't help but think we are all going to be a bit disappointed. if 1.2 is the top, dual proc and DDR or not, i won't be impressed enough to buy it. UNLESS, it's fairly priced, which would never happen. Like someone said earlier, people are very unhappy with Apple right now. i love Apple but i've never been more dissatisfied with their hardware. let's hope that these recent rumors on the new specs are all just disinformation, purposely leaked to make us nuts. if not, how could Apple possibly catch up at this point?
 
"I am sure the guys at Apple have put a lot more thought into this than the rest of us combined."
Yeah, that's why they're selling off their stock options.
 
Apps that Use 9

I haven't read through all the posts, but believe me, I am not ready for this, neither is anybody I know. We all use laptops, with one new iMac, and remember Adobe, the big company? Well, to install some of its apps, you have to have a Classic folder, are they going to go all 10 right away, if so, I WANT IT NOW!! and with them out of MacWorld, you can expect they won't have it then, remember its like 2 or even less years until the G5 supposedly comes out. Granted I would like the G5, but I want it in a tiBook, not a desktop. I just don't think the small "Mom and Pop" software companies that I use are not ready for the transition to 10, they still use the 9 for development, along with the occassional games. I could convert every single app that I use, its all under FileMaker Pro, but thats work, and I am too Damn lazy to do that. Now, I believe that not supporting OS9 on the new board, which, by the way, how would they tell if you put 9 on there?, will lose some of the business which they have built up over the years. I go to a high school where 90 % of the Mac computers run OS 9, then another 10 % run 10, which I have to install, now do you tell me that if we upgrade, we have to upgrade to solid 10, most of the apps aren't even out. Making The Grade, Some sort of mathmatical tool, all I do is get on the internet, but still, teachers and some students use them. WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO??????????:confused:
 
Seems like a vector graphic applet like flash would be ideal for altivec, but the only way Apple is going to get dvelopers to optimize their code for altivec, is if they pay someone from Apple to go in and do the work for them.

Motorola has been consistantly holding Apple 2 years behind for at least a decade. Have someone that can get decent yields, such as IBM or AMD to make the PPCs.
 
wait, didn't apple just ask the movie industry

what they wanted in a workstation?
I don't think apple would of asked
them that question without feeling
confident about making thier dream
machine into a reality.

They asked the server market what
they needed and delivered a nice
solution.

I think i'll save my fatalistic meanderings
until after the end of the year.

I think we will be happy in july
and at the end of the year.

Keep a stiff upper lip, if it comes down
to it we can always tell our grandchilred that
we used a Mac as our main system in the old days.
 
Re: Apps that Use 9

Originally posted by hackamacj
I go to a high school where 90 % of the Mac computers run OS 9, then another 10 % run 10, which I have to install, now do you tell me that if we upgrade, we have to upgrade to solid 10, most of the apps aren't even out. Making The Grade, Some sort of mathmatical tool, all I do is get on the internet, but still, teachers and some students use them. WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO??????????:confused:
Click to expand...
Well, the rumors are saying that the new machines won't be able to run OS 9. They'll probably still be able to run OS 9 software via the Classic environment. I wouldn't be too worried - you'll have access to even more software than you did before - practically the entire library of both OS 9 and OS X software. So you can keep using whatever OS 9 software you're using now, unless it's Pro Tools or something that doesn't work in Classic...

Alex
 
Originally posted by TechLarry
I'm serious. Unless Mac's are destined to become $499 computers, which is about where they will be able to compete at the rate things are going, it's time to work out a deal with AMD.

It has GOT to be done.

TL

Me go duck now...
Click to expand...
I don't know what you mean by "work out a deal," but if you mean "get AMD to start manufacturing PPCs," that's probably not possible because AMD needs every bit of production capacity it can muster at the moment to compete against Intel. I can't see how they would be keen on manufacturing chips for a competitor when they don't even have the resources to do so.

Secondly, I don't think it would be wise for Apple to have anything to do with AMD, because it has shown that it is unable to turn a substantial profit even though its product is better than its main competitor's. It is forced to sell its chips practically at or below cost just to keep them competitive with Pentiums price-wise. I don't think their long-term prospects are very rosy - one wrong move and they're screwed. Remember the Intel F00F bug fiasco? If that happened to AMD, it would be all over for them.

How about Apple put P4s in its Power Macs? (JOKE) Heehee, I would predict a mass suicide of Mac fanatics if that were to happen. :)

Alex
 
What ? No more OS9 ?? What about Protools ??

Originally posted by alex_ant

Well, the rumors are saying that the new machines won't be able to run OS 9. They'll probably still be able to run OS 9 software via the Classic environment. I wouldn't be too worried - you'll have access to even more software than you did before - practically the entire library of both OS 9 and OS X software. So you can keep using whatever OS 9 software you're using now, unless it's Pro Tools or something that doesn't work in Classic...

Alex
Click to expand...
Aloha,

I read most of the threads and are we to believe that there is a high probability that OS 9 will not work on the new line of Macs scheduled to be released at MWNY ?? This concerns me because I am a Protools user with plans to purchase one of the new Mac G4's or (G5??) in July specifically for Protools.

I don't think Digidesign is will have PT OS X ready soon, so that leaves a big gap, (at least for ProTools users). If anyone could elaborate or comment on this I would appreciate the input.

What exactly is the rumoured change in the new Mac hardware design that won't allow OS 9 to load??

Hmm...Maybe I should grab one of the good deals on present stock of Mac G4s happening now ??

Regards,
Mark :confused:
 
Re: What ? No more OS9 ?? What about Protools ??

Originally posted by iamspooky

Aloha,

I read most of the threads and are we to believe that there is a high probability that OS 9 will not work on the new line of Macs scheduled to be released at MWNY ?? This concerns me because I am a Protools user with plans to purchase one of the new Mac G4's or (G5??) in July specifically for Protools.
Click to expand...

I don't give too much weight to the "OS 9 will not run on the next generation of desktop Macs, or on G5s"... I have heard no compelling technical reason why this should be so. Even in this thread this rumor was phrased to say, "OS 9 won't work, but classic will" Umm, if classic will, why not OS 9?

The truth is, OS X will be the default Boot OS, and there will be no more development of OS 9, and Steve Jobs did a little stage play where he buried OS 9 in a slide presentation. This does not equate with "OS 9 will not work on new hardware." I bet you will still be able to boot into 9 for some time to come, The move of legacy apps will take longer. It is just that you will have less and less reason to do so.

The rumor is a conflation of other attitudes, mostly attitudes geared towards marketing. Such as " Man, Apple would never put USB 2.0 on a motherboard they want to sell firewire" ( the little guy (apple) cannot close out the larger market, he can only remain compatible), or "I can't wait til I toss OS 9 off my Hard disk forever! Wooo-EEE!". That is, to move ahead you must throw the past away. Not necessarily so. There is a difference between lighting a fire under the slow-to-upgrades tail, and cutting off their legs altogether, and the latter is not an intended goal. It is just that there has to be some push, to keep the developers developing.

MWNY and NAMM are right on the heels of each other... I don't think you have any worries regarding Pro Tools, and you will certainly know more before you could possibly take delivery on either a new Mac Tower or Pro Tools.
 
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