No Mac Pro: Not Fair

[Techhie]

My decision was rational and based on facts; instead of getting the Nahalem i decided to wait, and been waiting for months now. and now im not happy. is that simple.

No, it's not that simple. Professionals do not sell their workstations for the chance of a slightly faster machine, nor can they go without a machine for as long as you have. When you sell your primary method of income based on a probability, you do not classify as a pro, or at least not a sensible one.

"Pro" is a very general term, but most here would classify you as an enthusiast because you obviously do not rely on the machine for sustenance.

 

[deconstruct60]

?
On a current tricked-out MacPro, rendering my current movie takes 8 hours -- WAY too long and it can only be done over night, which means that I lose precious (and expensive) time.

And you have been constantly loosing money over the last 2-3 years because MacPro were just toooooo slow.? There is a difference between you can make more money (and perhaps increase profits) and not making any money at all. If the current machines are "horrible" then nobody was making money with them last year. There doesn't seem to be much evidence to back that up.


Similarly if you need a render farm if decreased render times bring a disproportionate amount of increased profits. It may be necessary to have more than one computer. For example if competitive bid times required a substantive decrease in hours in turn-around-time. If just have a farm of 2-3 nodes you can tick-tock them so that one gets updated at a time. In some cases, it is better to have 3 more modestly priced boxes that give 12 cores than one very expensive box with 12. 3 may add up to a higher cost but if time if that extremely valuable it is worth it.

There is big difference between "it would be nice to render faster" and "there is huge economic difference if render faster".

It is a GREAT disappointment for me that Apple continues to focus on the consumer market (iPad and iPhone, both contents consumption gear) and neglects the professionals (contents creation).

There isn't even that dichotomy. The new MacBook was introduced with no press relase. Not only not a big show, but not even a peep on the press release. The mac mini sat in doldrums for a long extended period.

It looks like Safari 5 is dropping today. Again nary a peep in the main big dog and pony show today. At some point Apple has enough stuff to talk about over a broad range that can't put it all into major production dog and pony shows.

So there is a difference between what Apple's focus is on and what the content of the hype sessions are.

The Mac Pro is late but only by a couple of months if measure with a 365 day window. Apple is a bit distracted, but not particularly any more than over the last decade or so. It is a tad more noticeable now because bigger and have wider product range to dolt over.

 

[Icaras]

People, let's not get back into this whole "Pro" argument again. Whatever business the OP may having wanting to purchase a Mac Pro is really, strictly his/her own. He has every right to complain just as the next "pro" does because in the end, the dollar goes to the very same company, so I really don't see why we should sit here and bicker about his/her particular demographic and why it should concern Apple or us.

 

[cs4160]

i blame the fan boys

If we are on honest about it, we really have all the MAC evangelists and fanboys (most of us on this forum) to blame. Apple goes where the money is. Clearly we have not bought enough over priced MP's, nor sold the benefits to our PC friends, to make a difference.

In fact, to go one further, i blame the health craze (and my wife). If we put less emphasize on exercise, i wouldnt need to buy mobile devices, i could just sit my fat ass at home and look at my 30 inch ACD with the MP that should have been released 8 months ago...damn it...

 

[Consultant]

I'm losing work because i sold equipment and made buying plans based on the availability of new Mac Pro's by June.

Don't just jump into conclusions that easily.

Bull. Professionals don't sell equipment based on rumors and speculations.

Buy another one, unless of course your work isn't worth all that much?

 

[Rhalliwell1]

If we are on honest about it, we really have all the MAC evangelists and fanboys (most of us on this forum) to blame. Apple goes where the money is. Clearly we have not bought enough over priced MP's, nor sold the benefits to our PC friends, to make a difference.

In fact, to go one further, i blame the health craze (and my wife). If we put less emphasize on exercise, i wouldnt need to buy mobile devices, i could just sit my fat ass at home and look at my 30 inch ACD with the MP that should have been released 8 months ago...damn it...

I like your Theory.

 

[-SD-]

I'm rather flabbergasted you'd sell your main workstation hoping that an updated machine would be released this week. Madness.

 

[Techhie]

People, let's not get back into this whole "Pro" argument again. Whatever business the OP may having wanting to purchase a Mac Pro is really, strictly his/her own. He has every right to complain just as the next "pro" does because in the end...

...

Bull. Professionals don't sell equipment based on rumors and speculations.

Buy another one, unless of course your work isn't worth all that much?

Bingo.

 

[Icaras]

...

Convenient that you you stopped my quote right there. I'm pretty sure sentences don't end with "because..."

 

[deconstruct60]

Is not like a whole factory stopped because of this particular sell... i just sold an early 2008 Mac Pro, early enough to hold most of its value,

A machine that is being used on a business basis is deprecated over time. In other words, the machine pays for itself over time (if running a profitable business). If have been using the machine to make money then its cost is down close to zero when chuck it. If it has not dropped, then it is peculiar how you can afford to go on "work vacation" for a couple of months.

Selling off early to get a slightly higher price of on old version is highly indicative that the machine wasn't making money. For this to be a rational move the early sell off "profit" would have to be substantively higher than the profit of using the machine to do work. If work jobs would bring in more money than the very small delta selling early would bring, then this is a extremely dubious move.

There is only a relatively small amount to be made by selling before a new product release. Especially on Mac Pros (and other higher end equipment). The prices don't completely crater overnight. Additionally, with Apple occasionally nuking features folks like, the price might even slightly jump up ( e.g., killing off firewire ports prematurely). The refurb prices don't tank right after an announcement either and those come with more warranty protection than anything you sell off.


Nevermind that a professional cut-over would involve bringing up the new machine along side the old one to make sure that new set up works properly because decommissioning the old box. If there is any software glitch because of the new device you are even more royally screwed because don't have a fallback system. It is like throwing away first tape of a multiple tape backup set before have completely finished the restore.

 

[Techhie]

Convenient that you you stopped my quote right there. I'm pretty sure sentences don't end with "because..."

point is: there are obviously many types of professionals, but he doesn't have the same right to complain if his work means so little to him that he has the ability to arbitrarily sell his primary workstation.

 

[Giganova]

And you have been constantly loosing money over the last 2-3 years because MacPro were just toooooo slow.? There is a difference between you can make more money (and perhaps increase profits) and not making any money at all. If the current machines are "horrible" then nobody was making money with them last year. There doesn't seem to be much evidence to back that up.

My argument is: if Apple would put more effort into supporting professional products (both hard and software), professionals could make more money because they could run their business more effectively. If I had a faster MacPro -- which Apple could without doubt have release months ago if they had decided to throw more resources into this direction -- I could run my business better. Instead, they develop and support their consumer segment with much more resources, neglecting the pro segment. Hence my disappointment today -- again.

The original post had one good argument that got completely ignored here: While it it might be "fun" and "excitement" for most consumers to have rumors and then sudden and unannounced product releases, professionals would like to be able to plan ahead and budget for their next investment. Businesses would benefit if Apple would at least give an estimate when new products are being launched. I know a ton of people who have been waiting for months now for a new MacPro ... is it June? Is it October? That's not healthy for businesses if they cannot plan ahead and budget their investments accordingly. Businesses shouldn't have to rely on rumors and sudden, unanticipated product releases that they need to get their job done.

A lot of people are in a real dilemma for months now: should they wait for an updated MacPro, running the risk that they will invest in hardware that will be outdated a days of weeks later (I once bought a MacBook Pro and within the two days I took to ship it to me a new and faster model was released!), or hold back their investment hoping that a new product will be releases soon? Professionals need a schedule to plan and budget.

 

[deconstruct60]

Convenient that you you stopped my quote right there. I'm pretty sure sentences don't end with "because..."

No it is telling that he stopped it there. It is followed by a quote that the main point here is not him (or anyone else ) transferring money to Apple, but about doing work on the machine transferring money to him.

if machine machine doesn't make him money, it actually makes less difference to Apple when they deliver the machine. One, two, three, months late... what is the difference to someone if going to pull the money out of an income stream that does not depend upon the machine being present or not and is locked into MacOS X. As you were trying to assert, that demographic of person is going to hand over the money anyway. Growth in that demographic gives Apple all the more reason not to be in a hurry to drop something.

Between the growth in that and the very conservative that keep Pros/Displays till they hit the legacy category before upgrading.... there isn't much push for Apple to rush something out the door. Nevermind, the series of hiccups they had with the 2009 version getting corrected this past year. Going faster doesn't sound like it is going to increase quality.

 

[reel2reel]

The original post had one good argument that got completely ignored here: While it it might be "fun" and "excitement" for most consumers to have rumors and then sudden and unannounced product releases, professionals would like to be able to plan ahead and budget for their next investment. Businesses would benefit if Apple would at least give an estimate when new products are being launched. I know a ton of people who have been waiting for months now for a new MacPro ... is it June? Is it October? That's not healthy for businesses if they cannot plan ahead and budget their investments accordingly. Businesses shouldn't have to rely on rumors and sudden, unanticipated product releases that they need to get their job done.

A lot of people are in a real dilemma for months now: should they wait for an updated MacPro, running the risk that they will invest in hardware that will be outdated a days of weeks later (I once bought a MacBook Pro and within the two days I took to ship it to me a new and faster model was released!), or hold back their investment hoping that a new product will be releases soon? Professionals need a schedule to plan and budget.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this way of thinking. Do you think a new Mac Pro is going to save your life? Your career depends on hardware that doesn't exist yet? What on earth are you doing? How do you think people are working right now and making money with such "old" machines? What is a new Mac Pro going to do that you can't do now???

Seriously.

 

[reel2reel]

?
I don't understand what that means. I am in the pro video/film business and I need VERY fast machines to edit HD footage. I've been waiting for an update of the MacPro for months now because I need more processing power to edit and render feature-length movies. On a current tricked-out MacPro, rendering my current movie takes 8 hours -- WAY too long and it can only be done over night, which means that I lose precious (and expensive) time.

So yes, professionals DO lose money by Apple delaying -- again -- the release of an updated MacPro (which hasn't been updated for more than a year).

It is a GREAT disappointment for me that Apple continues to focus on the consumer market (iPad and iPhone, both contents consumption gear) and neglects the professionals (contents creation).

You need to re-evaluate your workflow then. Somehow, I don't think any computer will ever be fast enough for you.

 

[reel2reel]

Gosh you guys are fast on judging people! ja!

Techhie... one can be a "pro", an "enthusiast", or a little bit of both; but a masters degree and over 17 years of Marketing experience have taught me that as consumers, the purpose and application for each buy defines the particular motivations, and triggers different rational or emotional reactions regarding it.

I'm both, i Use a Mac Pro on a Recording Studio, and everything else (MacBook Pro, iPhone, iPad, iPhone) in the emotionally-driven enthusiast role you are implying i exclusively belong.

My decision was rational and based on facts; instead of getting the Nahalem i decided to wait, and been waiting for months now. and now im not happy. is that simple.

Your decision tells me only that you're not very busy. If rendering speed is your only selling point, maybe you should learn some new skills.

 

[macuserx86]

That will never happen.

I can dream can't I?

 

[GiantDolphin]

point is: there are obviously many types of professionals, but he doesn't have the same right to complain

Same right to complain? Who are you to arbitrate who has the right to complain? Give me a break. Get back to work and quit wasting professional time making posts which have no hope of monetary gain.

 

[deconstruct60]

professionals would like to be able to plan ahead and budget for their next investment. Businesses would benefit if Apple would at least give an estimate when new products are being launched.

This ignores two realities.

First "osborne effect". Tell folks too early and everyone stops buying. Unless it is part of some bundled, integrated system stack buy, then need more lead time to line all the ducks up (but that is only to the folks building the stack not necessarily to the end customers). However, no big corporation is going to give a locked in date that is more than a quarter out. It has to do with protecting what they they promise (but cannot necessarily deliver on due to external factors) and trying to unduly manipulate forward looking guidance.

Second, it is not like it is a secret. Once a year you can get a new Mac Pro. Been true for almost a decade now. What more info do you need? Unless the money is in some kind of "use it or loose it" status two-three months later just means incur the bill two-three month later. Having the bill come due earlier would be more of a problem than later.
That is exactly why the Mac Pros should move to the roughly every 12 months schedule the XServe has been drifting to. That way it is a widely shared secret, but Apple doesn't have to explicitly promise. If it just happens then it is predictable without trumpets blaring.

Likewise, the price has been held relatively constant. The new ones cost as much as the old ones did. If you budgeted that way what problem would you have run into over the last 2-4 iterations ? Very little.

What is more critically missing is when things are going to be retired. There is no reason to keep that secret. They can also extend that date without pissing off anyone or unduly tweaking financial guidance. What is missing in the "upgrade" planing is knowing 1-2 years in advance when Apple is going to officially nuke your box. Furthermore, that is far more under Apple's control (as oppose to launches when perhaps using a "new" part and its available has some unexpected bubble). On top of that Apple knows in advance when the date is because they pick it. If you know retirement dates and have a "buy and use for years" strategy you can plan when going to move up. You move up when the windows says and don't worry about trying to "game" upgrades cycle to absolutely maximum delta on upgrade. If wait a couple of years you are typically defacto guaranteed to get a big bump.

Explicit retirement dates and consistent behavior on pricing and frequency of announcements (across a year like timeframe) would make things easy to plan.

It is only the "spec" chasers who have to know the exact date every single year.

 

[deconstruct60]

Same right to complain? Who are you to arbitrate who has the right to complain?

Same right to complain == is in same demographic. Folks in different demographics can have different complaints. However, can't claim rights to complain from someone else's demographic than your own.

 

[Techhie]

Same right to complain? Who are you to arbitrate who has the right to complain? Give me a break. Get back to work and quit wasting professional time making posts in a forum that have no hope of monetary gain.

Don't give me the self-assured "who are you to..." lecture, his (lack of) complaint legitimacy should be obvious from his previous posts. I do not dictate who gets to assume the "pro" status, as it's subjective, but selling a primary workstation at the mere suggestion of an update makes you an enthusiast, not a pro. Professionals depend on their workstations for income, and if he was able to get rid of it so easily, there was not much value in the machine. You are right, I'm not an arbitrator, but I know that the people who earn paychecks from these "outdated" boxes wouldn't risk an undetermined amount of time without them for a speedbump. The update is overdue, but professionals are not suffering any more with minutely slower render times than they would in months without a machine.

By the way, I'm not and never claimed to be a professional, I'm a 17-year-old high school student.

 

[VirtuallyReal]

No, it's not that simple. Professionals do not sell their workstations for the chance of a slightly faster machine, nor can they go without a machine for as long as you have. When you sell your primary method of income based on a probability, you do not classify as a pro, or at least not a sensible one.

"Pro" is a very general term, but most here would classify you as an enthusiast because you obviously do not rely on the machine for sustenance.

Gosh you are persistent... to be more specific, i meant "Pro" in terms of the type of use; pro in this case, means not primarily for PERSONAL use (this machine is used in a recording studio, and is not the only machine around), so, the fact that i do not rely on this only machine to get things running (which you just assumed i did) proves that you are just making assumptions since the beginning; you've been insisting on labeling me as a "enthusiast" while the real purpose of this thread was to express that this type of machines are not intended primarily for PERSONAL use, so the update's time frames should behave differently; you just don't know (nor is your business) how many other Machines do i own, and you are just assuming i stopped working because i sold that early 2008 mac pro... you insist on calling me an "enthusiast" because i actually sold that computer partly considering some info given on this very own community "buyer's guide", you are focusing on the personal, non-relevant aspects of my thread, and seriously, i haven't seen you making any actual contribution to the subject i'm bringing up; if you don't get the point by this far, you just don't relate, and that's fine, but many others have, so thanks, maybe there's a bunch of other posts here were you could be actually helpful.

 

[adamwc]

I have an early 2008 Mac Pro. I use it exclusively for video editing, which is my sole source of income. I'm able to edit multiple streams of ProRes HD footage (FCP) and finish (Color) and output (Compressor, DVDSP) without hiccups. However, I would like to be able to do this faster. Motion hiccups with 16gb of RAM and fast RAIDS. One hungry app!

I usually skip Mac Pro generations, so I'm waiting for what Apple comes up with next. I hope that the next MacPro has whiz-bang equivalent in my content-creation world to what Apple is putting out with the iPod/iPad. Mostly, I want bigger pipes, more bandwidth and more data processing power so that renders don't take as long and workflow is more responsive.

That said, I'm incredibly happy with the performance of my machine. The fact that this machine is paying for itself over and over again is, in a word, fanf-ckingtastic.

I do fear that Apple cares less about the Pro market, but I'm not surprised either. Apple wasn't the best performing stock of the last decade because of sales of FCP and Mac Pros. I'm so accustomed to the elegance of Apple's interface, I can't imagine ever leaving. So far, I have no compelling reason to. But my eyes are open. If superior options emerge on other platforms, I'll migrate. Won't stop me from continuing to use the iPad/iPhone and a Macbook Pro, too.

 

[VirtuallyReal]

People, let's not get back into this whole "Pro" argument again. Whatever business the OP may having wanting to purchase a Mac Pro is really, strictly his/her own. He has every right to complain just as the next "pro" does because in the end, the dollar goes to the very same company, so I really don't see why we should sit here and bicker about his/her particular demographic and why it should concern Apple or us.

1- Should concern Apple since i'm a customer for practically ALL Apple products. All of them. High end Desktops, High end Laptops, phones, iPods, iPads, Software. All of it. So if they don't care about me, would they care about you Icaras?

2- This is an Apple Community, and i posted this on a Apple Mac Pro section of the Forum, a place that exist because people like me care about this type of things; if you are not particularly interested, you just said it: i have the right to complain, or as i prefer to put it, EXPRESS MY OPINION.

If you don't care, feel free to waste your time some place else, thanks.

 

[VirtuallyReal]

Bull. Professionals don't sell equipment based on rumors and speculations.

Buy another one, unless of course your work isn't worth all that much?

Obviously you are not bright enough to think about the possibility that i do not rely on that single machine to get the job done. Now you are insulting my work. insinuating it might be worthless? what place is this?

"Buy another one"? please don't tell me what to do. You go and buy an 18 month old, decaying MP... that's a brilliant advice, hope you are not a tech consultant.