iPhone 13 Pro No Photonic Engine on iPhone 13 Pro?

[Sparky2012]

Hello all,

So like most of you, I watched today’s Apple event.
One of the standout things/features I noticed was the Photonic Engine which utilises Deep Fusion earlier in the photo capture pipeline and aids low light photos.
Now, this feature is coming with the iPhone 14 series however I can’t see that there’s a technical reason for the iPhone 13 Pro models not to get this considering the regular iPhone 14 models are using the 13 Pro cameras along with a new front camera;

A15 Bionic Chip w 5 core GPU - Check
Same or better rear cameras as the regular 14 models - Check
Can upgrade to iOS 16 - Check

The only reasons I can imagine the 13 Pro isn’t getting Photonic Engine are either down to lacking the new front camera or lacking the new flash on the back… or Apple just keeping a feature for the new phones.

Does anyone else have an idea of why Photonic Engine may be withheld from the 13 Pro models?


Cheers

 

[ediks]

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/photonic-engine-and-4k-cinematic-for-13-pros.2357244/

yeah, the 4k for cinematic mode also

 

[mprime_17]

Apple being Apple.

 

[JPack]

Feature rationing has been a thing since the introduction of Siri.

The marketing guys aren't about to let you have Photonic Engine for free.

 

[tudy2525]

Yeah, but in the case of Siri, Apple at least had a reason not to port it: it required the A5 which is much faster than the A4 (and having tried it on an jalibroken iPhone 4, it was sluggish). Now we're talking about virtually identical hardware, unless they secretly tweaked the A15, which I doubt. I think some time in the future, after the 14 is no longer as relevant, they will add it to 13 series, as they've added the new camera interface to XS and Xʀ in iOS14 (being an iPhone 11 exclusive at launch).

 

[callea]

Apple usually does not put software limitations if there are no hardware limitations.
An iPhone 14 has the same hardware as a 13 Pro. Why does the former have the Photonic Engine and the latter not?
I am very disappointed with this bad habit

 

[tudy2525]

Apple usually does not put software limitations if there are no hardware limitations.
An iPhone 14 has the same hardware as a 13 Pro. Why does the former have the Photonic Engine and the latter not?
I am very disappointed with this bad habit

Exactly. I wish we had an official explanation for this limitation but my gut feeling tells me that Apple doesn't really want to talk about it and hope this weird limitation will be quietly forgotten.

 

[JPack]

Apple usually does not put software limitations if there are no hardware limitations.
An iPhone 14 has the same hardware as a 13 Pro. Why does the former have the Photonic Engine and the latter not?
I am very disappointed with this bad habit

On the contrary, they usually do.

iPhone 7 can save in HEVC, iPhone 6s can't.
iPhone 8 Plus added Portrait Lighting, when it was proven iPhone 7 Plus could do the same.
iPhone XS got Smart HDR and Depth Control while X didn't.

The most recent one is ProRes 4K being disabled on 128GB models. Even iPhone 7 had enough storage speed to handle 4K video. But Apple wants you to buy 256GB iPhone 13/14 Pro.

 

[OhMyMy]

Apple usually does not put software limitations if there are no hardware limitations.
An iPhone 14 has the same hardware as a 13 Pro. Why does the former have the Photonic Engine and the latter not?
I am very disappointed with this bad habit

I believe it has something to do with the new ISP from what I read.

 

[tudy2525]

On the contrary, they usually do.

iPhone 7 can save in HEVC, iPhone 6s can't.
iPhone 8 Plus added Portrait Lighting, when it was proven iPhone 7 Plus could do the same.
iPhone XS got Smart HDR and Depth Control while X didn't.

The most recent one is ProRes 4K being disabled on 128GB models. Even iPhone 7 had enough storage speed to handle 4K video. But Apple wants you to buy 256GB iPhone 13/14 Pro.

The iPhone 7 has a dedicated HEVC/HEIC encoder, iPhone 6s doesn't.
iPhone 8 Plus has A11 Bionic with NE for portrait lightning effects, iPhone 7 Plus doesn't.
iPhone XS has an improved A12 chip with a new ISP and/or better processing for Smart HDR.
ProRes 4K, being a really high quality video format, not only it will fill up 128GB quickly but also the 128GB base models have slower SSD write speed, so maybe there's the limitation.

All of these apparent software upgrades that you mentioned have at least a credible, somewhat justified HW upgrade to back them up - in all of these cases we're talking about a clearly different chip than previous gen, enough for Apple to justify not back-porting them to previous gen. Yes, if you ask me, I think Apple could find some software workarounds for certain HW limitations, but as long as they have an escape card, they won't.

But Photonic Engine, Action Mode and 4K Cinematic mode don't have any apparent justified hardware requirements behind them. iPhone 13 Pro has a BETTER camera system the 14 (better ultrawide with macro and extra telephoto) and the SAME A15 5c GPU chip. I could have swallowed the idea of 13 Pro not getting all of these features if the 14 also had an A16 chip, but it doesn't.

 

[callea]

I believe it has something to do with the new ISP from what I read.

ISP is in the SOC, isn't it?

 

[JPack]

The iPhone 7 has a dedicated HEVC/HEIC encoder, iPhone 6s doesn't.
iPhone 8 Plus has A11 Bionic with NE for portrait lightning effects, iPhone 7 Plus doesn't.
iPhone XS has an improved A12 chip with a new ISP and/or better processing for Smart HDR.
ProRes 4K, being a really high quality video format, not only it will fill up 128GB quickly but also the 128GB base models have slower SSD write speed, so maybe there's the limitation.

All of these apparent software upgrades that you mentioned have at least a credible, somewhat justified HW upgrade to back them up - in all of these cases we're talking about a clearly different chip than previous gen, enough for Apple to justify not back-porting them to previous gen. Yes, if you ask me, I think Apple could find some software workarounds for certain HW limitations, but as long as they have an escape card, they won't.

But Photonic Engine, Action Mode and 4K Cinematic mode don't have any apparent justified hardware requirements behind them. iPhone 13 Pro has a BETTER camera system the 14 (better ultrawide with macro and extra telephoto) and the SAME A15 5c GPU chip. I could have swallowed the idea of 13 Pro not getting all of these features if the 14 also had an A16 chip, but it doesn't.

HEVC encode/decode has been available since A8 iPhone 6. It's how FaceTime calls are encoded.

The rest of your claims have been debunked as well, you can look those up.

ProRes 4K is only 100MB/sec. Anything since iPhone 7 with 128GB can handle the write speed.

In the past, Apple has done annual SoC upgrades, so it's always been "justified" through "oh, it needs a new SoC to handle that." Do you seriously think Apple needs a neural engine to apply Portrait Lighting?

 

[juanmaasecas]

The iPhone 7 has a dedicated HEVC/HEIC encoder, iPhone 6s doesn't.
iPhone 8 Plus has A11 Bionic with NE for portrait lightning effects, iPhone 7 Plus doesn't.
iPhone XS has an improved A12 chip with a new ISP and/or better processing for Smart HDR.
ProRes 4K, being a really high quality video format, not only it will fill up 128GB quickly but also the 128GB base models have slower SSD write speed, so maybe there's the limitation.

All of these apparent software upgrades that you mentioned have at least a credible, somewhat justified HW upgrade to back them up - in all of these cases we're talking about a clearly different chip than previous gen, enough for Apple to justify not back-porting them to previous gen. Yes, if you ask me, I think Apple could find some software workarounds for certain HW limitations, but as long as they have an escape card, they won't.

But Photonic Engine, Action Mode and 4K Cinematic mode don't have any apparent justified hardware requirements behind them. iPhone 13 Pro has a BETTER camera system the 14 (better ultrawide with macro and extra telephoto) and the SAME A15 5c GPU chip. I could have swallowed the idea of 13 Pro not getting all of these features if the 14 also had an A16 chip, but it doesn't.

They’re giving us a good reason to jailbreak.

 

[tudy2525]

HEVC encode/decode has been available since A8 iPhone 6. It's how FaceTime calls are encoded.

The rest of your claims have been debunked as well, you can look those up.

ProRes 4K is only 100MB/sec. Anything since iPhone 7 with 128GB can handle the write speed.

In the past, Apple has done annual SoC upgrades, so it's always been "justified" through "oh, it needs a new SoC to handle that." Do you seriously think Apple needs a neural engine to apply Portrait Lighting?

Just because it works in FaceTime, doesn't mean it's the exact same thing as in the Camera/Photos app, for example encoding a high quality 4K in HEVC (compared to FT) and for the SSD speed, I was just assuming, I don't know if it's a real or not, this is why I said maybe.

I don't really know if Apple needs a NE/A11 to do Portrait effects per se, but it probably accelerates the responsivness of the effects, as per one user from Twitter: "My iPhone X heats up if I take too many Portrait Lighting photos in a row. I can’t image how bad that’d be on the 7’s."
Also John Gruber said that "My understanding is that these effects aren’t enabled on iPhone 7 Plus because performance was really slow at capture time. It really does require the A11 Bionic chip for adequate performance live in the camera. And Apple decided against shipping it as a feature for iPhone 7 Plus that could only be applied in post, because that felt like half a feature. So I’ve heard."

I'm not saying it is truly justified if you ask me, this is why I said that some thing could be worked around is software, but justified for Apple as an escape card. This is the first time we have a new flaghip iPhone with the same chip as last year's AND also new features added to the processing done by the same chip, as far as I can tell. We have the 5C but as that phone didn't have any extra new features processing-related. And also the SE2 and 3, but even tho they have the same flagship chip of their generation, they have inferior camera hw.

Anyway, I hope they will bring these new camera functions in a future update, as they have brought the QuickTake interface to Xʀ and Xs before, which to me that was a clear artificial limitation at the time of release.

 

[ediks]

im afraid that the 13 Pros wont get this features, because it would make the 14 (non-Pro) irrelevant since its now more expensive/same price as the 13 Pro (at least in Europe) and it would become inferior in every way

 

[SakeBalboa]

im afraid that the 13 Pros wont get this features, because it would make the 14 (non-Pro) irrelevant since its now more expensive/same price as the 13 Pro (at least in Europe) and it would become inferior in every way

Exactly. This why they immediately take down the flagship (pro) in the lineup but keep 13 and 12. They've been doing this, (yes, I agree with the practice that as a company why keep a competing flagship), but I think this year it's more stark due to the chip being exactly the same.

They even play it up on the official page for 14. Same chip as the iPhone 13 Pro. Yeah? Well, same as 13 "regular" heck even SE.

Exactly. I wish we had an official explanation for this limitation but my gut feeling tells me that Apple doesn't really want to talk about it and hope this weird limitation will be quietly forgotten.

Same here, but I doubt they will. Even if this topic gets more attention they'll just get away with it.

But it doesn't matter does it, official explaination or not, it's their company, it's their product. And if future rumors about this company's ambitions are true then we won't even be able to “own" their devices anymore. Google fooled around with this idea with the launch of Pixel 6 last year. Apple is actually putting it into practice with the inability to service your machine, now killing off the SIM tray in the US, recently more generous Apple Care accident repair, etc.

I see the pros of this sales model for the consumer who wants the latest and greatest. And Apple is betting a majority of those who can and will put money down on a flagship would welcome this change.

Sorry went off topic.

TL;DR: Exactly, Apple doing Apple things. 😒

 

[CalMin]

Software differentiation is a thing. And they will use it to push you to upgrade.

Question is, marketing aside, what real-world benefit will it offer? The iPhone 13 Pro photos are spectacular. iPhone 14 Pro will also be spectacular, but we really are talking about diminishing returns and edge case situations where the 14 Pro will get the shot that the 13 Pro could not.

Pixel-peepers are still better off with a dedicated camera with better optics etc.

 

[menist]

Apple being Apple.

This, pretty sure the SE could do night mode.

 

[jm31828]

Software differentiation is a thing. And they will use it to push you to upgrade.

Question is, marketing aside, what real-world benefit will it offer? The iPhone 13 Pro photos are spectacular. iPhone 14 Pro will also be spectacular, but we really are talking about diminishing returns and edge case situations where the 14 Pro will get the shot that the 13 Pro could not.

Pixel-peepers are still better off with a dedicated camera with better optics etc.

It's interesting how there are plenty of people who say what you did, about the iPhone 13 Pro photos being great- but then lots of others (myself included) who find them to be kind of a mess- sort of crappy, watercolor types of look making details in the images look "mushy", along with the over-sharpening that the phone tries to do.

I was hoping maybe there would be an improvement in that sense on the 14 Pro, but I won't hold my breath, I suspect that even though we are told it's such a big upgrade- in reality it'll be a minor upgrade that won't have much real-world improvement.

 

[daniesy]

Why would one buy the new models if they port the new features to the old generation? If you think about it, the dynamic island could work perfectly on older models as well, but you know apple…

 

[CalMin]

It's interesting how there are plenty of people who say what you did, about the iPhone 13 Pro photos being great- but then lots of others (myself included) who find them to be kind of a mess- sort of crappy, watercolor types of look making details in the images look "mushy", along with the over-sharpening that the phone tries to do.

I was hoping maybe there would be an improvement in that sense on the 14 Pro, but I won't hold my breath, I suspect that even though we are told it's such a big upgrade- in reality it'll be a minor upgrade that won't have much real-world improvement.

Agree. And I should caveat my comments with spectacular for a smartphone. Agree - even my 10-year vintage dSLR with Canon L-glass blows away what can be accomplished with a smartphone sized sensor and glass.

Thing is, when I want to "do photography" I use a camera. When I want be present in the world and capture moments and memories, I use an iPhone or a point and shoot. I no longer carry a point and shoot because the iPhone does such a good job at taking snaps. They are frequently better than I can get on other devices and by "better" I mean that they are more pleasing to look at right off of the device.

Apple's marketing keeps setting up the expectation that these Pro phones will beat out dedicated hardware. And they just don't do that. I mean look at the iPhone 8 announcement video from 2017 (below). At the time I thought I was going to throw away thousands of dollars worth of Canon lenses! And then I looked at the pictures, which were nice, but even my RX100 remained in my pocket for vacations.

And so we arrive at iPhone 14 Pro Photonic engine. I have no doubt it will be better than iPhone 13 Pro without the Photonic engine. But I'll bet money that in most situations, I'm pretty sure that I would be hard pressed to tell the shots apart. Yes - there will be some pics that I can't get without a Photonic engine but probably not that many.

The iPhone 13's lack of a Photonic engine isn't, therefore, going to be a compelling reason to upgrade. I will wait for reviews, but they are going to have to be night and day different for me to think that this year's camera is worth the upgrade for my casual use.

---
The iPhone 8 Intro video camera hype!

 

[Nozuka]

Apple has been doing this ever since the first iPhone and the 3G.
They limited MMS to the 3G, even though it was just software. (You could get it working by Jailbreaking it)

 

[Ozid]

HEVC encode/decode has been available since A8 iPhone 6. It's how FaceTime calls are encoded.

The rest of your claims have been debunked as well, you can look those up.

ProRes 4K is only 100MB/sec. Anything since iPhone 7 with 128GB can handle the write speed.

In the past, Apple has done annual SoC upgrades, so it's always been "justified" through "oh, it needs a new SoC to handle that." Do you seriously think Apple needs a neural engine to apply Portrait Lighting?

ProRes 4K is 100MB/sec, yes. Your phone’s entire storage would be totally filled after 22 minutes of ProRes 4k footage recorded. That’s why they disabled it.

 

[timmehh]

Apple usually does not put software limitations if there are no hardware limitations.
An iPhone 14 has the same hardware as a 13 Pro. Why does the former have the Photonic Engine and the latter not?
I am very disappointed with this bad habit

true, I remember when iPhone 11 got Portrait Lighting effects with iOS 13, it was also made available to the iPhone XS.

If Apple don't officially respond to why Photonic Engine & Cinematic mode up to 4K HDR at 30 fps aren't enabled on iPhone 13 Pro, then everyone should stand united and confront Apple about it.

EDIT: Same goes for the new "Action Mode" video recording improvement...

 

[huanbrother]

Exactly. I wish we had an official explanation for this limitation but my gut feeling tells me that Apple doesn't really want to talk about it and hope this weird limitation will be quietly forgotten.

If you try to access the "iPhone 13 Pro/ Pro Max Spec" page (https://www.apple.com/iphone-13-pro/specs/) by Apple, you'll find yourself being redirected to Apple's main page.

Apple just really don't want people to search for clues why 14 with the same hardware is getting the new algorithm while the 13 Pro/Pro Max are left behind.