No PowerBook Updates Before 2005

[Diatribe]

That's why the recent 12" iBook upgrade wasn't that spectacular. A speedbump - great, but the same 30G hardrive same graphics cards, same memory it's had for the last year. I suspect if the Powerbooks had been updated around the same time we would have seen something a little more dramaitc in terms of iBook, particularly the 12", upgrades.

The only differences now are:

- DVI-Out
- 33Mhz more frontside bus
- better graphics card
- 5400rpm option
- SD option

But... you get the iBook for $500 less. If you compare the 12" to the 12" then the PB sucks. If you compare it with the SD option and the 14" iBook with the SD then the difference is only $250, which is reasonable for the features you get.

 

[aswitcher]

The only differences now are:

- DVI-Out
- 33Mhz more frontside bus
- better graphics card
- 5400rpm option
- SD option

But... you get the iBook for $500 less. If you compare the 12" to the 12" then the PB sucks. If you compare it with the SD option and the 14" iBook with the SD then the difference is only $250, which is reasonable for the features you get.

Those have signficant performance improvements...

+ Screen spanning...

 

[bellis1]

No powerbook, hello imac

I need to replace a rev A 17" PB. It was stolen and I have the insurance money but don't have any other computer so I need it now (like last week). I was ready to slap down $3500 on a new PB 17" but am now at a loss. I need the screen space and portability is not as much as an issue as when I originally purchased it. For the price of a top of the line PB (yet to be seen) I can now get an iMac and iBook or buy an outdated and PB. I guess I'm not the prosumer I thought I was. I sure hope the new PB will be worth the wait. I really think Apple is going to go big and show us that G5 PB in Jan arriving in March. We can complain about the heat issues then. On a side note, does anyone have any idea if the Apple Stores have iMacs in stock at the store or is the wait 3-4 weeks as if you ordered it online. And can they add in memory and a larger hard drive in the store. Looks like i don't get my PB but a G5 imac. I can't really complain.

 

[Diatribe]

Those have signficant performance improvements...

+ Screen spanning...

Which ones are you talking about?

My point being that I think $500 for those features is too much. $250 on the other hand is ok.

 

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Desperately Out Of Place

Hi all, I have a 17" PowerBook and I think it's absolutely great. It serves me well as a portable editing machine. But... I have to admit that the PB is out of place in the current Apple Hardware offerings. The new iBook has closed the gap on the portable range and it no longer appears as a pro machine in comparison. The Dual G5 2.5 units are a huge step ahead in terms of power but not in price so the PowerBook looks like a confused product at the moment.

The pro price is still there but it is way too close to iBook in terms of spec to justify this and too far away from the pro desktops.

To make this machine fill the pro status again, it needs a G5 update which can operate Tiger in March-June 2005. This isn't likely to happen too soon but I dont even think a G4 update would launch it back into the pro realms. It needs the new technology, not just simple upgrades.

(Saying this, I would like to point that I will purchase any new updates that are released because I am a sucker for Apples).

 

[Windowlicker]

My guess is Nov 16/23, right before the mad rush of the holiday shopping season. can Apple really afford to miss out on another peak shopping period like they did with the iMac's in sept? They missed out on back-to-school purchases, then ....

At least, bump up the current line high ends:

15" PB/1.8GHZ/8 X SD/256 VRAM/9800 Mobility

if they don't have much tech to put in there, there's no reason to update. They do need to improve the CPU speed. 1.8GHz won't bet there just yet. 256mb vram? I don't think so. 128mb could be ok though. as for RAM, 512 should finally be made the default on PBs.

 

[deepkid]

My 550Mhz G4 Tibook still handy

That old TiBook is an awesome machine. I used to have one just like it, and it is now serving my nephew up at grad school in Boston. It might be the best laptop I have ever owned. Can't comment on this one yet, as I haven't had it but two weeks or so.

I'm still happily using my 550 Mhz Tibook bought shortly after 9/11. Like a previous poster said, it's amazing what more RAM and faster hard drives can do for performance.

When I needed more power to render video, I simply bought a refurbished 1.6 Ghz G5 powermac from Apple for $1,299 back in July. After tossing in a GB more of ram, it is a wonderful interim solution to buying another powerbook or dual powermac, which is the long-term goal. It's certainly better than my upgraded G4 500 powermac, orginally a G3 266MT with a 66Mhz sys bus.

I can get work done much faster, and wait a while longer to see how near-term powerbook and powermac developments progress. It turns out that the 1.6 Ghz G5 turned out to be more appealing than the 1.8 Ghz that was just released because my sys bus is 800Mhz and I've had a few months use already.

The majority of people likely to buy ibooks do not visit mac rumor sites, so Apple has made an intelligent business decision by lowering the price and upgrading them before the X-mas holidays. Like it or not, they will convince a lot of people strolling into Apple stores along with those estatic with their iPods to consider moving on to one of Apple's computers.

Regarding powerbooks, sales are actually UP over last year this time so not having a G5 powerbook right now isn't a mayday for Apple. From their Q4 report on October 13th: "The company sold 836,000 Macs all totaled. Laptops accounted for 45 percent of all Mac sales (in excess of 450,000 units), with iBook sales up 75 percent year-over-year and PowerBook sales up 21 percent."

If you need more speed today, consider all of your options. There is also refurbed and used if you hesitate to buy a new one because you feel that an update is imminent but not immediate.

 

[JFreak]

Would new PB with G5 at 1.5 GHz only really cut it...I would expect people will want to see at least 1.8 and preferably 2 GHz.

no. the G5 is not as efficient (clock-for-clock) than the G4, which is quite a good chip that is only crippled by the slow fsb. there are three alternatives:

1) moto finds a way to use faster bus and the next release introduces a moderate speed bump together with faster bus.
2) apple finds a way to use a 1.8GHz G5 cool enough in a powerbook, having the same specs than the new imac and the single-cpu powermac.
3) we will see a dual-core monster which hopefully don't have crippled fsb.

...and... of course, there is always the non-alternative of apple still using the slow fsb and put in a 1.75GHz chip, maybe adding L2 cache trying to make up for the bottleneck ;(

anyway, the G5 will have to be faster (in clock) than the G4 to make the update worth it.

 

[lmalave]

Not making that statement would have killed off any sales of the current Powerbooks you mean. Now that people realize that there won't be an update until January at the earliest, there is no sense in waiting around now. As for the eMacs, we'll probably see a quiet update sometime within the next month, probably to a 1.5 GHz G4 I'd think.

Or more to the point, not making that statement would have dampened demand for the new iBooks, since people might be holding out for a new PowerBook instead (especially the 12" model).

Keep in mind the purpose for this revision is really the holiday shopping season. And as a "consumer" product, the iBook is a more likely candidate for a gift than the "professional" PowerBooks. I think it's a great move, if only for the price drop alone. The price drop is targeted squarely at the iPod owner who's now open to the idea of getting a Mac. And one that would be color-coordinated with the iPod, no less. I think breaking the sub-$1000 barrier is important psychologically. I could definitely see more students asking their parents for an iBook now. I think sales figures are going to show a significant bump in demand for the iBooks, and just a steady decline in the PowerBooks that would have happened anyways (similar to the decline in the PowerMac G4s before the G5 came out).

 

[locovaca]

Those have signficant performance improvements...

+ Screen spanning...

And how easily people forget that, without an expensive Analog to Digital converter, you can't use an iBook with any apple display...

 

[MrMoto]

I appreciate the honesty. Apple used to keep all updates so secret that you were always afraid of purchasing... maybe tomorrow, maybe the day after, maybe next week...

I have accepted that technology moves at a certain speed. Sure I want the future now. But hey we only have so much time on this planet. Waiting for the future at the expense of the moment,.. is just too sad.

To that. Apple is not going under as a company because you have to wait a couple of months for the next computer and when that computer does arrive it will be good. It will be as good as the computers are now. (if time is relative then so are computers). So right now the best computer I can get is an apple powerbook (too bad I already have one

relax, and look at clouds once and awhile. they do more for your spirit then a monitor.

wow, a spark of sanity in this whole computer-hope mania.

 

[aswitcher]

Which ones are you talking about?

My point being that I think $500 for those features is too much. $250 on the other hand is ok.

I guess I am saying that there are still some significant advantages of the power over the i book line...but $500USD is a lot.

 

[Stella]

Those have signficant performance improvements...

+ Screen spanning...

iBooks can screen span ( unofficially with hack ! )

 

[thatwendigo]

1) moto finds a way to use faster bus and the next release introduces a moderate speed bump together with faster bus.
2) apple finds a way to use a 1.8GHz G5 cool enough in a powerbook, having the same specs than the new imac and the single-cpu powermac.
3) we will see a dual-core monster which hopefully don't have crippled fsb.

Despite what naysayers are trumpeting at the moment:
1) The MPC7448, which is Freescale's next discrete 74xx core, will have a 1.8ghz core clock and a 200mhz FSB while only displacing 10 watts. This is actually lower power and higher speed, all around, than the 1.5ghz 7447A that is currently in the PowerBook, and probably only requires a modification of the system controller.
2) This is ridiculous. The 1.8ghz G5 consumes 25.6 watts at typical usage, and something like 38 watts at peak usage. While PowerTune is implemented in the 90nm 970fx, it's only a benefit when the chip isn't actively in use, doing nothing to halt the consumption when it's being pushed.
3) Freescale has plans for the second part of next year (if you listen to some), though they might just be taking things conservatively at this point. The MPC8461D is a dual-core e600 with 1MB of L2 cache for each processor (2MB total, actively shared between them on a low-latency bus), two 128-bit AltiVec units (G4s and G5s have one, and the G5's is inferior), on-die memory control that can use DDR or DDR2 up to 667mhz (so there's no FSB, as it's traditionally used), 4 on-die hardware MACs to speed networking, on-die encryption enhancements, and an expected power draw of 22 watts.

Given the massively multithreaded approach that's coming into vogue, especially with the x86 world finally catching on to the idea of using SMP and SMT to enhance performance, it makes more sense to move towards a dual-core professional line. Apple could increment the products with a 7448 in the PowerBooks and bump the 7447A at 1.5ghz down to the iBooks, then do a motherboard revamping in fall of next year to accept 8461 single-cores for iBooks and 8461D dual-cores for the PowerBooks.

Freed of the limitations of a 167mhz bus, using on-die memory control, and with true access to DDR speeds - not to mention to addition of RapidIO 1x/2x/4x (2.5Gb/s per channel) and PCI Express 1x/2x/4x/6x/8x/12x/16x(2.0Gb/s per channel) - there's basically ZERO reason to want the G5 in the portables. It just doesn't make sense, especially since there's little chance of PowerBooks or iBooks going over 4GB in memory any time soon.

 

[belair]

wow, a spark of sanity in this whole computer-hope mania.

Yep, very sane and very true.
Made me look out of the window for a minute.
Gray clouds and yellow trees
…

 

[manu chao]

Dunno, with 1M cache on those pismo. they still hold they weight.

1Gig Ram on a pismo /sarcastic

That 1MB cache on the Pismos runs at 160/200 Mhz (400/500 Mhz model), the 2GB of RAM on the current Powerbooks runs at 167 Mhz, the 512 KB of cache at 1.33/1.5 Ghz.

 

[GroundLoop]

Despite what naysayers are trumpeting at the moment:
1) The MPC7448, which is Freescale's next discrete 74xx core, will have a 1.8ghz core clock and a 200mhz FSB while only displacing 10 watts. This is actually lower power and higher speed, all around, than the 1.5ghz 7447A that is currently in the PowerBook, and probably only requires a modification of the system controller.
2) This is ridiculous. The 1.8ghz G5 consumes 25.6 watts at typical usage, and something like 38 watts at peak usage. While PowerTune is implemented in the 90nm 970fx, it's only a benefit when the chip isn't actively in use, doing nothing to halt the consumption when it's being pushed.
3) Freescale has plans for the second part of next year (if you listen to some), though they might just be taking things conservatively at this point. The MPC8461D is a dual-core e600 with 1MB of L2 cache for each processor (2MB total, actively shared between them on a low-latency bus), two 128-bit AltiVec units (G4s and G5s have one, and the G5's is inferior), on-die memory control that can use DDR or DDR2 up to 667mhz (so there's no FSB, as it's traditionally used), 4 on-die hardware MACs to speed networking, on-die encryption enhancements, and an expected power draw of 22 watts.

Given the massively multithreaded approach that's coming into vogue, especially with the x86 world finally catching on to the idea of using SMP and SMT to enhance performance, it makes more sense to move towards a dual-core professional line. Apple could increment the products with a 7448 in the PowerBooks and bump the 7447A at 1.5ghz down to the iBooks, then do a motherboard revamping in fall of next year to accept 8461 single-cores for iBooks and 8461D dual-cores for the PowerBooks.

Freed of the limitations of a 167mhz bus, using on-die memory control, and with true access to DDR speeds - not to mention to addition of RapidIO 1x/2x/4x (2.5Gb/s per channel) and PCI Express 1x/2x/4x/6x/8x/12x/16x(2.0Gb/s per channel) - there's basically ZERO reason to want the G5 in the portables. It just doesn't make sense, especially since there's little chance of PowerBooks or iBooks going over 4GB in memory any time soon.

I completely agree with everything that you have stated. The only issue is how soon Apple can get the 7448 into the PB line. According to Freescale, the 7448 isn't going to sample until sometime in the first half of 2005. So where does this put the PB for MWSF? Looks like the best we could hope for would be a slight bump with the 7447A or an announcement of a new line using the 7448 that will not be available until around March. Either way, the PB line looks like it will be stagnate for quite some time.

I am glad that I got my 15" 1.25 PB when I did. And I will likely wait to upgrade it until after Rev. B of a dual core architecture is available (WWDC 2006?)

Hickman

 

[manu chao]

Whatever the next Powerbook will have as a processor, I hope they offer the possibility to add up to 4GB of RAM (via two slots would be fine). The 1GB maximum on my 1 GHz Ti-Book is simply not enough, with hard drives being relatively slow on laptops. 2 GB might be fine for now but in a year or two I might need more (and the 2 GB sticks, currently at $500+ will be much more affordable then).

 

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Despite what naysayers are trumpeting at the moment:
1) The MPC7448, which is Freescale's next discrete 74xx core, will have a 1.8ghz core clock and a 200mhz FSB while only displacing 10 watts. This is actually lower power and higher speed, all around, than the 1.5ghz 7447A that is currently in the PowerBook, and probably only requires a modification of the system controller.
2) This is ridiculous. The 1.8ghz G5 consumes 25.6 watts at typical usage, and something like 38 watts at peak usage. While PowerTune is implemented in the 90nm 970fx, it's only a benefit when the chip isn't actively in use, doing nothing to halt the consumption when it's being pushed.
3) Freescale has plans for the second part of next year (if you listen to some), though they might just be taking things conservatively at this point. The MPC8461D is a dual-core e600 with 1MB of L2 cache for each processor (2MB total, actively shared between them on a low-latency bus), two 128-bit AltiVec units (G4s and G5s have one, and the G5's is inferior), on-die memory control that can use DDR or DDR2 up to 667mhz (so there's no FSB, as it's traditionally used), 4 on-die hardware MACs to speed networking, on-die encryption enhancements, and an expected power draw of 22 watts.

Given the massively multithreaded approach that's coming into vogue, especially with the x86 world finally catching on to the idea of using SMP and SMT to enhance performance, it makes more sense to move towards a dual-core professional line. Apple could increment the products with a 7448 in the PowerBooks and bump the 7447A at 1.5ghz down to the iBooks, then do a motherboard revamping in fall of next year to accept 8461 single-cores for iBooks and 8461D dual-cores for the PowerBooks.

Freed of the limitations of a 167mhz bus, using on-die memory control, and with true access to DDR speeds - not to mention to addition of RapidIO 1x/2x/4x (2.5Gb/s per channel) and PCI Express 1x/2x/4x/6x/8x/12x/16x(2.0Gb/s per channel) - there's basically ZERO reason to want the G5 in the portables. It just doesn't make sense, especially since there's little chance of PowerBooks or iBooks going over 4GB in memory any time soon.

This all sounds very well and true but... Apple are not going to sell their PowerBooks based on G4 technology forever. The majority of their customers are buying a brand name as well as technology. The majority of customers are going to be looking for a G5 system.
You are one of very few who actually understands these machines in terms of CPU/processing power and component compatibility. But that is not the case for the majority as I said. If there is a machine with a 1.8Ghz G5 processor, fairly good FSB and an impressive graphics card with a 80-100Gb hard drive then the customers are going to snap them up.

 

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

64-bit technology

4Gb-8Gb RAM will be needed in a PowerBook too, that was a naive comment to make. Apple Motion and soon to be released applications are going to rely on increasing amounts of memory. The 64-bit processor is also needed to take full advantage of the new Tiger operating system and new applications that are bound to be waiting around the corner to take advantage of this technology. They are going to build these machines for the future and the PowerBook needs a 64-bit solution to tackle new applications ie: video editing on the move with the new 64-bit Final Cut Pro HD?

64-bit technology is going to be left, right and centre over the next 12-18 months (especially with Longhorn, Microsofts attempts to tackle 64-bit and HD video technology) and Apple will not sit there with a G4, 32-Bit processing PowerBook that is supposed to be the top of their range!

This means there is a V.Good reason to work the 64-bit technology into their next range of PBooks. Not to mention they are going to want to shift as many copies of Tiger as poss (and any new 64-bit apps).

 

[virividox]

i wonder when!!!

 

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

G5 PowerBook

i wonder when!!!

Tell me about it, I'd be very interested to have a look around their labs right now. They have been working on these machines for a long time (they have even been rumoured to be wandering around with the new technology in old G4 style casing to hide the fact that they are in fact working on it.

I dont deny that there may be a G4 update yet again but I dont think the Dual Processors are going to be ready before the G5.

Who knows... It is going to be very interesting to see what Apple can produce during 2005.

 

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Naive

Last comment before I go and do some work in the real world...

Before anyone gets all sarcastic on me and tells me I'm wrong, I'M NOT!

Read these forums and you will find lots of useful information. Apple have been working on new liquid cooling technology for the G5 PowerBook for quite a while now, as well as new batteries and so on. It appears all of the components are in place to start putting this thing together and as I said before. They are not going to sit there whilst the 64-bit revolution takes over (with Microsofts contributions). They simply wont let the PowerBook fade away with new 64-bit apps and OS being released leaving them with a dual 32-bit piece of kit that is supposed to be Pro-Equipment.

Watch This Space, Apple MUST be working harder than ever to secure their place in 64-bit development - AMD have 64-bit portables available, Apple are NOT going to be too far behind!

 

[thatwendigo]

This all sounds very well and true but... Apple are not going to sell their PowerBooks based on G4 technology forever.

Calling the e600 a G4 is like calling the Pentium M a Pentium 3. While there's a tiny sliver of truth to it, it's ignoring a whole huge bolus of information that you're leaving out.

The e600 cores, past the 7448, will be revamped and use new core logics and registers while maintaining compatibility with the G4e and overall PowerPC instruction set. They are faster, unencumbered by traditional front-side bus limitations, use better memeroy controllers, better support fabrics, and generally rock the boat in the same way that said Pentium M did. All of the major chipmakers are coming to face the truth - efficiency is key, not megahertz.

The majority of their customers are buying a brand name as well as technology. The majority of customers are going to be looking for a G5 system.

WWDC 2005

Steve: "Now, I know we told you that we'd not have a G5 in the PowerBook any time last year, and what we said was true. We all know IBM had some problems, and that promises were made that slipped... There were a lot of issues, some of them with heat and battery power, others with supply, and still others with basic design. It was a hard road, but I'm up here to tell you..."

Crowd starts to cheer, before he even gets the word out.

"We've done it."

Steve clicks his pointer, bringing up three spinning podiums with the new PowerBooks on them.

"I'd like to be the first to present to you, the new Apple PowerBook. Using new technology from Freescale, Apple, and IBM's partnership to develop the PowerPC, we've created a new chip specifically to bring you all the power that we could put into a portable. They have dual cores..." pause for cheers and applause "running at 1.6, 1.8, and 2 gigahertz, with fast DDR2 memory, 7200RPM drives, and a new 8x SuperDrive. In addition, thanks to the PCI Express bus that we've added to the PowerBooks, we're now loading them with modular graphics, starting at the nVidia 6600 Mobile and going up. These are the most expandable laptops we've ever offered, they're the fastest we've ever offered, and we're calling them the PowerBook G5M."

The audience is going wild.

"Oh, and one more thing... Shipping starts in September on the 12 inch and 15 inch models, with the 17 inch following in October."

You are one of very few who actually understands these machines in terms of CPU/processing power and component compatibility. But that is not the case for the majority as I said. If there is a machine with a 1.8Ghz G5 processor, fairly good FSB and an impressive graphics card with a 80-100Gb hard drive then the customers are going to snap them up.

There's just no way a 1.8ghz PowerBook is going to fit into a space that size, not without a ridiculously expensive and custom cooling system. Let me reiterate this, since it doesn't seem to have gotten through from my last post... The 1.8ghz 7448 is 10 watts, the 1.5+ghz MPC8461D is 22-24 watts, and the single 1.8ghz 970fx is 25.6watts. Unless the laws of physics are on vacation, the MPC8461D will slaughter the 970, especially with a crippled FSB.

End of story.

4Gb-8Gb RAM will be needed in a PowerBook too, that was a naive comment to make. Apple Motion and soon to be released applications are going to rely on increasing amounts of memory.

Then get a tower or find 3-4GB DIMMS. Applications like Motion will never run as well on a portable as on a dedicataed desktop machine, and that's not going to change anytime soon.

The 64-bit processor is also needed to take full advantage of the new Tiger operating system and new applications that are bound to be waiting around the corner to take advantage of this technology. They are going to build these machines for the future and the PowerBook needs a 64-bit solution to tackle new applications ie: video editing on the move with the new 64-bit Final Cut Pro HD?

Look, you obviously have no understanding of what 64-bit computing is, how it works, or what it means, if you think it at all affects the general operating system or applications. When the label "64-bit" is applied to computers, it's talking about memory addressing and integer length in math, and that's it. Using 64-bit math and memory pointers will slow down most applications, rather than speeding them up, because you're unnecessarily moving larger hunks of data around.

I really wish this would get through to people. You'd think the megahertz myth had started all over again...

64-bit technology is going to be left, right and centre over the next 12-18 months (especially with Longhorn, Microsofts attempts to tackle 64-bit and HD video technology) and Apple will not sit there with a G4, 32-Bit processing PowerBook that is supposed to be the top of their range!

Right. Sure. Whatever.

If you don't see how the 8461 is more than a G4, then there's no point in even talking to you. Gee golly, look at all those Pentium 3 laptops that Intel's selling right now!

 

[Dalriada]

WWDC 2005 "Oh, and one more thing... Shipping starts in September on the 12 inch and 15 inch models, with the 17 inch following in October."

Trust you were meaning 13 inch.... thanks for the fun ride though, enjoyed very much !