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You most probably never had an opportunity to look at a display with angular resolution of 300+ pixels per degree at normal distance. They [participants in the study] had.


First, difference isn't minimal. Difference is very big. You could say difference between 100 and 400 pixels per degree isn't huge. However, there still is a difference and that difference matters. Why? Here's a quote:

"The higher the angular resolution, the greater the sense of realness, and the sense greatly saturates above about 60 cpd [120 ppd]; above 155 cpd [310 ppd] - images are essentially indistinguishable from the real object."

Image


Not seeing pixelation doesn't mean your eyes can't appreciate higher resolution image, as pointed out by graphs up there.



It makes a difference since higher brightness levels usually mean higher contrast. Higher the contrast - pixels are distinguished more easily. If you need proof, ask.

Did you mess up your red/blue color dots on the enlarged graph? I think as is it is saying that the current imac appears more real than both the double resolution imac, and the retina ipad. Switch the red/blue on the legend and it makes sense.

anti aliasing needs to die.

Remember how people cared about laser printers that do 1200 dpi vs 600 dpi? I don't remember anyone saying 300 dpi is enough....
 
Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this is a good thing.

Depending on the take up (and more importantly, fall out) of the RMBP, Apple may or may not continue down this road for it's desktop offerings.

As long as whatever graphics card inside can power a 'retina' resolution with at least equal performance to current non-retina iMac offerings, great. Though I for one would prefer to use whatever graphics card they select to increase performance at a lower (i.e. current iMac standard) resolution. So, Apple, please - do whatever you want, just give us the option to adjust it to our tastes.
 
I'd love to see Retina iMacs this generation just because the image would be incredible, but I can live without it. Based on the cost of a nicely specced Retina MacBook Pro, a Retina iMac would probably be a little too pricey for me. Plus I'm not going to wait until 2013 or longer to get a new Mac.

If the Retina iMacs hit in July 2012, and they don't cost an arm an a leg, fine, great, I'm there. But if it's out of my price range, or something slated for a later generation, I'll be fine with USB 3.0, and Ivy Bridge.
 
If the Retina iMacs hit in July 2012, and they don't cost an arm an a leg, fine, great, I'm there. But if it's out of my price range, or something slated for a later generation, I'll be fine with USB 3.0, and Ivy Bridge.

Well put and ITA.

I'm holding out for USB3 to better 'future proof' my next iMac without having to get expensive TB or FW HDDs.

The option of a matte screen would be nice, but given what Apple has done to date on the topic I'm not expecting that to happen either.
 
What makes you think those improvements won't filter into the iMacs ? ;) If they save costs...

But frankly what is costly about RAM and flash storage is the actual memory chips, not the plastic PCB, casing and connector parts. The OWC blade SSDs (for MBA) is more expensive than other SSDs on the market. So no, Apple seems quite happy with their margins while keeping the Retina prices low.

I don't think I ever said those improvements wouldn't find their way into new iMacs.

Yes, the ultimate MSRP of an Apple computer (and most everything else) depends on a lot of things, but primarily cost and expected sales. My arguments only relate to Apple's costs. I'm sure they expect to sell a boat load of rMBPs, and so maybe the margins are smaller, compared to the old school MBPs. My only point is that adding a retina display to any computer -- keeping all else equal -- adds a lot to Apple's costs. You almost seem to imply that that's not the case.

Apple doesn't sell many desktops, even iMacs, compared to portables. Their margins are correspondingly higher, and starting prices are lower. They're also consumer oriented machines, so the primary end user is more price sensitive. Furthermore, the LCD panels are bigger; granted, the retina ppi will be smaller, but there will be greater numbers of pixels compared to rMBP. Therefore, if Apple wants to bring retina to existing iMacs, they will have to,

A) Cut costs, but there isn't much room since the iMacs already use cheaper desktop grade components (with the notable exception of the GPU).
B) Shrink margins, but do they really expect a commensurate increase in sales, when portables and iOS devices are becoming increasingly popular?
C) Wait until retina panel yields increase and the cost is more palatable.

I think the general consensus that a non-retina iMac is due this year, with the retina version appearing next year is because Apple is going with C.
 
HD Retina is what is needed

For a lot of people the current 2560x1440 display in the iMac 27" is actually too high so the UI elements and text are very small. A much better solution would be to take full HD resolution and do a pixel doubled version of that for the 27" display (ie 3840 x 2160 pixels). The UI elements would be a lot better sized at that resolution for a retina display but the fonts would be super crisp. And I bet the resolution is easier to achieve than trying to do the full resolution.
 
I don't think I ever said those improvements wouldn't find their way into new iMacs.

Yes, the ultimate MSRP of an Apple computer (and most everything else) depends on a lot of things, but primarily cost and expected sales. My arguments only relate to Apple's costs. I'm sure they expect to sell a boat load of rMBPs, and so maybe the margins are smaller, compared to the old school MBPs. My only point is that adding a retina display to any computer -- keeping all else equal -- adds a lot to Apple's costs. You almost seem to imply that that's not the case.

Apple doesn't sell many desktops, even iMacs, compared to portables. Their margins are correspondingly higher, and starting prices are lower. They're also consumer oriented machines, so the primary end user is more price sensitive. Furthermore, the LCD panels are bigger; granted, the retina ppi will be smaller, but there will be greater numbers of pixels compared to rMBP. Therefore, if Apple wants to bring retina to existing iMacs, they will have to,

A) Cut costs, but there isn't much room since the iMacs already use cheaper desktop grade components (with the notable exception of the GPU).
B) Shrink margins, but do they really expect a commensurate increase in sales, when portables and iOS devices are becoming increasingly popular?
C) Wait until retina panel yields increase and the cost is more palatable.

I think the general consensus that a non-retina iMac is due this year, with the retina version appearing next year is because Apple is going with C.

Precisely. I go for C. And I expect at least a year for that. :)
 
Did you mess up your red/blue color dots on the enlarged graph? I think as is it is saying that the current imac appears more real than both the double resolution imac, and the retina ipad. Switch the red/blue on the legend and it makes sense.

anti aliasing needs to die.

Remember how people cared about laser printers that do 1200 dpi vs 600 dpi? I don't remember anyone saying 300 dpi is enough....
That's what happens when you refuse to check twice. Thanks, fixed.

I agree with you. Some people just refuse to learn. "Here's some new information." -No thanks! I have my own opinion on this and you're wrong.
:rolleyes:
 
Window XP was bad. Vista was bad. What user interface advances are in Windows 7 that make the user more productive and using it more enjoyable?

People always say that the previous versions of Windows were bad, but the current one is great. Yet, other than the ribbon (which is a horrible compensation for badly designed menu bars in Windows and Office), there hasn't been any substantial user iterface changes since Windows95.

O .. rly :rolleyes: .. and you think OS X has substantial UI changes since when? Gray windows is all you get on Mac since when, huh? :rolleyes:
 
I understand your point but you are not making a fair comparison. If you take the new MBP and upgrade the spec to the same as the MBP Retina it works out more expensive. But that assumes that I would want to upgrade the spec.

The point I was making was that £1800 and £2300 for the new MBP Retina is simply too expensive for most people. The fact that the new non-Retina MBP with an upgrade spec would cost £2000 or whatever is immaterial - that's even more of a rip off. It doesn't mean (as you seem to want to suggest) that the new MBP Retina is somehow a bargain. It's still too expensive whichever way you look at it and in my view it will not sell in huge numbers just like the old 17" MBP didn't sell in huge numbers because that was also too expensive.

IMHO Apple has lost all sense of perspective with it's MBP pricing. It's no coincidence that the best selling MBP over the past few years is also the cheapest (13"). £2300 for a 15" laptop. It's just crazy. Thank god there are cheaper options with the 13" MBP and MBA otherwise I would have jump ship back to Windows.

You got that completely wrong. If you look at the pricing, then the logical conclusion is this: 1. The retina display isn't expensive. That's the conclusion from the fact that a Retina MBP is £180 cheaper than a 15" MBP with equivalent specs. 2. Apple has a very, very limited supply of retina displays.

With a very limited supply, Apple makes the best of it and turns every sale of a retina display into the sale of a top-of-the-range laptop. They could sell many more 13" MBPs with retina displays - except Apple doesn't have the displays! The manufacturing rate will grow, and as it grows, the displays will move to the cheaper Macs.
 
O .. rly :rolleyes: .. and you think OS X has substantial UI changes since when? Gray windows is all you get on Mac since when, huh? :rolleyes:

The last big UI change in Mac OS was in 2001 (well 2000 if you count Mac OS X beta). They've only added stuff and made it more convenient since then. The color of the windows doesn't matter as long as it's not something weird.

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Window XP was bad. Vista was bad. What user interface advances are in Windows 7 that make the user more productive and using it more enjoyable?

People always say that the previous versions of Windows were bad, but the current one is great. Yet, other than the ribbon (which is a horrible compensation for badly designed menu bars in Windows and Office), there hasn't been any substantial user iterface changes since Windows95.

Um, is it supposed to be good to change the UI frequently? Does the UI need to change over time besides just adding higher quality? Apple has just been upgrading the Mac OS X UI since 2000. MS has been upgrading the Windows UI since Windows 95. Nobody needs a huge change if it's good enough already. The problem is that the Windows UI isn't good enough already ;)

And, obviously, the only reason Apple changed its system so much in 2000 was because Steve Jobs had recently come back, and they switched back to UNIX. Windows also went to NT around that time but without any UI changes.

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There is also a difference between not taking the latest OS (often a comercial decision) and hardware tech obsolescence. My 2005 mac mini works as well the day I bought it but on Tiger only

Exactly. People don't seem to get this. Well, my iMac is a special case because the GPU in it was faulty (thanks, NVIDIA, never buying from you ever again). The GPU failed after about 5 years, maybe 4, so crashes are frequent unless I make my fan speed higher and have a cool environment (still somewhat frequent though).

If I have everything I need on my computer (OS, apps, etc) right now, why would I need to upgrade later?

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Windows 7 isn't bad. It's just how people take care of them.

Not that many people seem to be taking care of their Macs the wrong way. I tried Windows 7. It was a great improvement over Vista and had the best Windows UI yet, but it used a lot of RAM. Also, after about a week, it suddenly stopped being "genuine" for no reason. This is a big problem that a lot of people have with it. If using Internet Explorer a couple of times so I can get Safari and such is "taking care of it wrong", then I don't know what "taking care of it right" is.
 
Apple discontinued the 30" cinema display and the 17" Macbook Pro, didn't they? People who needed the pixels the 17" MBP offered can now get a 15" Retina MBP and adjust the scaling to their liking. I guess the 30" cinema display didn't sell that well since other manufactures make 30" displays with that resolution for the fraction of the price.

People have been complaining about the resolution of the 15" Macbook Pro for a while. Apple kept it this low so they could simply double (we,, quadruple to be exact) the pixels and there would be no scaling issues, just like on the iPhone and iPad.

the iMac displays are a little bit sharper at the normal viewing distance, so doubling the resolution on both axis might not be necessary for getting into retina territory (i.e. you can't discern the pixels at normal viewing distance).
The current iMacs are 21.5" and 27". I could imagine something like 20" and 26" as new iMac sizes so that it works out with affordable retina displays.
 
I agree. Retina on the 27" isn't really necessary yet. I would love it if were re-designed based on the ideas used to create the MBP Retina:

Thinner
All flash / SSD storage
Minimum 8GB of RAM
Ivy Bridge processors
Nvidia Kepler GPU
improved speakers and mic
Thunderbolt & USB 3.0 ports
No DVD Drive

I like your dream spec very much. To that I would like to add :

Better WiFi bandwidth, a/c protocol? Integrated keyboard with trackpad. Black keys on the keyboard (so that I don't have to wipe it every week). I am hoping for a MacBook Air type of "thin" with 17" screen (now that the 17" MBP is phased out). Call it iMac Lite which does light tasks like browsing, messaging, iChat, words, numbers spreadsheet etc. Can play light games like Angry Birds but definitely not Modern Warfare. And yea, touchscreen baby, with that nice oleophobic screen.
 
I like your dream spec very much. To that I would like to add :

Better WiFi bandwidth, a/c protocol? Integrated keyboard with trackpad. Black keys on the keyboard (so that I don't have to wipe it every week). I am hoping for a MacBook Air type of "thin" with 17" screen (now that the 17" MBP is phased out). Call it iMac Lite which does light tasks like browsing, messaging, iChat, words, numbers spreadsheet etc. Can play light games like Angry Birds but definitely not Modern Warfare. And yea, touchscreen baby, with that nice oleophobic screen.

Your idea is great! :) You better send that idea to Tim Cook.
 
...so doubling the resolution on both axis might not be necessary for getting into retina territory (i.e. you can't discern the pixels at normal viewing distance).
Wouldn't you like to have a display that makes anti-aliasing obsolete? Or a display that, when you put it next to a display with double pixel density - look the same as that display? [same as one with double pixel density]
You see where I'm going here?
 
It makes a difference since higher brightness levels usually mean higher contrast. Higher the contrast - pixels are distinguished more easily. If you need proof, ask.

Yeah except the LED has more contrast and the poster I replied to was claiming that due to higher contrast, maybe text seems "less" pixelated, not more.
 
O .. rly :rolleyes: .. and you think OS X has substantial UI changes since when? Gray windows is all you get on Mac since when, huh? :rolleyes:

True brother. At least there are still substantial UI advancements in Windows. Windows XP and Windows 7 are incomparable.
 
Retina displays are obviously one place where Apple is trying to make it's hardware stand out above PCs. Can one even buy a 27" display with the same 2560X1440 resolution as the 27" iMac?

As far as resolution goes, I think a retina iMac display at 3840x2160 would be nice. It would be four 1080p displays and 8.2 megapixels. The current iMac is only 3.6MP.

But everyone fails to notice that these panels DO NOT EXIST. No one makes them and sells them. For Apple to sell them, they have to be manufactured efficiently enough to sell for the right price. Apple has billion$ to invest in manufacturing new panels like that. No one else does.

And if it doesn't make sense, Apple won't do it.

There are several manufacturers of 27" 2560x1440 monitors. Dell do quite nice one that I believe has the same screen in it as the iMac.

We hadn't forgotten that these retina panels do not exist. I think you have forgotten that the retina iPhone, iPod touch, iPad and MacBook Pro screens did not exist before Apple introduced them.
 
If I have everything I need on my computer (OS, apps, etc) right now, why would I need to upgrade later?

Security updates. While Microsoft still issues them for Windows XP, Apple doesn't for anything before 10.6.

Connecting a 10.4 system to the Internet is a security risk with all the left over vulnerabilities that Apple hasn't patched in that version, but in later versions.

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I think you have forgotten that the retina iPhone, [...] did not exist before Apple introduced them.

Uh... hate to disappoint you, but Apple was late to the game with a high-res screen on a phone. There were already several Android models shipping quite a few months before the iPhone 4 that had 800x480 or 858x480 screen resolution.

For the others, I'll grant it to you.
 
There is also a difference between not taking the latest OS (often a comercial decision) and hardware tech obsolescence. My 2005 mac mini works as well the day I bought it but on Tiger only

It will struggle on more recent software though. There is more to obsolescence than being able to run the OS a machine came with.

In fact by saying that your Mac Mini will only work with an obsolete version of OSX then surely it proves the point that your Mac Mini is obsolete?
 
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It will struggle on more recent software though. There is more to obsolescence than being able to run the OS a machine came with.

And not all software requires massive amounts of computing power. Just look at every app made for iPhone/iPad.

No, the only real reason to upgrade when everything is running smoothly for your needs is Security updates. Apple makes it real hard to keep on top of it if you're not running their latest and greatest version of OS X.
 
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