No ZFS Support in Leopard?

[adrianm]

It relates to being buried six feet underground, or burial at sea in the required minimum depth of six feet of water.

Doesn't it mean six fathoms of water?

 

[ChrisA]

I sure hope they at least make it an option in some way. Is ZFS compatible with vista? I am about to buy an external Lacie hard drive & need to format it to work both with OS X & XP/Vista. Didn't know once 10.5 is released if I formated the external drive in ZFS if a Windows computer would be able to read/write to it.

ZFS is not the best option for a single drive. I never expected to see it on a desktop Mac. Now if you have a rack of drives on a file server. It's perfect but not on a drive you can plug and un-plug

There is ZERO chance of Microsoft supporting ZFS but then, the way a desktop computer (Mac or PC) would access ZFS is over a network and for that Windows would be using SMB and not have to know the data was in a ZFS file system.

 

[MacVault]

ZFS is not the best option for a single drive. I never expected to see it on a desktop Mac. Now if you have a rack of drives on a file server. It's perfect but not on a drive you can plug and un-plug...

Due to drive failure there should be no such thing as a "single drive". That is a disaster waiting to happen because there is no redundancy in case one drive fails.

 

[smueboy]

I'll be disappointed if ZFS is omitted from Leopard. Seems like the kind of forward thinking thing Apple would jump on. And it makes sense with Time Machine doesn't it?

I'm not giving up hope yet, they may still give users the option.

 

[Episteme]

Due to drive failure there should be no such thing as a "single drive". That is a disaster waiting to happen because there is no redundancy in case one drive fails.

It's probably the most common home and office configuration there is.

 

[akac]

I think I'll just stick with Tiger. <--- Things I never imagined I'd say. I see no incentive for me to spend $200 dollars on what appears to be minimal tweaking at best. Apple had set the climate to blow Vista out of the water, and it didn't really happen. I thought maybe I was just expecting too much - but judging by the drop in Apple stock today, I guess others agree. Tiger has been the most reliable and dependable OS I've ever used, and nothing I've seen today has convinced me to abandon it. Quite a string of letdowns lately.

Minimal Tweaking? I suppose if a current Corvette is minimal tweaking from the 1966 Corvette. I'm dead serious. Leopard has the most major changes in it than any other previous OS X release. Just because Jobs didn't mention all of them in his lame keynote doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[twoodcc]

well i'll be disappointed if this turns out to be true. i really want to see ZFS in leopard

 

[SeaFox]

It's official:

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/12/1521254&from=rss

I love that first comment:
Haven't you learned anything Sun? Nobody scoops Steve Jobs.

 

[peharri]

Stop the presses: Apple says ZFS WILL be in Leopard

From Information Week:

#
Michael Singer
commented on Jun 12, 2007 2:16:12 PM
Akie, ylon and all,
Thanks first of all for the posts. It's good to see you've found our new comment section for regular news stories. We've had them available on our blogs for some time.

As to the news, it seems that Croll mispoke a couple of times when asked about ZFS in Leopard. Despite direct questions about Sun CEO Schwartz's claims that ZFS is there, Croll flatly denied the reports to two of our reporters in a 1:1 interview.

An Apple spokesperson called us Tuesday seeking to clarify Croll's statement. Croll was apparently supposed to indicate that ZFS would be available as a limited option, but not as the default file system."

We are now writing a separate story to note Apple's mis-statement and hopefully to reveal more about how ZFS would work in Leopard.

We'll update you here when that story is live.

Michael Singer
InformationWeek - West Coast Editor

ZFS appears to be a go after all, albeit not a default.

 

[mikesilv]

Aw, no comment on the pun stuffing.

No, but seriously, though. ZFS and resolution independence in the UI were two things I was looking for. Because they're two features that really kick sand in Microsoft's face. Aero is underwhelming and WinFS was vaporware, even with all the delays.

The top secret Finder has been:

• a redesigned sidebar
• gratuitous use of animation
• built-in remote access and
• a "glass" menubar.

thus far.

Photocopiers, indeed.

Actually, the new Finder also apparently finally contains support for logging into SMB fileshares with packet signing enabled. This is the default from Win2k3 on, to prevent man in the middle attacks. Apple doesn't support packet signing in the Tiger Finder SMB client, so you're currently out of luck in SMB filesharing from 2K3 Server or Vista machines...unless you want to pay Thursby Software $129 for a copy of Dave, or turn down the default security settings on your Windows box. Awesome position to be in after years of beating down MS over shoddy security compared with OS X, and really wins over the hearts and minds of the IT department.

 

[Hopstretch]

ZFS appears to be a go after all, albeit not a default.

The sky is not falling! The sky is not falling!

 

[SeaFox]

The sky is not falling! The sky is not falling!

Read-only access from the command line. We're saved! All we have to do now is boot into an OS that really does support ZFS, copy our files over, and then we can go to the command prompt on the Mac and ---

Wait, why did I get a Mac again?

 

[SeaFox]

It relates to being buried six feet underground, or burial at sea in the required minimum depth of six feet of water.

Doesn't it mean six fathoms of water?

Harlem Globetrotters go to the beach, wade out into the water...
"Hey, I just tripped over something!"

 

[peharri]

Read-only access from the command line. We're saved! All we have to do now is boot into an OS that really does support ZFS, copy our files over, and then we can go to the command prompt on the Mac and

There's nothing in the article I quoted to suggest the "read-only" ZFS support in the beta is the intended implementation for the real thing.

Reading between the lines, it's possible the intent is either to provide ZFS as an optional bolt-on, or for it to be a standard feature of Leopard Server (but even if it's the latter, the underlying infrastructure should be there given it'll be in the base Darwin. Kind of like journaling was available in Jaguar but only GUIfied in the Jaguar Server.)

Updated: (Above included to avoid conspiracy theories) Looks like I'm wrong, certainly the current wording of the new CW article is suggesting the beta's version of ZFS is the final version's.

That's a crying shame. I hope they change their mind in a future point-point-release.

 

[Hopstretch]

Read-only access from the command line. We're saved! All we have to do now is boot into an OS that really does support ZFS, copy our files over, and then we can go to the command prompt on the Mac and ---

Wait, why did I get a Mac again?

And yet some folks claim to be managing to interface with it just fine nevertheless.

According to one InformationWeek reader posting to our forum under the name "Akie," ZFS can be accessed through the Disk Utility program, under the Erase menu. "Sun hasn't got Solaris to run with ZFS as the boot drive, or at least reliably, so ZFS is only available on non-boot drives on Sun systems, so this is also the case for Leopard," said Akie, adding that Leopard includes a new form of RAID called RAID-Z, "which uses ZFS and overcomes one of the major problems with RAID, the write hole."

Seriously, Apple, WTF?

 

[Peacheasy]

The fact that Jobs didn't mention it today leads me to believe that it will be supported optionally, at best. At least, for normal volumes. A filesystem is way too important to keep quiet from developers at a developers conference 4 months prior to a product launch.

It could be that time machine uses the filesystem for volumes selected for it. If this is the case, perhaps they didn't care to nod to Sun and name the FS just because of the leak, or they presume it doesn't matter what time machine uses since its handled by the system under the hood.

I'd really like to know one way or another for sure, though. The time for secrecy with leopard is gone, if in fact they're now feature-complete. They should release a lot more information via FAQ so people can get on with it....

Jobs did mention it. He spoke about 12 features. When he got to Time Machine, he specifically mentioned that HFS was the FS they were going ahead with.

 

[DavidCar]

This is the information Week updated article.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199903525

 

[DavidCar]

Doesn't it mean six fathoms of water?

Six fathoms would make more sense. I rechecked my source and found it didn't specify six what.

 

[elmimmo]

The top secret Finder has been: […]

• built-in remote access and

Excuse me? What is that about? I cannot find it in Apple's page.

 

[inkhead]

I'm laughing at anyone who wants ZFS, but has never used it. Seriously people, Seriously get OUT more.

Most "modern" filesystems have been around for 10+ years before they are put into use.

ZFS is extremely new and needs a few years to be put through the paces. Unless you want Apple to make it the default so they can test your data disappearing? There is a reason it's read only, so you don't cry about your missing files when they just disappear.

I've been using ZFS experimentally for a while now, and it's not up to snuff yet.


"ZFS is in the WWDC Leopard build. It's currently configured for read-only, although full functionality is in there. Write ability is disabled for stability/integrity issues. /System/Library/Extensions:

drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 102 Jun 4 20:48 zfs.readonly.kext"

 

[MacVault]

I'm laughing at anyone who wants ZFS, but has never used it. Seriously people, Seriously get OUT more.

Most "modern" filesystems have been around for 10+ years before they are put into use.

ZFS is extremely new and needs a few years to be put through the paces. Unless you want Apple to make it the default so they can test your data disappearing? There is a reason it's read only, so you don't cry about your missing files when they just disappear.

I've been using ZFS experimentally for a while now, and it's not up to snuff yet.


"ZFS is in the WWDC Leopard build. It's currently configured for read-only, although full functionality is in there. Write ability is disabled for stability/integrity issues. /System/Library/Extensions:

drwxr-xr-x 3 root wheel 102 Jun 4 20:48 zfs.readonly.kext"

Maybe you're correct, or maybe not. I'm not a filesystem expert. BUT - I considered a filesystem change to be worthy of the "Top Secret" hype from Apple. Now since we aren't getting a new filesystem, tell me... what else in Steve's keynote - of the "feature complete" beta - is worthy of the "Top Secret" hype? New Finder.. with the same bubbly scroll bars and street light buttons? New Desktop with a funky Dock "table"? Dashboard? I already have Dashboard so I'm a bit confused as to why Steve highlighted it as one of the "Top Secret" features. BootCamp? We already knew that would be in there. Oh well... I still look forward to using Leopard, but I guess I'm dissapointed at how Apple over-hyped it with all their newsletters, "Top Secret" jargon, etc. Maybe we'll get more by October. I guess we'll see

 

[BSDUser]

I've been using ZFS experimentally for a while now, and it's not up to snuff yet.

Without wishing to drone on about this, there's a hell of a lot of Solaris and BSD users who would disagree with that.

 

[dashiel]

Maybe you're correct, or maybe not. I'm not a filesystem expert. BUT - I considered a filesystem change to be worthy of the "Top Secret" hype from Apple. Now since we aren't getting a new filesystem, tell me... what else in Steve's keynote - of the "feature complete" beta - is worthy of the "Top Secret" hype? New Finder.. with the same bubbly scroll bars and street light buttons? New Desktop with a funky Dock "table"? Dashboard? I already have Dashboard so I'm a bit confused as to why Steve highlighted it as one of the "Top Secret" features. BootCamp? We already knew that would be in there. Oh well... I still look forward to using Leopard, but I guess I'm dissapointed at how Apple over-hyped it with all their newsletters, "Top Secret" jargon, etc. Maybe we'll get more by October. I guess we'll see

1) he is correct. you don't have to be a file systems expert to realize that a technology as new as this and as vital as this is a terrible idea for mass-market adoption.

2) top secret features. if you've followed apple for any length of time you should know by now that their products rarely live up to the hype. they're great to be sure and i own more than i care to admit, but steve is like a magician -- his stage presence and presentation is marvelous.

3) please let's not start another round of "secret builds", "new features in october"... so many people here were expecting "secret features" and a june release that when it didn't happen they got upset... as always people were swept up in hype, rumor and speculation, ignoring reality.

what you saw on monday is what you will get in october.

 

[pengu]

1) he is correct. you don't have to be a file systems expert to realize that a technology as new as this and as vital as this is a terrible idea for mass-market adoption.

2) top secret features. if you've followed apple for any length of time you should know by now that their products rarely live up to the hype. they're great to be sure and i own more than i care to admit, but steve is like a magician -- his stage presence and presentation is marvelous.

3) please let's not start another round of "secret builds", "new features in october"... so many people here were expecting "secret features" and a june release that when it didn't happen they got upset... as always people were swept up in hype, rumor and speculation, ignoring reality.

what you saw on monday is what you will get in october.

while i agree that people can get swept up in the hype, i disagree about the "new features in october".
while some of the 300 "features" will no doubt be minor things, i would be very suprised if there are NO OTHER major features we have yet to see.

 

[HFU]

3) please let's not start another round of "secret builds", "new features in october"... so many people here were expecting "secret features" and a june release that when it didn't happen they got upset... as always people were swept up in hype, rumor and speculation, ignoring reality.
what you saw on monday is what you will get in october.

Wall Street has already responded to AAPL for the lackluster presentation. It is going to drive AAPL downward until October. iPhone launch will help AAPL a bit (probably few days), but in general it is going back to where people were last year. Apple needs to realign it's focus. It is trying to reach out to market segment too quickly, it's going to set itself on fire.